Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Gareth Marston]

Let's not turn this thread into a Welsh language Vs English language debate. Although it's inevitable that the signage on the outside and inside of the trains will be bilingual. And expect any automated announcements on any new trains to be bilingual as well. Look at the fuss that was kicked up recently when GWR didn't introduce bilingual announcements on the 800s on the Welsh side of the severn tunnel.

It will also soon be compulsory for anyone who works in the Welsh Govt or Welsh Assembly to be able to speak Welsh, which I should imagine will exclude a lot of people from the job.

Including the vast bulk of current staff........

 

[Envoy]

So, they (WAG) would discriminate against 80% of the population of Wales and just select from the Welsh speaking minority!

 

[berneyarms]

As I pointed out above it works perfectly well here in Ireland where trains are branded in both languages and no one gets particularly upset about it, with similar levels of native Irish speakers to those speaking Welsh in Wales.

On occasion non-Enterprise stock works to Belfast and that will have bi-lingual branding and it doesn’t cause mass confusion.

I genuinely think this is getting upset for very little reason.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Most of the Anglia 170s go off-lease in 2019 and the XC 170s go off-lease in 2019. The Anglia 170s are being released because they are acquiring new trains, so they could go to W&B subject to a lease being agreed with the ROSCO but even then the cascade might be delayed if Anglia don't get their new FLIRTs in service on time (just like a batch of GWR 150s didn't transfer to Northern in September.) The XC 170s are off-lease simply because that's when the current franchise ends, W&B would be blocked from leasing those as it would leave the next XC franchise short of trains.

don't forget all the LM ones coming off lease too

 

[CardiffKid]

ATW currently have bilingual liveries on the outside of their trains, there is utterly no reason why that would/should change in 12 months time.

As for services that operate 100% within Wales there is no sane political apatite for having text/information mono lingualy in just Welsh.

Now, can we get back to talking about trains not the rights and wrongs of the Welsh language?​

 

[northwichcat]

don't forget all the LM ones coming off lease too

I was just giving an example of two sets of 170s off-lease in 2019 and explaining why W&B bidders will have access to one set but not the other.

The LM ones won't be off-lease prior to the PRM deadline which is probably something the franchise bidders will have to consider. They also seem to fit rather well with the requirement the Northern franchise has for additional '170s or trains equivalent in quality and performance to 170s' so I wouldn't bet on them being available to W&B bidders.

 

[Envoy]

Of all the trains that are currently in use, surely the 170’s would be the best stock for the scenic lines such as the Heart of Wales and the Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog as they have large windows. (I have not stated the Cambrian routes due to the fact that they need to split and therefore require the through corridor. That is assuming the present arrangement continues). OK, I know that someone will come back and say why use 100mph stock for slow lines but the 2 car units are not really suitable for busy XC services.

 

[northwichcat]

Of all the trains that are currently in use, surely the 170’s would be the best stock for the scenic lines such as the Heart of Wales and the Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog as they have large windows. (I have not stated the Cambrian routes due to the fact that they need to split and therefore require the through corridor. That is assuming the present arrangement continues). OK, I know that someone will come back and say why use 100mph stock for slow lines but the 2 car units are not really suitable for busy XC services.

If the 153s get withdrawn, there won't be much 75mph stock left for W&B bidders considering how many of the 150s and 156s are leased by Northern until 2025.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Of all the trains that are currently in use, surely the 170’s would be the best stock for the scenic lines such as the Heart of Wales and the Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog as they have large windows. (I have not stated the Cambrian routes due to the fact that they need to split and therefore require the through corridor. That is assuming the present arrangement continues). OK, I know that someone will come back and say why use 100mph stock for slow lines but the 2 car units are not really suitable for busy XC services.

We had them new (Class 170's) on the Cambrian Mainline in 2000 ( 2 diagrams a day), they never went up the coast to my knowledge. You don't "have" to have portion working for Aberystwyth/Coast line its just that its been the most operationally convenient way of getting 4 car formations between Shrewsbury and Birmingham given that they depot at Machynlleth and there were only 8 trains a day at the time the extensions to International happened. Its not set in stone despite what stakeholders on the coast line think. The 1137 from Pwllheli (1408 ex Machynlleth lead 2 cars) barely had a dozen people in it when it came through Newtown this afternoon. Through traffic off the coast in winter is negligible. You could easily cut the number of through trains down on the traffic levels.

I used to think that no one would retrofit etcs in anything second hand and we'd be stuck with the 158's however given how the £ pans out with the new Peter Wilknison quality franchises im not so sure any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they put up a proper building and staffed it at Dyfi Junction, or rebuilt Mach to an island platform, I wouldn't have any particular objection to the Coast being connections only, allowing something like a 4-car 170 to run to Aber.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If they put up a proper building and staffed it at Dyfi Junction, or rebuilt Mach to an island platform, I wouldn't have any particular objection to the Coast being connections only, allowing something like a 4-car 170 to run to Aber.

Physically rebuilding Machynlleth would be a challenging job (and forget making Dovey Junction a friendly interchange - ever been there in the Winter ? - I have - colder than Blackfriars)

However I present an operating solution - run the main line Aber to Brum - and with a few exceptions , make the Coast a reverse move at Machynlleth - so you have a Pwllheli to Aberystwyth 2 hourly , making Machynleth towards Aber hourly.....

 

[Llanigraham]

Oh, what a surprise, the usual suspects have jumped into the usual arguements on here about how many people speak Welsh.
Perhaps that should have actually read the words that I highlighted, so this time I have highlighted them in RED, and my comment.

'Wales & Borders' is understandable by everybody who speaks English - the international language of the World. Most people - including the 80% of the people of Wales who do not speak Welsh, would not have a clue as to the meaning of “Rheilffordd Cymru”. It should also be noted that considerable parts of this franchise cover English territory including routes to the great cities of Birmingham & Manchester.

I think many of my solely English speaking compatriots would understand those last 2 words!

 

[Llanigraham]

Of all the trains that are currently in use, surely the 170’s would be the best stock for the scenic lines such as the Heart of Wales and the Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog as they have large windows. (I have not stated the Cambrian routes due to the fact that they need to split and therefore require the through corridor. That is assuming the present arrangement continues). OK, I know that someone will come back and say why use 100mph stock for slow lines but the 2 car units are not really suitable for busy XC services.

Also the fact that on the Cambrian they would need to be retro-fitted with ERTMS equipmemt.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Notwithstanding the West Midlands franchise upping its off peak frequency from Shrewsbury to BHM to 2 tph. Wales and Borders are still running the 1 tph Regional Express path along this route and the current 4 car formations struggle at times coming out of New St.

Id be happy to see this as Chester/Cambrian portions joining up at Shrewsbury using mainly 3 car 158's with some 2 car 158's running some local turns Pwllheli/Machynlleth/Aberystwyth or running as part of off peak trains east of Shrewsbury. A couple of through trains a day can run up to Pwllheli with a connection for Aber. The only thing hurt would be some stakeholder egos in Ceredigion and Gwynedd.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Physically rebuilding Machynlleth would be a challenging job (and forget making Dovey Junction a friendly interchange - ever been there in the Winter ? - I have - colder than Blackfriars)

However I present an operating solution - run the main line Aber to Brum - and with a few exceptions , make the Coast a reverse move at Machynlleth - so you have a Pwllheli to Aberystwyth 2 hourly , making Machynleth towards Aber hourly.....

Not even had a glass of wine yet - and I realise I have just taken 50% capacity of Machynlleth - Salop - Brum ! - this cunning plan would only work with sufficient capacity on the main line.

 

[edwin_m]

I've just checked and apparently the Welsh government figures are obtained by asking for a 'Yes/No' answer to 'Do you speak Welsh?' The census figures are obtained by someone declaring they can speak Welsh when they are asked what language they usually speak. So perhaps 19% speaking Welsh as their main language and a further 8% speaking some Welsh in addition to English is a fair conclusion?

It probably depends which language they ask the question in...

 

[craigybagel]

Why bother going through the expense of fitting ERTMS to more trains when you already have 158s spending a large part of their day on routes other then the Cambrian? Separate the North Wales services from the Cambrian, then replace those 158s (and/or replace the small amount of 158 diagrams in South Wales) and you've an ample fleet to cope with growth on the Cambrian lines for decades to come.
And not that I'm saying that this will happen, but if those extra units you get to replace the non Cambrian 158s are 170s, they'll still be able to run in multiple with them so you can still provide through services from the Chester to Shrewsbury line and beyond towards the West Midlands, with 158/170 combinations splitting at Shrewsbury....

 

[Class 170101]

what about cross-border services then? E.g. South Wales - Manchester on the Marches? Welsh Govt is responsible for specifying the service as far as Abergavenny and the DfT is responsible for specifying the service on the same train to Manchester?
I thought all this nonsense of splitting the responsibility of English & Welsh cross border services had been sorted?

This government does like messing around with borders and putting up artificial barriers between countries doesn't it.

How does one manage the Cardiff to Holyhead service? Welsh from Holyhead to Chester? English to Abergavanney, Welsh from there to Cardiff. How stupid can you get?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose the new footbridge at Mach with lifts has made non-cross-platform interchange easier (not to mention giving it the feel of a London commuter station rather than a country branch line), but there's something about the branch train simmering away on the other side of the same platform that it just doesn't replicate.

I suppose what you could do is to move the Pwllheli train into the sidings while an Aber train calls, then move it back out, same platform that way.

Mind you, with more 158s what you could do instead is to run through with 6 cars, 4 to Aber and 2 to the Coast, or even reform them to 3 and 3.

 

[JetStream]

ATW currently have bilingual liveries on the outside of their trains, there is utterly no reason why that would/should change in 12 months time.

As for services that operate 100% within Wales there is no sane political apatite for having text/information mono lingualy in just Welsh.

Now, can we get back to talking about trains not the rights and wrongs of the Welsh language?​

Yes! Jesus, have bilingual branding. It's not an issue, it's not difficult, so can people please stop trying to wind others up?!

 

[edwin_m]

Yes! Jesus, have bilingual branding. It's not an issue, it's not difficult, so can people please stop trying to wind others up?!

Agreed. What are much more problematic are the bi-lingual automated station announcements which make it very difficult to get essential information across quickly and intelligibly at large stations.

 

[bigbadhenry]

Yes! Jesus, have bilingual branding. It's not an issue, it's not difficult, so can people please stop trying to wind others up?!

Totally agree.

 

[Parallel]

Agreed. What are much more problematic are the bi-lingual automated station announcements which make it very difficult to get essential information across quickly and intelligibly at large stations.

I don’t think the announcements are that bad. The one thing they could do is switch to the English announcements first, which is what currently happens at Newport. However, the larger stations usually supplement with manual announcements.

 

[gareth950]

The Valley lines into Cardiff went into meltdown this morning due to a points failiure at Trehafod. Many peak time trains into Cardiff were cancelled, missing stops and / or short formed. Cue moaning on twitter and the ATW 'Fails' FB page about how Arriva have given up on the franchise already, and it'll be a land of milk and honey this time next year...........

 

[Gareth Marston]

There was a DfT Stakeholder meeting in Shrewsbury last week on how Daft are shackling WG about pissing on the Borders,not much new in presentation but for completeness here it is.

 

[gareth950]

"Service Levels Cross Border:
TfW is not specifying any service enhancements beyond the current operated base."

So no service enhancements on the Marches then?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The full section is

TfW is not specifying any service enhancements beyond the current operated base.
WG has identified routes where bidders are encouraged to develop capacity/frequency enhancements.
Red lines & geographic scope
Assumptions for bidders on paths the DfT franchise services should be allowed within Wales.

Cross Border

North Wales/Chester to Manchester/Manchester Airport - there is one path an hour via Warrington plus a peak extra with the route shared with Northern Connect Chester to Leeds trains so as expected....
Halton Curve. 1 tph Liverpool Lime St to Chester is being introduced in Dec 18.
Chester/Wrexham/Cambrian -Shrewsbury to BHM INTL, again there's a path for 1 tph and line is shared with West Midlands franchise.
Cardiff to Crewe to Manchester again there's only one path across Crewe station.

There never were going to be any extra trains into Manchester/Birmingham anyway.

I would defer to Schedule 4 of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2188/wales-and-borders-agency-agreement-2.pdf

Which we cant copy unfortunately however its clear that WG can only encourage enhancements from the bidders within those limits and cant specify them. So from Newport to Shrewsbury up 3 tph can be encouraged by WG however they cant specify where they go to/from. So if none of them want to play hourly Cardiff to Holyhead the WG cant compel them!

 

[gareth950]

The full section is

Please explain as

Service levels cross-border:
"TfW is not specifying any service enhancements beyond the current operated base."

and

"WG has identified routes where bidders are encouraged to develop capacity/frequency enhancements."

to me contradict each other.

 

[northwichcat]

Please explain as

Service levels cross-border:
"TfW is not specifying any service enhancements beyond the current operated base."

and

"WG has identified routes where bidders are encouraged to develop capacity/frequency enhancements."

to me contradict each other.

I think it means TfW are not forcing bidders to make certain enhancements but will provide a list of optional enhancements which they want bidders to consider.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think it means TfW are not forcing bidders to make certain enhancements but will provide a list of optional enhancements which they want bidders to consider.

Indeed its "please can you run a train every hour from Cardiff to Holyhead" not "the Welsh Government commands you to run a train every hour from Cardiff to Holyhead"