Is a trade off for getting a cheaper ticket. On an advance you need to do exactly what the ticket says.
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Was fined this morning because I have bought a ticket whilst the train was in station
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Royston Vasey
Established Member
She has made a complete hash of the reasoning and her English is horrific, but unfortunately, ultimately the Advance wasn't valid on that train. But it's worth unpicking it.
If you had an Advance for 8:14 and THAT was cancelled you may well have been fine to get the 07:30 you boarded. She seems to have conflated/mistyped/misunderstood your reasoning that "I heard the 07:30 train was cancelled but then found it wasn't at the last minute" and interpreted as "I have a ticket for 08:14 but heard it was cancelled so jumped on this one".
It doesn't make sense that she was the conductor of the 07:30 train yet says "I checked it wasn't cancelled" about her own train.
I think she meant to type that she checked the 08:14 was cancelled and it wasn't.
As for buying a ticket at T-1 minute. Completely spurious.
If you had an Advance for 8:14 and THAT was cancelled you may well have been fine to get the 07:30 you boarded. She seems to have conflated/mistyped/misunderstood your reasoning that "I heard the 07:30 train was cancelled but then found it wasn't at the last minute" and interpreted as "I have a ticket for 08:14 but heard it was cancelled so jumped on this one".
It doesn't make sense that she was the conductor of the 07:30 train yet says "I checked it wasn't cancelled" about her own train.
I think she meant to type that she checked the 08:14 was cancelled and it wasn't.
As for buying a ticket at T-1 minute. Completely spurious.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Was at a terminus. Euston in fact, and I think probably elsewhere too
Some chance of being on it is better than no chance of being on it.
I did not know that...
I have bought tickets on trains on numerous occasions - albeit usually CDR or Plain Singles.
I'm also one for buying tickets to Picc and getting off at Deansgate, Oxford Road or even Salford Central or Victoria.
Its this type of ticketing pernickety stuff that I really hate about train travelling and to be frank i hate it.
What would happen if i bought advance singles (example times)
0815 Bolton to Manchester Piccadilly arriving (0850)
Then another advance single for the
0915 Manchester Piccadilly - Hathersage
But enroute my 0815 departure was delayed by an incident an arrived late after the Hathersage train had departed?
Would my second single be wasted? Would i be able to get it changed? Would it be accepted?
I really do feel that the ticketing system need a revolution and simplification its horrifically complex.
To basically singles 7 day advance and 28 day advances.
georgeiulian17
Member
I think no one seems to believe that the woman was so determined to give me a fine for any reason so she clinged on the 7.29 thing and she didn’t see that the ticket was wrong altogether.
She scanned it, wanted to leave for a second. Then, Ha! 7.29! You’re getting a fine. See?! 7.29. It’s the 7.30 train so bla bla bla.
And the fact that most of you are criticising her English (as as a non native I didn’t noticed that) are making me to believe that she was that daft.
As someone who used to issue PFNs, the absolute state of what's been written on the PFN is giving me a headache.
Let's be clear, your ticket wasn't valid. So, you are technically bang to rights.
However, it was incorrectly explained to you as to why you were getting a PFN, and the PFN itself has the incorrect reasoning. It's probably worth sticking an appeal in on these grounds, as my concern isn't specifically with your case (as you haven't technically lost out, even though the experience was no doubt frustrating), but if someone is genuinely PFNed for happening to be sat on a train, before departure time, having bought an otherwise completely valid ticket.
Let's be clear, your ticket wasn't valid. So, you are technically bang to rights.
However, it was incorrectly explained to you as to why you were getting a PFN, and the PFN itself has the incorrect reasoning. It's probably worth sticking an appeal in on these grounds, as my concern isn't specifically with your case (as you haven't technically lost out, even though the experience was no doubt frustrating), but if someone is genuinely PFNed for happening to be sat on a train, before departure time, having bought an otherwise completely valid ticket.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
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- 15,244
Yes, some guards sell tickets but sometimes you will encounter revenue protection staff who will issue penalty fares or report you for potential prosecution. If there are facilities to buy tickets at the station you should use them. It will never be cheaper to buy on the train as the same tickets will be sold by the guard as are sold at a station.
Railway Byelaw 18 states:
So as the Byelaw is written it is an offence to board a train without a ticket, even if you had time to buy one before the train departed.
Terrible advice. If there are adequate ticket issuing facilities at the station you board the train, you must use them (unless you are given permission to board the train). Failing to give details is also an offence and if you refused and happened to be met by the BTP at the next station it's you who would be in the wrong.
mangyiscute
Established Member
We had a discussion before about what if you're boarding a train without the intention of travelling, for example a train is sitting at its terminus for the next 20 mins, so you board to use the toilet. So legally, if you board with a different intention, it would be fine.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Technically yes though it'd be a real jobsworth that did it that way. However the OP could have stood by but just outside the doors and it be fine. Thus buying at 0729 or even 0730 is legal. Just not 0731.
If the ticket office is open, you can be charged a Penalty Fare (if PFs apply) or a full fare (if they do not); you could even be reported for prosecution even if you had no intent to avoid payment of the fare.
If the ticket office is closed or non-existent, then it comes down to whether there is a working machine or not; if there is a working machine which accepts your chosen payment method, then unless you had some disability which meant you couldn't use the machine, again the above applies and you could be in trouble. However if there is a notice stating you can buy on board, then that takes precedent, even if there is a machine.
If you require advice and/or wish to debate this further, please create a new thread as this one is dedicated to the issue the original poster has.
The time is irrelevant, it is the place that matters. I do agree that it would be somewhat harsh to issue a penalty fare or report where someone gets on without a ticket but has a ticket before the train departs, but it would be valid.
This is true but not at all relevant to the post at hand. The OP very clearly intended to travel, and therefore needed a ticket before boarding and not after.
georgeiulian17
Member
I did not bought the ticket after boarding the train. I waited on the platform until transaction was successful then boarded the train as I did not want to travel without a ticket.
KirkstallOne
Member
Not sure anyone answered this, but the appeal should stop the clock on the time you have to pay before it goes up to £107 so it can’t make things worse (unless you incriminate yourself for something else in your appeal of course).
You have 21 days to pay or appeal, and they have 21 days to decide whether to allow the appeal. If they make a decision to reject the appeal the original 21 day countdown before it goes up will resume from wherever it was when you appealed.
georgeiulian17
Member
I am 100% sure I was not on the train without a ticket. Yes, I was on the platform, the beeping strated, purchase succesful, jumped on the train, doors closed.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
This is all academic anyway as you should appeal because the reasons on the notice are not in line with the regulations, and are not why the notice was issued.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
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But you were 100% on board the train without a valid ticket. On this occasion, when you completed the purchase is of no importance as the ticket was never going to be valid on that train.
I'm not sure if it has been explained to the OP, but with a Penalty Fare Notice, there are three chances to appeal. The appeals should stick to arguing against the accusation on the notice. The main thing I would go for is the absurdity of accusing the OP of "boarding the train with a ticket bought on the train". The OP is adamant that the ticket was bought before boarding.
The third appeal is heard by an independent panel, so it's often worth going on to that stage even if the previous two seem to have ignored the arguments against the PFN being valid.
The OP would need to carefully watch the time elapsed to be able to avoid the escalation to £100+ if the third appeal fails.
Definitely put the draft appeal wording up here to allow us to further advise.
The third appeal is heard by an independent panel, so it's often worth going on to that stage even if the previous two seem to have ignored the arguments against the PFN being valid.
The OP would need to carefully watch the time elapsed to be able to avoid the escalation to £100+ if the third appeal fails.
Definitely put the draft appeal wording up here to allow us to further advise.
Just a quick query on the bit about permission:
If I've arrived at the very last minute I have a couple of times approached the guard on the platform and asked them to come to sell me a ticket on the train after departure, to which they've agreed. Does this constitute permission to board should a revenue protection officer get to me before the guard?
PacerTrain142
On Moderation
There was a ticket machine but as the bus was late we were late arriving at the station and the train came in pretty much when we stepped on the platform. If we had bought tickets from the machine we would have missed the train and it would have been an hour until the next one so obviously we weren’t going to do that. The guard actually said she preferred it when people buy in the train because if everyone just buys online she could be out of a job. And she did say it was cheaper to pay in cash becuase of the cost of processing the transaction. I’ve been to shops where it’s been cheaper to pay in cash for this reason.
There was a ticket machine but because the bus was late we were late arriving at the station so didn’t have time to buy tickets, we would have missed the train if we did and it was an hour to the next one so we had to buy on the train.
Whenever I’ve seen a fare dodger on the train they’ve just been thrown off at the next station. Of course, if they refused to get off, the guard would have to hold the train at the next station and call the police. This is on the Colne - Preston line where most stations do not have any police though.
There was no ticket office but there was a ticket machine, but unfortunately due to the bus being late we had no time to buy tickets. :/
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I advise you to be careful doing that because this is an offence, and you may end up with a Penalty Fare, or worse, prosecuted.
georgeiulian17
Member
This is why I have doubts that my appeal would not be successful.
If the appeal would only take into consideration what was written on the PFN, yes, as most of you said I would have a chance. However, not for a second I was told that I should not have been on that train as my ticket purchased at 7.29 was for 8.30 train, not for the 7.30 train. I found that out from you guys.
As a foreigner I don’t even know how to start…but I’ll give it a go on Monday. (Monday because I have just turned 30 yesterday and family is here for the weekend)
Belated happy birthday, and try to enjoy the weekend with your family.
Yes.
John Palmer
Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2015
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- 245
It may be helpful to see an image showing the whole of the orange-bordered document uploaded in post #1 (with any personal details that identify the OP suitably obscured). It seems to be part of a penalty fare notice but the fact that the 'Issue reason' given is stated to be “Other (PFN)” raises a doubt as to what it is supposed to be.
For the purposes of the statutory penalty fare scheme, the question of whether you bought your ticket after boarding the train on which you intended to travel is completely irrelevant. The only relevant question is whether, when required to do so, you produced a valid travel ticket. The advance ticket you purchased was not valid for the train you were on when approached by the operator's 'collector', and for that reason she had a legitimate basis on which to charge a penalty fare under Regulation 5(1) of the Railway (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, which can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/contents.
However, that's not an end to the matter, because Regulation 5(2) then goes on to require the train operator's collector who is charging the penalty fare to provide the person charged with various items of written information, including “an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare” (Regulation 5(2)(b)). If the collector failed to provide that explanation then “The penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these regulations.” (Regulation 16(3)(a), thereby raising a valid ground on which an appeal against the penalty fare can be mounted. Regulation 16(7) goes on to say that “If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in paragraph (3) applies, it must, subject to paragraph (10), allow the appeal.” This means that, unless the operator can convince the appeal panel that its collector did provide you with the required written explanation of why she was charging you a penalty fare, that panel must uphold your appeal, even though a valid basis for charging the penalty fare existed.
In your case the explanation given appears to be an 'Issue Reason' of “Other (PFN)”, which is then amplified under 'Grounds Info' as “Customer boarded train at horwhich parkway with a ticket he bought on board” There then follows an irrelevant statement about whether or not the 0730 train had been cancelled. The collector's statement that you “boarded train … with a ticket [you] bought on board” is so self-contradictory that I do not see how, as written, it can be regarded as any form of explanation of why the penalty fare was being charged. Looking beyond this 'explanation' and trying to attribute to it some intelligible meaning, it seems that the collector may have been trying to suggest that you purchased a ticket after boarding the train, and this entitled her to charge the penalty fare. But, as I've said, the time and place where you bought the ticket are irrelevant in the penalty fare context, and the only relevant consideration is whether you produced a valid ticket for your journey. As it turns out, you didn't, but inexplicably the collector has failed to provide that as the explanation for the penalty fare charged, even though it would have been an unassailable explanation in the context of an appeal.
I recommend you to appeal against the penalty fare on the Regulation 16(3)(a) ground that it “was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these regulations” by reason of the collector's failure to provide you with a valid or intelligible explanation of why the penalty fare was being charged, contrary to Regulation 5(2)(b). You would need to submit such an appeal in writing within 21 days from 16th August in accordance with the first stage appeal requirements set out in Regulation 16 and Schedule 2 of the 2018 Regulations – take a look at the Regulations themselves for the details.
- Update -
Having seen a complete copy of a Northern Trains Penalty Fare notice in this thread, I now think it is essential to see a full copy of the PFN issued to the OP here, as it is entirely possible that it contains an explanation of the reason the penalty fare was charged that would negate the ground for appeal I previously recommended. In the present case, the image of the PFN @georgeiulian17 has uploaded appears to show only a small part of it and consequently may omit crucial detail in the absence of which useful advice cannot be offered. It's still appropriate to obscure details that identify the OP in any further copy of the PFN that is uploaded, but we need to see everything else it contains.
For the purposes of the statutory penalty fare scheme, the question of whether you bought your ticket after boarding the train on which you intended to travel is completely irrelevant. The only relevant question is whether, when required to do so, you produced a valid travel ticket. The advance ticket you purchased was not valid for the train you were on when approached by the operator's 'collector', and for that reason she had a legitimate basis on which to charge a penalty fare under Regulation 5(1) of the Railway (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, which can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/contents.
However, that's not an end to the matter, because Regulation 5(2) then goes on to require the train operator's collector who is charging the penalty fare to provide the person charged with various items of written information, including “an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare” (Regulation 5(2)(b)). If the collector failed to provide that explanation then “The penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these regulations.” (Regulation 16(3)(a), thereby raising a valid ground on which an appeal against the penalty fare can be mounted. Regulation 16(7) goes on to say that “If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in paragraph (3) applies, it must, subject to paragraph (10), allow the appeal.” This means that, unless the operator can convince the appeal panel that its collector did provide you with the required written explanation of why she was charging you a penalty fare, that panel must uphold your appeal, even though a valid basis for charging the penalty fare existed.
In your case the explanation given appears to be an 'Issue Reason' of “Other (PFN)”, which is then amplified under 'Grounds Info' as “Customer boarded train at horwhich parkway with a ticket he bought on board” There then follows an irrelevant statement about whether or not the 0730 train had been cancelled. The collector's statement that you “boarded train … with a ticket [you] bought on board” is so self-contradictory that I do not see how, as written, it can be regarded as any form of explanation of why the penalty fare was being charged. Looking beyond this 'explanation' and trying to attribute to it some intelligible meaning, it seems that the collector may have been trying to suggest that you purchased a ticket after boarding the train, and this entitled her to charge the penalty fare. But, as I've said, the time and place where you bought the ticket are irrelevant in the penalty fare context, and the only relevant consideration is whether you produced a valid ticket for your journey. As it turns out, you didn't, but inexplicably the collector has failed to provide that as the explanation for the penalty fare charged, even though it would have been an unassailable explanation in the context of an appeal.
I recommend you to appeal against the penalty fare on the Regulation 16(3)(a) ground that it “was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these regulations” by reason of the collector's failure to provide you with a valid or intelligible explanation of why the penalty fare was being charged, contrary to Regulation 5(2)(b). You would need to submit such an appeal in writing within 21 days from 16th August in accordance with the first stage appeal requirements set out in Regulation 16 and Schedule 2 of the 2018 Regulations – take a look at the Regulations themselves for the details.
- Update -
Having seen a complete copy of a Northern Trains Penalty Fare notice in this thread, I now think it is essential to see a full copy of the PFN issued to the OP here, as it is entirely possible that it contains an explanation of the reason the penalty fare was charged that would negate the ground for appeal I previously recommended. In the present case, the image of the PFN @georgeiulian17 has uploaded appears to show only a small part of it and consequently may omit crucial detail in the absence of which useful advice cannot be offered. It's still appropriate to obscure details that identify the OP in any further copy of the PFN that is uploaded, but we need to see everything else it contains.
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