Waterside Line (Southampton - Hythe)

[DaveHarries]

Greetings,

It may be of interest to any of our members in the area that Network Rail are developing proposals to bring passengers services back to the Southampton - Marchwood - Hythe line following the award of funding. A consultation is in progress which runs from today (Monday 08th August) until Friday 09th September.

Tweet: https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWssx/status/1556567538347163649?s=20&t=zOwXkvbqVdtF2jAUOdh3aw

Good morning - the consultation for reintroducing passenger services on the Waterside Line, near #Southampton, is now open. It runs until Friday 9 September

Page on NR website: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/wessex/the-waterside-line/

We are developing proposals that would see passenger services restored from Southampton Central to an upgraded station at Marchwood and a brand-new station in Hythe.


This would require the introduction of new railway infrastructure, particularly in the Hythe and Marchwood areas.

HTIOI,
Dave

 

[zwk500]

Was being discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/plans-to-reopen-totton-fawley-hythe-again.202260/page-5 as well

As this now seems to be firm progress, perhaps the speculative thread is best left alone for now. Doubtless there will be posts that get moved to it soon enough!

Re the actual proposals: this is all very positive. It's deliverable, beneficial and costs a relatively sensible amount of money. It's got problems to address, but hopefully it gets over the line!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder what the planned frequency would be? I assume a clockface hourly service.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder what the planned frequency would be? I assume a clockface hourly service.

Full service would eventually be 2tph. Very likely to start as 1tph to bed the line in, given how sensitive Southampton Central would be to delay. Aspirations existed for more but haven't been tested.
Trains would call Southampton, Totton, Marchwood, Hythe, skipping Millbrook and Redbridge.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder what the planned frequency would be? I assume a clockface hourly service.

There’s a lot of discussion in the linked speculation thread. I think hourly is most likely initially because a number of forum members explain there that a half hourly service would be impossible with one unit, but two units introduce very long layovers which is inefficient.

A problem we‘ll probably end up with is the discussion of services almost always introduces fantasy extensions, at which point the moderators move the whole thing into speculation again…

 

[nw1]

Good news. I think the key thing for now is to ensure it connects well (5-15 min connection) with London services at Southampton Central - hourly will suffice for now I suspect as long as that criterion is met.

 

[zwk500]

There’s a lot of discussion in the linked speculation thread. I think hourly is most likely initially because a number of forum members explain there that a half hourly service would be impossible with one unit, but two units introduce very long layovers which is inefficient.

The layovers were an interesting one for the service that was eventually identified. One unit had a short turn at one end but longish layover at the other, while the other had relatively even turnrounds, each of which was just about the length the performance people thought was needed to recover marginal delay.

 

[nw1]

The layovers were an interesting one for the service that was eventually identified. One unit had a short turn at one end but longish layover at the other, while the other had relatively even turnrounds, each of which was just about the length the performance people thought was needed to recover marginal delay.

That implies that the two-unit service was not clockface half-hourly I guess?

Understandable given that some services on the main line are hourly (XC, Poole stopper, GWR, Salisbury stopper) so might be difficult to slot in a perfect 30-min interval service. But as I said above, hourly would do initially, as long as connections are good.

 

[DaveHarries]

Was being discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/plans-to-reopen-totton-fawley-hythe-again.202260/page-5 as well

As this now seems to be firm progress, perhaps the speculative thread is best left alone for now. Doubtless there will be posts that get moved to it soon enough!

Re the actual proposals: this is all very positive. It's deliverable, beneficial and costs a relatively sensible amount of money. It's got problems to address, but hopefully it gets over the line!

Thanks. I thought there was a thread for it somewhere but couldn't recall where. That part of the forum is not one I normally look in.

Dave

 

[zwk500]

That implies that the two-unit service was not clockface half-hourly I guess?

Clockface (or near enough, I think it shifted by 1 minute between each hour), just not 30-minute even intervals. Wasn't bad though, something like 25/35 minutes.

Understandable given that some services on the main line are hourly (XC, stopper) so might be difficult to slot in a perfect 30-min interval service. But as I said above, hourly would do initially, as long as connections are good.

The connections were pretty good with the London trains, although at this point I'm going to put a MASSIVE caveat on the schedules and point out that they were done as a purely exploratory exercise for a 2-hour off-peak period on a developmental timetable, and could easily bear no relation to what eventually ends up being the planned service.

Re the 1/2 tph question, point 4 on the FAQs on the NR website gives a little clue:

4. Will the roads be busier as a result of level crossing barriers being down more often? Yes the new train services will mean more trains travelling over the level crossings the barriers will need to close when this happens. The current proposals mean this could happen up to four times within one hour, this could mean that the roads near the level crossings will be busier. However, the project is undertaking a transport assessment as part of the Environmental Impact Assessment and will use this report to implement mitigation measures where appropriate.

Four closures an hour = 2tph in each direction.

 

[Brush 4]

How were the Hampshire units diagrammed up to 1966? Was it an hourly service and did they do any fill-in turns elsewhere? Was it always Fawley-Southampton Central or were there longer turns to say, Eastleigh?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

By the summer of '65 there were only two return trips to Fawley, an 0627 SX from Eastleigh due 0724 (a Fratton depot start), returning as 0806 Fawley to Portsmouth & Southsea, thence bounced around on Ports, Eastleigh, Romsey services etc. The other was a Salisbury start, doing likewise prior to working 1551 SX Eastleigh to Fawley due 1639 and going back as 1648 Fawley to Pompey Harbour. Both diagrammed as 3H.

 

[Dougal2345]

By the summer of '65 there were only two return trips to Fawley, an 0627 SX from Eastleigh due 0724 (a Fratton depot start), returning as 0806 Fawley to Portsmouth & Southsea, thence bounced around on Ports, Eastleigh, Romsey services etc. The other was a Salisbury start, doing likewise prior to working 1551 SX Eastleigh to Fawley due 1639 and going back as 1648 Fawley to Pompey Harbour. Both diagrammed as 3H.

Crikey, that wasn't much of a service! Did the line ever have a regular hourly (or two-hourly) service at any time in its history?

 

[The exile]

Crikey, that wasn't much of a service! Did the line ever have a regular hourly (or two-hourly) service at any time in its history?

Outside of electrified suburban services, the “regular interval” timetable is a relatively new phenomenon- almost certain that “Beechinged” lines will never have seen one.

 

[nw1]

Outside of electrified suburban services, the “regular interval” timetable is a relatively new phenomenon- almost certain that “Beechinged” lines will never have seen one.

Not so sure (and I realise this is OT - maybe time for another thread on this topic), looking at some of the old timetables on TimetableWorld there were examples of clockface hourly services away from suburban services from the 1960s, including some services cut by Beeching (Coventry-Leamington springs to mind).

How were the Hampshire units diagrammed up to 1966? Was it an hourly service and did they do any fill-in turns elsewhere? Was it always Fawley-Southampton Central or were there longer turns to say, Eastleigh?

@Big Jumby 74 has answered this, but in relation to the proposed service: I wonder if it would make sense to separate out the current Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey service into two separate services, Salisbury-Southampton and Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey, should the line reopen?

This could give more flexibility, with the possibility of the Hythe interworking with one of the two other routes if this meant a more frequent service (at busy times) with less overall units was possible. But obviously this would come later, once the base service has been introduced.

Crikey, that wasn't much of a service! Did the line ever have a regular hourly (or two-hourly) service at any time in its history?

So essentially just for commuters to Fawley works, I guess.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder if it would make sense to separate out the current Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey service into two separate services, Salisbury-Southampton and Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey, should the line reopen?

There is not the platform capacity to do so. For the avoidance of doubt: every reasonably plausible variation of services with the Romaey Rocket and Waterside line has been looked at, and the standalone shuttle is the only one that has a hope of working without a complete rebuild of Southampton central.

This could give more flexibility, with the possibility of the Hythe interworking with one of the two other routes if this meant a more frequent service (at busy times) with less overall units was possible.

A half hourly service on the Hythe line requires 2 units between Southamtpn Central and Hythe. I don't see how you could interwork them into any other service and drop 2 units out of the other patterns. And that's before we get to the numerous operational disadvantages that interlocking brings.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is not the platform capacity to do so. For the avoidance of doubt: every reasonably plausible variation of services with the Romaey Rocket and Waterside line has been looked at, and the standalone shuttle is the only one that has a hope of working without a complete rebuild of Southampton central.

A half hourly service on the Hythe line requires 2 units between Southamtpn Central and Hythe. I don't see how you could interwork them into any other service and drop 2 units out of the other patterns. And that's before we get to the numerous operational disadvantages that interlocking brings.

Two good reasons why I wrote what I did in post #5. All this discussion about extensions to the service will take this infrastructure thread into speculation territory all over again...

 

[Snow1964]

How were the Hampshire units diagrammed up to 1966? Was it an hourly service and did they do any fill-in turns elsewhere? Was it always Fawley-Southampton Central or were there longer turns to say, Eastleigh?

In 1966 There were some workings Southampton (Terminus)- Winchester-Alton, and until few years earlier had been used on Southampton-Romsey-Andover route.

So possibly didn’t do dedicated services all day

 

[Dougal2345]

Yes, at the end of the day, even with just the shuttle service, Hythe and Marchwood residents will be getting a link to the biggest interchange station in the area with frequent connections to just about anywhere. It's a much better deal than, say, residents of Lymington or Sheerness-on-Sea get...

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There is not the platform capacity to do so.

I can understand that. Southampton Central was always a bit of a mare once all through services/operators and terminators had been taken in to account. As many will know p5 was never/is not (yet?) signalled to allow a passenger service to arrive therein, so when diagramming units to the bay, they would have to arrive in one of p1-4 then shunt, via either the DF or Down goods loop, and any unit sitting in the DGL for extended time had to be crewed, unlike the Up Loop where stock could be stabled - short term wise for engineering work.
There's also the crewing aspect to take account of, given the location is effectively on the borders of both Salisbury and Fratton depot's diesel work (does SWR still have diesel crew diagrams at FR? - some of us fought hard to keep diesel work down there some years back, for operational flexibility if nothing else, despite pressure from above to do away with same........)

 

[zwk500]

I can understand that. Southampton Central was always a bit of a mare once all through services/operators and terminators had been taken in to account. As many will know p5 was never/is not (yet?) signalled to allow a passenger service to arrive therein, so when diagramming units to the bay, they would have to arrive in one of p1-4 then shunt, via either the DF or Down goods loop, and any unit sitting in the DGL for extended time had to be crewed, unlike the Up Loop where stock could be stabled - short term wise for engineering work.

P5 is not signalled for passenger arrivals or departures, but will need to be upgraded to allow 2tph Southampton to Hythe. Tbf the shunt can take place on the UF or UGL as well, but then you've got to cross the throat.

There's also the crewing aspect to take account of, given the location is effectively on the borders of both Salisbury and Fratton depot's diesel work (does SWR still have diesel crew diagrams at FR? - some of us fought hard to keep diesel work down there some years back, for operational flexibility if nothing else, despite pressure from above to do away with same........)

Believe the depot/crewing arrangements are still to be finalised. No idea about Fratton, but Salisbury was a strong contender with Basingstoke another option.

 

[30907]

Crikey, that wasn't much of a service! Did the line ever have a regular hourly (or two-hourly) service at any time in its history?

No. In steam days there were 3 trains one way and 2 the other IIRC. With a bit of splitting at Fawley. Timetableworld has the 1958 SR timetable if you're really interested.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Tbf the shunt can take place on the UF or UGL as well, but then you've got to cross the throat.

Absolutely, quite so, I just tend to comment based on my signalling background from where I learnt it was always best to keep moves as simple and conflict free as possible. A very beneficial lesson given my later involvement with Waterloo, a location that if the plan worked well the rest of the network stood a fair chance, but screw the plan up at Waterloo and the whole network could easily unravel....

PS: FAO Mods: just noticed some posts relating to this have been moved to elsewhere. Apologies if I (we) are in the wrong place......

 

[zwk500]

Absolutely, quite so, I just tend to comment based on my signalling background from where I learnt it was always best to keep moves as simple and conflict free as possible. A very beneficial lesson given my later involvement with Waterloo, a location that if the plan worked well the rest of the network stood a fair chance, but screw the plan up at Waterloo and the whole network could easily unravel....

Indeed! It's one of the reasons Platform 5 is a huge risk: any arriving train has to get across both Down Lines, and can only wait so long on the Up Slow. It's made even worse by the conflicting overlaps on Platforms 3/4. Getting the right gaps was an absolute sodding nightmare.

I think the thread linked to in post #2 is officially the 'speculative' thread, presumably some of the recent questions have been moved to a History thread, leaving this one purely for confirmed, factual discussion of the actual proposed service.

 

[William3000]

Full service would eventually be 2tph. Very likely to start as 1tph to bed the line in, given how sensitive Southampton Central would be to delay. Aspirations existed for more but haven't been tested.
Trains would call Southampton, Totton, Marchwood, Hythe, skipping Millbrook and Redbridge.

That’s a shame about Redbridge and Millbrook; not sure what the time delay would be but would be an amazing opportunity to develop decent services for Southampton’s suburban stations.

 

[zwk500]

That’s a shame about Redbridge and Millbrook; not sure what the time delay would be but would be an amazing opportunity to develop decent services for Southampton’s suburban stations.

The problem is both stations are in the common section so stopping really eats up the available space. Both are already served by the Romsey rocket, and tbh both are pretty badly sited for the areas they claim to serve so you could give it the best service in the world and people still would prefer bus or car.

 

[nw1]

There is not the platform capacity to do so. For the avoidance of doubt: every reasonably plausible variation of services with the Romaey Rocket and Waterside line has been looked at, and the standalone shuttle is the only one that has a hope of working without a complete rebuild of Southampton central.

A half hourly service on the Hythe line requires 2 units between Southamtpn Central and Hythe. I don't see how you could interwork them into any other service and drop 2 units out of the other patterns. And that's before we get to the numerous operational disadvantages that interlocking brings.

Yes, fair points. I was just thinking that, given the long 40 min layover at Salisbury for that service, there might have been a theoretical rearrangement of diagrams which allowed the Hythe service to be somehow slotted into the circuits for that service without extra units being needed. Thinking about it, though, reducing the layover at Salisbury from say 40 mins to 5 mins in a best-case scenario would only give 35 mins to get back to Hythe and back, which would be insufficient.

Yes, at the end of the day, even with just the shuttle service, Hythe and Marchwood residents will be getting a link to the biggest interchange station in the area with frequent connections to just about anywhere. It's a much better deal than, say, residents of Lymington or Sheerness-on-Sea get...

Yes, that's a good point, and certainly what to aim for initially.

The problem is both stations are in the common section so stopping really eats up the available space. Both are already served by the Romsey rocket, and tbh both are pretty badly sited for the areas they claim to serve so you could give it the best service in the world and people still would prefer bus or car.

It would also give a direct link from those stations to Totton, and thence to the New Forest by connection.

It's an interesting one. If the service is kept as an hourly shuttle, presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to add the stops though. On the other hand, skipping the stops increases the attractiveness from Hythe as a non-stop run on the mainline would mean the train would be clearly seen as a fast option into Southampton, better than the bus.

 

[zwk500]

It would also give a direct link from those stations to Totton, and thence to the New Forest by connection.

A link they have already by connecting at Southampton which is a far more attractive place to layover with more regular trains towards Bournemouth.

It's an interesting one. If the service is kept as an hourly shuttle, presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to add the stops though. On the other hand, skipping the stops increases the attractiveness from Hythe as a non-stop run on the mainline would mean the train would be clearly seen as a fast option into Southampton, better than the bus.

It's not the frequency, but the other trains around it that stops the other stations being added in. The Shuttle needs to meet 3 key constraints: The single line at Marchwood, The Junction Margin at Redbridge and the Junction Margin at Southampton Central. It was particularly the stops in the down that stuffed it, because of the gap you had to pick out of Southampton Central. It wasn't helped by needing to use Platform 5, which is outside the Down Fast, so to serve Millbrook would have required an additional conflict on departure from Southampton.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Full service would eventually be 2tph. Very likely to start as 1tph to bed the line in, given how sensitive Southampton Central would be to delay. Aspirations existed for more but haven't been tested.
Trains would call Southampton, Totton, Marchwood, Hythe, skipping Millbrook and Redbridge.

Is that the branch as the line to Fawley?

 

[nw1]

Is that the branch as the line to Fawley?

Yes, though the service is only proposed as far as Hythe, at least for now.