Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Abellio won the franchise, would there be any competition issues? Considering they will be running West Midlands, Northern, and Mersey Rail?

Arriva runs Northern, not Abellio.
Merseyrail is not a normal franchise, and Serco have a 50% share.

 

[northwichcat]

There's a authorisation document appeared on the DfT website today which appears to have the purpose of allowing WG to procure the next franchise and also giving them permission to operate a limited number of services in England. It's been scanned in so can't be copied from: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2188/wales-and-borders-agency-agreement-2.pdf

One interesting observation is the North Wales/Chester to Manchester service can go to Manchester Airport or Stalybridge or Wilmslow! The franchise will not have permission to operate to Bristol Temple Meads prior to 2024. They will be allowed to run up to 1tph between Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn. They also have been told to minimise dwell times at Crewe.

The document also indicates W&B will be prevented from taking on any rolling stock which is needed by other franchises.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't quite understand why but there doesn't seem to be a concern about competition between TOCs - possibly with the amount of regulation they are already under it isn't considered necessary. When Virgin aka Stagecoach took over East Coast the competition investigation focused on a couple of very local areas and completely ignored the fact that all rail communication between London and the East Midlands was in the hands of one group.

 

[gareth950]

There's a authorisation document appeared on the DfT website today which appears to have the purpose of allowing WG to procure the next franchise and also giving them permission to operate a limited number of services in England. It's been scanned in so can't be copied from: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2188/wales-and-borders-agency-agreement-2.pdf

One interesting observation is the North Wales/Chester to Manchester service can go to Manchester Airport or Stalybridge or Wilmslow! The franchise will not have permission to operate to Bristol Temple Meads prior to 2024. They will be allowed to run up to 1tph between Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn. They also have been told to minimise dwell times at Crewe.

The document also indicates W&B will be prevented from taking on any rolling stock which is needed by other franchises.

I haven't got time to read it now, but maybe this is confirmation of the powers finally being devolved to the Welsh Govt that it needs to award the new franchise.

 

[KashmireHawker]

I haven't got time to read it now, but maybe this is confirmation of the powers finally being devolved to the Welsh Govt that it needs to award the new franchise.

Indeed so, with the following wording via DfT's webpage where the document comes from:

"Agency agreement 2 between the Secretary of State for Transport and Welsh Ministers dated 28 September 2017.

The document indicates the approach the Secretary of State for Transport is developing for the future management of the Wales and Borders rail franchise.

The Welsh Government are currently undertaking the procurement of the next Wales and Borders franchise (due to start in October 2018) with support from the Department for Transport."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Basically it puts the WG/TW on a short leash as agents for the DfT for the procurement, and with special protection for English services (eg separate management).
Essentially the Metro/Valleys services will be under full WG control, whereas everything else is subject to the same franchising/Railways Act/EU legislation as other DfT franchises.
It looks to me as though "Wales & Borders" will be (unlike now) in the franchise branding, or at least in the operating company's name.
The Bristol restriction is until the NR upgrades in the area are complete (ie nothing to do with ICGW competition).
Wilmslow via Styal is a bit odd - I would have thought Stockport would be simpler.
If you have a path via Heald Green why would you not be able to reach the Airport?
There is also a "no poaching" rule on rolling stock.
I can see much gnashing of teeth in Cardiff Bay on the limits set to their powers.
We'll have to see how it turns out in funding terms for the franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised they aren't using a Welsh name e.g. "Rheilffordd Cymru".

 

[edwin_m]

Wilmslow via Styal is a bit odd - I would have thought Stockport would be simpler.
If you have a path via Heald Green why would you not be able to reach the Airport?

Maybe they are opening up the possiblity of a "circular" service Cardiff-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly-Newton-Chester-Shrewsbury-Cardiff?

 

[PR1Berske]

Point 12.5 says that, apart from Cardiff services, the words "Wales & Borders" must feature in the name

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe they are opening up the possiblity of a "circular" service Cardiff-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly-Newton-Chester-Shrewsbury-Cardiff?

They are limited to 1tph Crewe-Manchester and Manchester-Chester, so doing the circular you suggest would remove Manchester-North Wales Coast services.
I wouldn't take the restriction as approval of any of these paths, it will depend on what NR/ORR decide about capacity across Manchester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's a authorisation document appeared on the DfT website today which appears to have the purpose of allowing WG to procure the next franchise and also giving them permission to operate a limited number of services in England. It's been scanned in so can't be copied from: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2188/wales-and-borders-agency-agreement-2.pdf

One interesting observation is the North Wales/Chester to Manchester service can go to Manchester Airport or Stalybridge or Wilmslow! The franchise will not have permission to operate to Bristol Temple Meads prior to 2024. They will be allowed to run up to 1tph between Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn. They also have been told to minimise dwell times at Crewe.

The document also indicates W&B will be prevented from taking on any rolling stock which is needed by other franchises.

"One minute dwell at Oxford Rd and Piccadily" strongly suggests that end door Class 175's are out the equation for North Wales to Manchester runs. Queue speculation about new build or Class 185s plus upsetting poster Rhydagaled! Likewise minimizing dwell at Crewe in my experience only having 4 end doors on 2 car 175's working Cardiff to Manchester turns are a cause of this.

 

[edwin_m]

They are limited to 1tph Crewe-Manchester and Manchester-Chester, so doing the circular you suggest would remove Manchester-North Wales Coast services.
I wouldn't take the restriction as approval of any of these paths, it will depend on what NR/ORR decide about capacity across Manchester.

Perhaps then a non-circular that goes along the coast from Chester instead of back towards Cardiff? I've often wondered about this on seeing the Carmarthen/Milford leaving Piccadilly at about the same time the Llandudno arrives.

 

[northwichcat]

Wilmslow via Styal is a bit odd - I would have thought Stockport would be simpler.

I imagine it means if they want the option of extending existing Airport services to Wilmslow then they can do it, or alternatively if they want to no longer serve the Airport they can run through to Stalybridge instead.

I'm not sure Stockport would be simpler - Northern were really scratching their heads as to how they could add in an additional hourly Piccadilly-Stockport-Hazel Grove without reducing the number of services calling at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel.

 

[northwichcat]

Surprised they aren't using a Welsh name e.g. "Rheilffordd Cymru".

That is a DfT requirement (not applicable to Valley Lines .) I would be surprised if the WG didn't add a requirement for a Welsh name to be used alongside the English name.

 

[northwichcat]

"One minute dwell at Oxford Rd and Piccadily" strongly suggests that end door Class 175's are out the equation for North Wales to Manchester runs. Queue speculation about new build or Class 185s plus upsetting poster Rhydagaled! Likewise minimizing dwell at Crewe in my experience only having 4 end doors on 2 car 175's working Cardiff to Manchester turns are a cause of this.

Longer trains would also help keep dwell times down.

 

[JetStream]

If Abellio won the franchise, would there be any competition issues? Considering they will be running West Midlands, Northern, and Mersey Rail?

Given the fact that at present Arriva operate both routes between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly, I can't see that being a thing.

 

[northwichcat]

Given the fact that at present Arriva operate both routes between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly, I can't see that being a thing.

The CMA investigated that and decided there was no competition issue. (Also of relevance there is Arriva run the Northwich-Chester bus service.)

 

[daikilo]

The CMA investigated that and decided there was no competition issue. (Also of relevance there is Arriva run the Northwich-Chester bus service.)

Is it actually of relevance to the Dft when selecting a TOC?

 

[JetStream]

I'm guessing this means no more loco hauled stock?

Also, it's good to know there can't be a reduction in services across the new franchise.

 

[craigybagel]

"One minute dwell at Oxford Rd and Piccadily" strongly suggests that end door Class 175's are out the equation for North Wales to Manchester runs. Queue speculation about new build or Class 185s plus upsetting poster Rhydagaled! Likewise minimizing dwell at Crewe in my experience only having 4 end doors on 2 car 175's working Cardiff to Manchester turns are a cause of this.

The biggest delay to dwell times at Crewe is late running trains by a certain other TOC that always get priority! But I can't see that changing any time soon.....

Tying together the North and South Wales services at Piccadilly would not do much for the punctuality of either, since they'd lose the turnaround time they currently have. You'd also need to train the seperate crews on the other route - as crew changeovers at Platforms 13 and 14 are I believe frowned upon at the best of times (hence Northern and TPE doing theirs at Oxford Road normally) and wouldn't help with the 1 minute dwell time.

As for LHCS - I wouldn't rule it out just yet, if they can fit powered doors (which presumably they'll need to meet accessibility requirements anyway).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or Mk4 stock, of course.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Longer trains would also help keep dwell times down.

Indeed suggesting sending in a 2 or 3 car en door DMU from Chester to run through the through platforms is akin to farting in a spacesuite so its new/ additional stock somewhere to either run it or free current stock to double up. It also seems likely that the Manchester to Cardiff's will see 2 car end door DMu's get the red card also. All this has a financial implication and with the £ being spent on services into and out of Manchester in the spec theirs not going to be the wiggle room to indulge the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead trains without saying to WG "you want it you pay for it".

 

[6Gman]

The biggest delay to dwell times at Crewe is late running trains by a certain other TOC that always get priority! But I can't see that changing any time soon.....

W&B trains through Crewe need a decent dwell time as there is a major turnover of passengers. Southbound trains seem to run pretty well; northbound are often significantly delayed en route and thus get into complexity with xx34 via the Airport, xx50 via Stockport and the xx49 Up Birmingham Desiro. Never mind, all will be solved by Platforms 13 and 14 on the Manchester Independents.

 

[6Gman]

Perhaps then a non-circular that goes along the coast from Chester instead of back towards Cardiff? I've often wondered about this on seeing the Carmarthen/Milford leaving Piccadilly at about the same time the Llandudno arrives.

I'm sure Manchester - Chester commuters would be delighted to learn their train home is 40 minutes late, cow on line at Whitland.

 

[craigybagel]

W&B trains through Crewe need a decent dwell time as there is a major turnover of passengers. Southbound trains seem to run pretty well; northbound are often significantly delayed en route and thus get into complexity with xx34 via the Airport, xx50 via Stockport and the xx49 Up Birmingham Desiro. Never mind, all will be solved by Platforms 13 and 14 on the Manchester Independents.

Southbound they tend to arrive on-time and leave late, thanks to the aforementioned other TOC's services (specifically the 9Sxx booked into Platform 11 shortly before the AW is due to depart from 6). Northbound I would hardly describe the delays as often or significant, especially in the last year or two with the heavy reduction in freight traffic on the marches. In both directions, the booked dwell time (which includes a crew change at least half the time) is ample so long as everything works the way it's meant to.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Reduced W&B dwell times in Manchester and Crewe is not a rule, it's just "encouraged".
But if they can lease the spare 22x185s before someone else snaffles them, then it would do something for dwell times.
Whether W&B wants a train depot in Manchester rather then Chester is another thing, of course.

 

[craigybagel]

The Manchester bit is made to sound like a requirement.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Manchester bit is made to sound like a requirement.

Perhaps it's an encouragement to go to Victoria/Stalybridge which are not so restricted!
I can understand why they would want dwell times no worse than the new Northern/TPE services (although many of these will have end doors, and TPE will have some LHCS).
The choices also don't seem to allow Piccadilly terminators as now.

 

[gareth950]

There is also a "no poaching" rule on rolling stock.

Meaning what? I thought the way the franchising system works, TOCs are entitled to bid for whatever rolling stock is available at the time the franchise is being let. E.g. Northern 'poaching' 150s DMUs from GWR and Scotrail 'poaching' HSTs from GWR. Yes, I know technically they weren't poached as they were due to be freed up by electrification - but my point is these trains were up for grabs at the time of the Northern and Scotrail franchises being let and so were taken. If DMUs or EMUs are coming off lease and are up for grabs, why can't the Welsh franchise 'poach' these units before the next franchise in the franchising schedule is due to be awarded? Isn't this discrimination against Wales? Unless I've misunderstood it seems like it is.

Point 12.5 says that, apart from Cardiff services, the words "Wales & Borders" must feature in the name

'Transport for Wales' or 'Metro' will be the branding on Cardiff local & Valleys services. It's already started to be applied to some suburban Cardiff stations.
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Also, words to the effect of "The TFO will transfer franchising functions only insofar as they relate to the Welsh component of a Welsh service. The SoS shall remain the franchising authority over English services."

So what about cross-border services then? E.g. South Wales - Manchester on the Marches? Welsh Govt is responsible for specifying the service as far as Abergavenny and the DfT is responsible for specifying the service on the same train to Manchester?
I thought all this nonsense of splitting the responsibility of English & Welsh cross border services had been sorted?

This government does like messing around with borders and putting up artificial barriers between countries doesn't it.

 

[Dai Corner]

Meaning what? I thought the way the franchising system works, TOCs are entitled to bid for whatever rolling stock is available at the time the franchise is being let. E.g. Northern 'poaching' 150s DMUs from GWR and Scotrail 'poaching' HSTs from GWR. Yes, I know technically they weren't poached as they were due to be freed up by electrification - but my point is these trains were up for grabs at the time of the Northern and Scotrail franchises being let and so were taken. If DMUs or EMUs are coming off lease and are up for grabs, why can't the Welsh franchise 'poach' these units before the next franchise in the franchising schedule is due to be awarded? Isn't this discrimination against Wales? Unless I've misunderstood it seems like it is.



'Transport for Wales' or 'Metro' will be the branding on Cardiff local & Valleys services. It's already started to be applied to some suburban Cardiff stations.
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Also, words to the effect of "The TFO will transfer franchising functions only insofar as they relate to the Welsh component of a Welsh service. The SoS shall remain the franchising authority over English services."

So what about cross-border services then? E.g. South Wales - Manchester on the Marches? Welsh Govt is responsible for specifying the service as far as Abergavenny and the DfT is responsible for specifying the service on the same train to Manchester?
I thought all this nonsense of splitting the responsibility of English & Welsh cross border services had been sorted?

This government does like messing around with borders and putting up artificial barriers between countries doesn't it.

I believe it was the Welsh people who voted for devolution and the establishment of a Welsh Government and that Government which sought powers to run the railways in Wales (and bits of England). I assume that's the Government you refer to?

I'm still of the opinion that cross-border services should be the responsibility of the UK (NB Not English) Government.