WCML stopping patterns and journey times

[route101]

One thing to remember before 2007 what is now the Birmingham/Manchester to Scotland via Carlisle services were run by Virgin Cross Country. Until 2004 as well the Manchester to Scotland services connected with the South West/South Coast services I know one service went from Reading-Birmingham-Stoke-Manchester-Preston-Edinburgh-Aberdeen. The Birmingham to Scotland via Warrington trains connected with trains that ran to the South/South West until 2007.

Until 2003 when the Voyagers were introduced it was common for the trains that ran via Manchester to do an engine change at Preston as at the time the Manchester to Preston line wasn't electrified. The engine change would take around 10 mins.

Yes , Aberdeen/ Glasgow services went to WCML via Manchester to Bournemouth i think. I think very few if any XC services went from Glasgow down ECML.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very interesting. Like hearing quirky regulations such as that. Thanks.

You being a good operator -would appreciate a local instruction issued to both Watford and Bletchley boxes not to stop 321 sets at certain signals at Bushey / Berko and Wolverton on curved sections for exceptional periods (disruption for example) as the "Bucholz" oil reservoir would leave key areas exposed and the pans would automatically drop . Absolute pain in the backside but a combination of good operator and technical advice , plus some excellent regulation instructions reduced these issues.

 

[LRV3004]

Yes , Aberdeen/ Glasgow services went to WCML via Manchester to Bournemouth i think. I think very few if any XC services went from Glasgow down ECML.

The "Cornishman" from Dundee to Penzance and Penzance to Edinburgh went via the ECML, as did the "Dorset Scot" (Edinburgh to Bournemouth). Not many though as you say; the majority ran via the WCML. In the days of loco hauled, those that went via Manchester did indeed change locos at Preston - to/from the south it was a 47/8, with an 86/2 between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

[hexagon789]

The "Cornishman" from Dundee to Penzance and Penzance to Edinburgh went via the ECML, as did the "Dorset Scot" (Edinburgh to Bournemouth). Not many though as you say; the majority ran via the WCML. In the days of loco hauled, those that went via Manchester did indeed change locos at Preston - to/from the south it was a 47/8, with an 86/2 between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

There were some XC HSTs from Plymouth/Penzance that went to Glasgow via the WCML then reversed and went to Edinburgh in the '90s

with an 86/2 between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Sometimes an 87, in one report I read the recorder had his highest recorded speed in a Mk2 coach - 111mph!

 

[thenorthern]

Yes , Aberdeen/ Glasgow services went to WCML via Manchester to Bournemouth i think. I think very few if any XC services went from Glasgow down ECML.

It varied over time where the services to Aberdeen came from.

Regarding the CrossCountry trains to Glasgow until 2010 I think it was one train per day was extended to Glasgow from Edinburgh. It was the East Coast services to Glasgow were reduced to the single daily service which still exists today and to compensate for this some CrossCountry services from Edinburgh were extended to Glasgow to provide a two-hourly service.

 

[route101]

It varied over time where the services to Aberdeen came from.

Regarding the CrossCountry trains to Glasgow until 2010 I think it was one train per day was extended to Glasgow from Edinburgh. It was the East Coast services to Glasgow were reduced to the single daily service which still exists today and to compensate for this some CrossCountry services from Edinburgh were extended to Glasgow to provide a two-hourly service.

I remember going on a late XC from Edinburgh to Glasgow around late 2008. There was still Glasgow to Bournemouth services until 2010 too.

 

[GW43125]

Won't from December. Might come back for May 21.

Is 1R14 disappearing too then?

 

[The Planner]

Is 1R14 disappearing too then?

Yes and no, it is still there but will stop International and Coventry and run in the path of 1R16.

 

[GW43125]

Yes and no, it is still there but will stop International and Coventry and run in the path of 1R16.

Ah I see, thanks!
Makes sense though, I've heard it's not exactly busy at the moment.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Ah I see, thanks!
Makes sense though, I've heard it's not exactly busy at the moment.

If 1R14 is going, does this mean that we might lose the other faster service from Manchester (1R18) and Liverpool (1R19), if these services aren't busy at all and may not get busy even after Covid is gone would there be a case to drop them?

What's the point in running a faster service if nobody is using them?

 

[jfollows]

Maybe just for clarity for myself (I'm mainly restating things said earlier in this thread), but in the December timetable:

1R14, 07:05 Wolverhampton to Euston, currently non-stop from Birmingham New Street at 07:30, will add calls at International (07:42) and Coventry (07:53) and arrive Euston at 08:49, instead of today's 08:43. Today's 1R16, 07:42 from International and Coventry, won't run.

1R18, 07:01 Manchester Piccadilly to Euston calling only at Stockport won't run.

1R19, 07:00 Liverpool to Euston will run (the one which calls at Runcorn only), presumably because the more frequent service from Manchester allows for the cancellation of 1R18 whereas Liverpool's less frequent service leaves too long a gap until 1R27, 07:47 Liverpool-Euston.

It's all shown at https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/EUS/2020-12-30/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt, for example, and this doesn't mean it's set in stone today. Looking at the sequence of 1Rxx arrivals in Euston, they're all there in December apart from 1R16 and 1R18.

1R17, 06:43 Manchester to Euston via Wilmslow retains its Milton Keynes stop, which was squeezed in earlier this year. It used to run non-stop from Stafford. Today 1R18 is in danger of catching up with it there, but from December 1R18 won't be running so there's a good gap allowing the extra stop.

It appears like a sensible response to changed circumstances to me.

Morning up service to London Euston from the December 2020 timetable, SX starting 13/12/2020:

(Service information taken from RealTime Trains for service on 30 December 2020, extracted on 19 October 2020, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...0/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT )

1R01 05:24 Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 07:13
1R02 05:05 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Crewe. Stafford, Nuneaton, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 07:25
1R03 05:45 Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, London Euston 07:28
1R04 05:45 Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 07:33
1R05 05:26 Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Crewe. Stafford, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 07:50
1R06 06:04 Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction, London Euston 07:59
1R07 05:13 Lancaster, Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, Rugby, London Euston 08:03
1R08 05:55 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 08:10
1R09 06:27 Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 08:17
1R10 06:10 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Rugby, London Euston 08:20
1R11 06:05 Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Stafford, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, London Euston 08:23
1R12 06:45 Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 08:33
1R13 04:48 Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Chester, Crewe, Nuneaton, London Euston 08:41
1K14 05:30 Blackpool North, Poulton-le-Fylde, Kirkham & Wesham, Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe, joins 1R13
1R14 07:05 Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, London Euston 08:49 (formerly non-stop from Birmingham New Street to London Euston 08:43)
1R15 06:35 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Rugby, London Euston 08:46
1R16 does not run (formerly 07:42 Birmingham International, Coventry, London Euston 08:51)
1R17 06:43 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Stafford, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 08:57
1R18 does not run (formerly 07:01 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, London Euston 09:00)
1R19 07:00 Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, London Euston 09:03
1R20 04:28 Glasgow Central, Carlisle, Penrith North Lakes, Oxenholme Lake District, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, London Euston 09:08
1R21 06:39 Shrewsbury, Wellington, Telford Central, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, London Euston 09:15
1R22 07:15 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Stoke-on-Trent, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 09:20
9R23 06:27 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Watford Junction, London Euston 09:33
1R24 05:51 Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Chester, Crewe, Rugby, London Euston 09:39
1R25 07:35 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Nuneaton, Watford Junction, London Euston 09:49
1R26 08:30 Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 09:53
1R27 07:47 Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, London Euston 09:59
1R28 07:55 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, London Euston 10:16
1A12 08:15 Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Stoke-on-Trent, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston 10:26

... and then onwards in the more regular service pattern for the rest of the day

"formerly" above means "as on Monday 19 October" or "as in the May 2020 timetable, as implemented from September 14 2020"

 

[73128]

Yes it was.

as i recall, at one time calling only at Preston and later also at Carlisle

I remember the 10:30 off Glasgow had stops only at Carlisle, Penrith, Preston and London Euston. That one was the Southbound Royal Scot right? Nowadays it is just like a regular service but with a random call at Rugby.

Wasn't the reason for additional stops on the 16:30 because of places like Warrington, Wigan and Lancaster having an abnormal gap in the Scotland services?

with the 87s in 1974, Glasgow had roughly a two hourly frequency fast service at even xx10 south, but I have happy memories of my usual WC rover train home, the last one, the 1730 Glasgow, 1851 Carlisle, 1959 Preston at one time fast to Watford, and later with a Crewe stop inserted. Euston 2237.

 

[Scotrail314209]

as i recall, at one time calling only at Preston and later also at Carlisle


with the 87s in 1974, Glasgow had roughly a two hourly frequency fast service at even xx10 south, but I have happy memories of my usual WC rover train home, the last one, the 1730 Glasgow, 1851 Carlisle, 1959 Preston at one time fast to Watford, and later with a Crewe stop inserted. Euston 2237.

That 17:30 is still the same time today. I believe it's currently regulated to the slow lines south of Milton Keynes.

 

[Ianno87]

That 17:30 is still the same time today. I believe it's currently regulated to the slow lines south of Milton Keynes.

By the time it gets to MK it'll be into two track railway hours.

 

[Scotrail314209]

By the time it gets to MK it'll be into two track railway hours.

Judging by RTT, it looks like it just misses out on the two track hours. Behind it comes 1A72 from Manchester and 9M60 from Edinburgh which is the last service to run down the fasts. First southbound on the slows is 1A74 from Liverpool.

Since 1974 it's only lost 10 minutes in terms of reduction, with its arrival time now 22:27.

 

[Ianno87]

Judging by RTT, it looks like it just misses out on the two track hours. Behind it comes 1A72 from Manchester and 9M60 from Edinburgh which is the last service to run down the fasts. First southbound on the slows is 1A74 from Liverpool.

Since 1974 it's only lost 10 minutes in terms of reduction, with its arrival time now 22:27.

Actually, you're right - weekday two track starts at 2230.

 

[hexagon789]

with the 87s in 1974, Glasgow had roughly a two hourly frequency fast service at even xx10 south, but I have happy memories of my usual WC rover train home, the last one, the 1730 Glasgow, 1851 Carlisle, 1959 Preston at one time fast to Watford, and later with a Crewe stop inserted. Euston 2237.

There was almost an hourly frequency taking into account the various dated trains but certain trains ran only on certain dates so that for the entire currency of the timetable there were eight Euston-Glasgow trains compared with five pre-electrification which gave a vaguely two-hourly frequency from Glasgow at XX:10 odd hours until 1010 then on evens until 1410:
0710, 0715 via Dumfries, 0910, 1010 Royal Scot, 1110 dated SO, 1210, 1310 dated FSO, 1410, 1610 and 1730

Northbound trains were at XX:45 and a slightly tidier pattern:
0745, 0845, 1045 Royal Scot, 1145, 1245 dated SO, 1345, 1445 dated FSO, 1545 via Dumfries, 1645 and 1745

The Royal Scot of course was Preston only and five hours dead each way. The other trains all called additionally at Carlisle and many at Motherwell and/or Watford Junction and most took 5 hrs 7 mins even with three stops. One train each way of the eight ran via Dumfries.

One service each way made a call at Lockerbie and one called at Lancaster additionally northbound and the southbound 'via Dumfries' called also at at Penrith, Oxenholme and Lancaster; one or two made a call at Crewe and these took a bit longer as well.

Nevertheless quite a revolutionary service of fast air-conditioned trains and it made WCML Anglo-Scottish trains faster than the ECML for some years at 5hrs vs 5.5hrs (or 5 hrs 07 vs ~5hrs 40-~6hrs10 for the non-named lesser trains) plus you had the improved Glasgow/Edinburgh-Manchester/Liverpool & Glasgow-Birmingham service which were all increased from one a day to 4 a day and had at least 30 mins cut from the schedules.

 

[Scotrail314209]

There was almost an hourly frequency taking into account the various dated trains but certain trains ran only on certain dates so that for the entire currency of the timetable there were eight Euston-Glasgow trains compared with five pre-electrification which gave a vaguely two-hourly frequency from Glasgow at XX:10 odd hours until 1010 then on evens until 1410:
0710, 0715 via Dumfries, 0910, 1010 Royal Scot, 1110 dated SO, 1210, 1310 dated FSO, 1410, 1610 and 1730

Northbound trains were at XX:45 and a slightly tidier pattern:
0745, 0845, 1045 Royal Scot, 1145, 1245 dated SO, 1345, 1445 dated FSO, 1545 via Dumfries, 1645 and 1745

The Royal Scot of course was Preston only and five hours dead each way. The other trains all called additionally at Carlisle and many at Motherwell and/or Watford Junction and most took 5 hrs 7 mins even with three stops. One train each way of the eight ran via Dumfries.

One service each way made a call at Lockerbie and one called at Lancaster additionally northbound and the southbound 'via Dumfries' called also at at Penrith, Oxenholme and Lancaster; one or two made a call at Crewe and these took a bit longer as well.

Nevertheless quite a revolutionary service of fast air-conditioned trains and it made WCML Anglo-Scottish trains faster than the ECML for some years at 5hrs vs 5.5hrs (or 5 hrs 07 vs ~5hrs 40-~6hrs10 for the non-named lesser trains) plus you had the improved Glasgow/Edinburgh-Manchester/Liverpool & Glasgow-Birmingham service which were all increased from one a day to 4 a day and had at least 30 mins cut from the schedules.

Compared to that, to me it seems like the WCML is getting gradually slower, and will continue to slow once HS2 is in. I'm not sure if it's a result of COVID, but it takes an extra 30 minutes to get to Euston from Glasgow now.. not sure if it's slack.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Compared to that, to me it seems like the WCML is getting gradually slower, and will continue to slow once HS2 is in. I'm not sure if it's a result of COVID, but it takes an extra 30 minutes to get to Euston from Glasgow now.. not sure if it's slack.

I believe it's COVID related and is because of pathing as a result of needing to put extra stops in (to replace other services) without rewriting the whole timetable.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I believe it's COVID related and is because of pathing as a result of needing to put extra stops in (to replace other services) without rewriting the whole timetable.

I understand that right now the Northbound Glasgow is running in the Chester path, with an extended dwell at Crewe to allow it to slot into the XX:30, and when the Chester service runs, that uses the Glasgow path and I believe is non stop from London - Crewe, or does it include it's stop at Milton Keynes?

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand that right now the Northbound Glasgow is running in the Chester path, with an extended dwell at Crewe to allow it to slot into the XX:30, and when the Chester service runs, that uses the Glasgow path and I believe is non stop from London - Crewe, or does it include it's stop at Milton Keynes?

Non stop.

Northbound the 20 minutes disappears as 9 minutes pathing time south of Crewe, 6 minutes for a slightly extended Crewe stop, and an extra 3 minutes at Preston, with the rest lost in the rounding.

Southbound it’s almost all in an extended Crewe stop to match the paths.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Non stop.

Northbound the 20 minutes disappears as 9 minutes pathing time south of Crewe, 6 minutes for a slightly extended Crewe stop, and an extra 3 minutes at Preston, with the rest lost in the rounding.

Southbound it’s almost all in an extended Crewe stop to match the paths.

I have also noticed that the 11:30 Chester service has a ludicrous path on the way up. Non stop to Stafford where it waits for 12 minutes, then to Crewe where it waits for a further 32 minutes.. is this so it can slot into the 12:10 path as it departs Crewe at 13:50. Yesterday it ran early meaning it had 45 minutes at Crewe.

 

[route101]

Hopefully Glasgow will get the Birmingham services back. Dont recall the times of these changed much since Virgin XC days.

 

[hexagon789]

Compared to that, to me it seems like the WCML is getting gradually slower, and will continue to slow once HS2 is in. I'm not sure if it's a result of COVID, but it takes an extra 30 minutes to get to Euston from Glasgow now.. not sure if it's slack.

Well for a 100mph ceiling and a load of 455 tonnes I think it was quite fast really, 125mph and tilt has saved about 30-40 mins. The COVID situation is of course behind the present slowing though I agree post-HS2 the classic line services will likely be slowed.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I would love for there to be loads of £10-20 Advances on the 06:27 Manchester to London given it's an hour slower. Maybe there will be and have been prior to lockdown 2, or even pre-COVID. Manchester and Stockport to London can already be done in 3 hours and a bit via Northern/London Midland if the connection in Crewe is good - it's closer to 4 hours if, like me a fortnight ago, you have over half an hour there.

 

[Starmill]

I would love for there to be loads of £10-20 Advances on the 06:27 Manchester to London given it's an hour slower. Maybe there will be and have been prior to lockdown 2, or even pre-COVID. Manchester and Stockport to London can already be done in 3 hours and a bit via Northern/London Midland if the connection in Crewe is good - it's closer to 4 hours if, like me a fortnight ago, you have over half an hour there.

Why would Avanti want Manchester to London passengers using that service? They'll only take seats up that they then cannot sell to West Midlands to London passengers. Of course, if you want cheap tickets the 0714 Crewe to London Euston is cheaper still.

 

[Ianno87]

Why would Avanti want Manchester to London passengers using that service? They'll only take seats up that they then cannot sell to West Midlands to London passengers. Of course, if you want cheap tickets the 0714 Crewe to London Euston is cheaper still.

The 0627 was effectively a Pendolino used for capacity on a peak Manchester-Birmingham service (being an 0805 New Street arrival), that then formed a Birmingham-Euston service. The last thing it would've done pre-Covid was cart fresh air.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Why would Avanti want Manchester to London passengers using that service? They'll only take seats up that they then cannot sell to West Midlands to London passengers. Of course, if you want cheap tickets the 0714 Crewe to London Euston is cheaper still.

Okay cheap Manchester to Stafford then cheap Stafford to London since the 06:27 goes via Stoke not via Crewe. 15 minutes' connection is pleasant without being too long. The Avanti is booked to overtake the LM at Milton Keynes from what I can gather as it becomes fast after Coventry.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Okay cheap Manchester to Stafford then cheap Stafford to London since the 06:27 goes via Stoke not via Crewe. 15 minutes' connection is pleasant without being too long. The Avanti is booked to overtake the LM at Milton Keynes from what I can gather as it becomes fast after Coventry.

This train is (or was pre-Covid) fairly full Manchester-Birmingham & Wolverhampton-Euston. I can’t see any need (in normal times) to discount this train, it’s full enough.

 

[Starmill]

This train is (or was pre-Covid) fairly full Manchester-Birmingham & Wolverhampton-Euston. I can’t see any need (in normal times) to discount this train, it’s full enough.

That was the point I was trying to get at! Compared to the 0855 and 0915 which were very lightly loaded - of course Avanti knew that and tactically kept the price high anyway.