Wales: Current Covid rules illogical

[Bantamzen]

Sorry, what? A democratically elected government subject to electoral scrutiny passes a law requiring businesses to do a certain thing, and then enforces said law, is compared to the Stasi? That is an insult to those whose lives were destroyed by the Stasi.

It's not good law, and it's clearly not very effective, but this misrepresentation of historical fact is far worse than the action of the Welsh authorities to enforce the law they've implemented.

Still, I suppose we should be thankful for the small mercies of a more creative comparison that Gestapo/Holocaust...

For a start the Stasi were founded in 1950 under the then Communist rule of the GDR. But hey let's not let facts get in the way of a bit of virtue signalling.....

But more importantly is how state control systems like the Stasi come about. They don't just pop in to existence after a revolution, war or change of power. It takes time for governments to start to implement the harsher & stricter controls that were seen under the GDR's time. What has gone wrong time and again in history is that people either ignore or tolerate such as actively discriminating against one group of people for some perceived greater good to the nation. So long as it doesn't affect them, some people will happily watch as other's rights are slowly eroded. Happily until the state turns their eyes to them of course.

They may not have gone all the way down the Austrian road yet, but vaccine passports, threats of further lockdowns, screaming at people to mask up are the first tentative steps in that direction. It may not even be the intention of the leadership to do so, but at this point I am reminded of the word of Professor Ferguson last year....

In January, members of Sage, the government’s scientific advisory group, had watched as China enacted this innovative intervention in pandemic control that was also a medieval intervention.

“They claimed to have flattened the curve. I was sceptical at first. I thought it was a massive cover-up by the Chinese. But as the data accrued it became clear it was an effective policy.”

Then, as infections seeded across the world, springing up like angry boils on the map, Sage debated whether, nevertheless, it would be effective here. “It’s a communist one party state, we said. We couldn’t get away with it in Europe, we thought.” In February one of those boils raged just below the Alps. “And then Italy did it. And we realised we could.”

"We couldn't get away with it in Europe we thought. And then Italy did it. And we realised we could."

How long before it is a country leader uttering those words and acting on them? Maybe it has already started?

 

[VauxhallandI]

How do we go from having to prove you're vaccinated against a virus during a pandemic to kids being recruited by the state to spy on thier parents TV viewing habits?

Your hysterics over this are an insult to every life ruined or lost by dictatorial regimes. If anything it's England we need to worry about as the Tories have used to pandemic to cover up many questionable bills, many of which wouldn't look out of place in the Eastern bloc.

Me thinks you are the one that is hysterical with your over the top reaction to a my “boiling frog” comment.

I suggest you take a breather next time before pushing your one trick pony Holocaust come back.

I think everyone here knows it’s not the same and to suggest so just stinks of a diversionary tactic from the reality that we are staring at.

Things start somewhere and to suggest what has happened over the last two years is in no way a warning sign against what we have experienced in the previous entire part of our lives is dangerous ignorance.

 

[Berliner]

Me thinks you are the one that is hysterical with your over the top reaction to a my “boiling frog” comment.

I suggest you take a breather next time before pushing your one trick pony Holocaust come back.

I think everyone here knows it’s not the same and to suggest so just stinks of a diversionary tactic from the reality that we are staring at.

Things start somewhere and to suggest what has happened over the last two years is in no way a warning sign against what we have experienced in the previous entire part of our lives is dangerous ignorance.

"One trick pony holocaust come back"?

What on earth does that even mean?

 

[John Luxton]

Still, I suppose we should be thankful for the small mercies of a more creative comparison that Gestapo/Holocaust...

Well getting people to wear sunflower lanyards to avoid wearing masks was on the route to the yellow star.

I appreciate that some of the stasi / Gestapo / KGB comparisons have been used a lot recently but the fact is they have been used to express displeasure at the state over reaching itself.

My political stand point is that of a small state conservative.

Small government which had minimum interference in our lives, low taxes, low taxes and general freedom for people to live their lives free of state interference.

What has happened is that due to the Government UK and devolved having lost its bottle many people have been convinced that firm controls are required.

This has happened because there was no open debate on C19 measures in the media both broadcast, social and printed. There was plenty of debate about Brexit.

We have seen how mass protests have been deliberately ignored or reported on inaccurate ly. Not until GBN came along, apart from the Daily Telegraph which appeared somewhat lockdown / restriction sceptic has the state narrative been challenged.

Social media has banned / silenced people who have different views. Why?

One must ask ourselves why people who have never thought of protesting in their lives before have taken to the streets across the world.

There are those of us out there who know enough about European history to see parallels with the past for alarm bells to start ringing.

As a wake up call to the sheep I see no problems in drawing parallels to totalitarian regimes of the past.

 

[35B]

Well getting people to wear sunflower lanyards to avoid wearing masks was on the route to the yellow star.

I appreciate that some of the stasi / Gestapo / KGB comparisons have been used a lot recently but the fact is they have been used to express displeasure at the state over reaching itself.

My political stand point is that of a small state conservative.

Small government which had minimum interference in our lives, low taxes, low taxes and general freedom for people to live their lives free of state interference.

What has happened is that due to the Government UK and devolved having lost its bottle many people have been convinced that firm controls are required.

This has happened because there was no open debate on C19 measures in the media both broadcast, social and printed. There was plenty of debate about Brexit.

We have seen how mass protests have been deliberately ignored or reported on inaccurate ly. Not until GBN came along, apart from the Daily Telegraph which appeared somewhat lockdown / restriction sceptic has the state narrative been challenged.

Social media has banned / silenced people who have different views. Why?

One must ask ourselves why people who have never thought of protesting in their lives before have taken to the streets across the world.

There are those of us out there who know enough about European history to see parallels with the past for alarm bells to start ringing.

As a wake up call to the sheep I see no problems in drawing parallels to totalitarian regimes of the past.

I am also a small state conservative - though I suspect we might differ on some details of what "small state conservative" means.

For a start the Stasi were founded in 1950 under the then Communist rule of the GDR. But hey let's not let facts get in the way of a bit of virtue signalling.....

But more importantly is how state control systems like the Stasi come about. They don't just pop in to existence after a revolution, war or change of power. It takes time for governments to start to implement the harsher & stricter controls that were seen under the GDR's time. What has gone wrong time and again in history is that people either ignore or tolerate such as actively discriminating against one group of people for some perceived greater good to the nation. So long as it doesn't affect them, some people will happily watch as other's rights are slowly eroded. Happily until the state turns their eyes to them of course.

They may not have gone all the way down the Austrian road yet, but vaccine passports, threats of further lockdowns, screaming at people to mask up are the first tentative steps in that direction. It may not even be the intention of the leadership to do so, but at this point I am reminded of the word of Professor Ferguson last year....


"We couldn't get away with it in Europe we thought. And then Italy did it. And we realised we could."

How long before it is a country leader uttering those words and acting on them? Maybe it has already started?

Thank you for picking up my typo - I meant to write "than the Gestapo", not "that the Gestapo"...

However, having studied 20th century German history to postgraduate level, I do not see the chain of events that you describe as do you and others, nor do I see the slippery slope in the way that you and others do.

The very nature of the regimes you compare Covid restrictions to was not just authoritarian, but totalitarian. Systems like the Stasi were not fully effective immediately, but they were an intrinsic part of the systems they supported. Secret police were at the heart of the totalitarian regimes; the likes of Himmler, Dzerzhinsky, Mielke, or Kang Sheng were part of their revolutions, not a later graft onto them. The restrictions being imposed in Europe are not the start of some kind of descent into that kind of hell, but the variably effective and thought through attempts of governments to deal with current circumstances. And, whether those who accept current policies are sheep or not, I find it depressing and insulting in the extreme that those who wish to present a counter-narrative do so by dismissing them with the sort of contempt that I would expect from a genuine authoritarian.

Finally, today's Times has an excellent article by Hugo Rifkind entitled "Calling antivaxers the ‘new Jews’ is a sick joke" (sharing link provided). I'll respect his copyright and not copy the full article, but the final paragraph sums up the immoral nonsense that these hysterical comparisons form:

As it happens, I’m opposed to mandatory vaccines, at least outside a healthcare context, and Austria’s plan to introduce them strikes me as extraordinary, unworkable and illiberal. And yet — and this may be the maddest sentence I’ve ever had to write — I do feel that the Holocaust was worse. “Ah,” say the Oliverites, “but this is how it starts!” To which the only credible response is, “No, it isn’t”. It starts with two millennia of hatred, blood libel and pogroms. Which isn’t all that similar to people calling you selfish for not wearing a mask on the Tube.