WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Falcon1200]

I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

Many millions of people had been managing without central door locking for 150 years since railways began.

Some people certainly did not manage without central door locking (CDL) back in those good old days; Passengers opening doors, inadvertently or otherwise, on moving trains and falling to their death was a regular occurrence. Which was why BR started fitting CDL in the first place.

 

[anothertyke]

But the whole point of this is that WCR were given a license to operate with door stewards, which they then conveniently forgot about and told the passengers to operate the door bolts themselves, how people keep on making excuses for these clowns completely escapes me, just because it went like that when I wert a kid etc etc, well it isn't the 60s anymore the world has happily moved on just because WCR can't, won't or don't want to will not wash anymore

Is that the whole point though? ORR's decision to terminate the exemption regime was made long before the problems at Fort William last summer. And the appropriate remedy for one operator not complying with their licensing conditions is to suspend their licence until a remedy is in place. That's what happened. ORR were very careful not to argue at the JR that their case depended on events with the Jacobite. It was and needed to be a sector wide decision.

 

[paul1609]

But what is the evidence of what has actually happened on stewarded trains with slam doors since 1998? Maybe I've got this wrong, but I think the actual number of deaths is zero, the actual number of casualties is zero ( the person who broke their leg on the Great Central fell out of a non-stewarded train) and the number of reported incidents which might have led to injury is 2 (Bath Spa and York). Is that factually correct?

Then step 2 is to balance risk reduction against cost so as to estimate the payoff. Will CDL materially reduce risk? Will CDL without selective increase risk at places with short platforms? Will it work faultlessly? Obviously that's where the judgement comes in. Personally I thought the ORR's case viewed on the evidence was not that strong. But this is one of those situations where ALARP might say one thing and cost/benefit another.

Of course that position does depend on the operators doing what they commit to in terms of stewarding.

The Great Central Case I think your refering to was a photographer jumping out of a stationary train on to a platform ramp from the leading door of a MK1 set.
The stopping position of the train was determined by the water tank arm as it had been since BR days. For CDL to remove that risk it would need to be able to only release the doors adjacent to a platform edge which as I understand it even most mainline stock cant do. The ORR told the heritage railways to risk asses it based on their own circumstances. In our case as a result we now lock the leading door and the last door out of use on a 5 car MK1 set to remove the risk. The addition of CDL wouldnt reduce the risk further.

 

[Statto]

Because it's decades since tens of thousands of people did that, memories of the dangers have faded and a large proportion of the population have never even seen a train without power doors. I'm sure this has been covered in this thread at least once before.

I remember cases in the 80s were doors opened on express trains when at speed & passengers fell out with fatal results, one area became known as the Tamworth Triangle because of it, so CDL was brought in because of it

Whether WCRC like it or not they have to abide by ORR rules, feels to me WCRC managers think the railway is their own train set & the rules are for everyone else, this operator is becoming quite notorious now for so many avoidable issues over the last decade.

 

[Bill57p9]

Is that the whole point though? ORR's decision to terminate the exemption regime was made long before the problems at Fort William last summer. And the appropriate remedy for one operator not complying with their licensing conditions is to suspend their licence until a remedy is in place. That's what happened. ORR were very careful not to argue at the JR that their case depended on events with the Jacobite. It was and needed to be a sector wide decision.

Last year's prohibition notice served on the Jacobite was because WCRC were found to not be following their own published safe method of non-CDL working - such as encouraging passengers to operate the doors. To me that suggests a safety culture shortcoming.

This was not related to the JR but did coincide. ORR has been clear that operators would be expected to do more regarding CDL.

Personally I share the disappointment that we can no longer have open drop lights to enjoy the sound of a locomotive working hard but accept that this time has passed in the interest of safety.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with the rules and ignoring them.

Presumably if someone offered to fund CDL fitment, would WCRC suddenly find it possible after all?

 

[renegademaster]

If someone were to fall to their death out of a moving heritage train, it would very much not be just “ultimately their own problem”. Rightly or wrongly, if you are running a business and inviting people in you are obliged to take steps to safeguard their wellbeing, and that goes beyond just putting a sign up where there is a demonstrable risk of someone coming to serious harm. What WCRC are being asked to do here is entirely in line with the standards that society as a whole expects and is held to.

People and the government tolerate leisure activities with much more risk. If people cant be trusted to not open a door while a train is moving they certainly cant be trusted to mountain bike

 

[Towers]

People and the government tolerate leisure activities with much more risk

Does a serious casualty in those activies also potentially stop part of the national infrastructure from fuctioning for many hours?

 

[renegademaster]

Does a serious casualty in those activies also potentially stop part of the national infrastructure from fuctioning for many hours?

For motorcycling, yes

 

[AM9]

People and the government tolerate leisure activities with much more risk. If people cant be trusted to not open a door while a train is moving they certainly cant be trusted to mountain bike

A complete non-sequitur! An opened door on a moving train can affect others, both on the train, on a platform and even on another train. A mountiain bike is only a threat to it's rider, unless there is an organised event when the organisers will effectively be held accountable for any forseeable injuries to other riders or non-riders. How many off public road incidents have there been where an incompetent montain bike rider has killed or seriously injured another rider or a bystander?

 

[Llanigraham]

A complete non-sequitur! An opened door on a moving train can affect others, both on the train, on a platform and even on another train. A mountiain bike is only a threat to it's rider, unless there is an organised event when the organisers will effectively be held accountable for any forseeable injuries to other riders or non-riders. How many off public road incidents have there been where an incompetent montain bike rider has killed or seriously injured another rider or a bystander?

There has been atleast one downhill mountain bike competitor killed and a couple of spectators injured in the last 3 years in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People and the government tolerate leisure activities with much more risk. If people cant be trusted to not open a door while a train is moving they certainly cant be trusted to mountain bike

Mountain biking is a(n extremely*) dangerous sport. It is not in any way comparable to the use of a mode of transport which to all intents and purposes is considered to be 100% safe and takes the line that it should be.

It is true that people are seeking out increasingly dangerous sports to counter the lack of risk and danger in day to day life, though.

* If you don't believe me, go and do an outdoor first aid course and ask around who's had/treated the worst injury from the hillwalkers, climbers and mountain bikers. The latter is a different world from the former two, though alpinism probably does beat it.

 

[Towers]

For motorcycling, yes

Motorcyclists are bound by law to obey speed limits, ride responsibly and of course wear a crash helmet in case it does go wrong. You’re also obliged to do it sober, which we know very well is not always applicable to heritage rail activities! What’s your equivalent mitigation for someone falling out of a train door?

 

[renegademaster]

Mountain biking is a(n extremely*) dangerous sport. It is not in any way comparable to the use of a mode of transport which to all intents and purposes is considered to be 100% safe and takes the line that it should be.

It is true that people are seeking out increasingly dangerous sports to counter the lack of risk and danger in day to day life, though.

* If you don't believe me, go and do an outdoor first aid course and ask around who's had/treated the worst injury from the hillwalkers, climbers and mountain bikers. The latter is a different world from the former two, though alpinism probably does beat it.

Railtours generally aren't used as a practical means of transport, the main appeal is travelling in older trains, which lower safety standards will be an expectation

Motorcyclists are bound by law to obey speed limits, ride responsibly and of course wear a crash helmet in case it does go wrong. You’re also obliged to do it sober, which we know very well is not always applicable to heritage rail activities! What’s your equivalent mitigation for someone falling out of a train door?

Theirs always more restrictions you can impose on motorcyclists which  will save lives , and the line where you think the practical becomes silly is purely political and their's plenty of risks not directly mitigated

 

[Dai Corner]

Railtours generally aren't used as a practical means of transport, the main appeal is travelling in older trains, which lower safety standards will be an expectation


Theirs always more restrictions you can impose on motorcyclists which  will save lives , and the line where you think the practical becomes silly is purely political and their's plenty of risks not directly mitigated

Railtours use the same tracks as service trains, just as motorcyclists use the same roads as other traffic.

Both are subject to rules which help protect other rail/road users as well as the participants.

 

[cactustwirly]

Mountain biking is a(n extremely*) dangerous sport. It is not in any way comparable to the use of a mode of transport which to all intents and purposes is considered to be 100% safe and takes the line that it should be.

It is true that people are seeking out increasingly dangerous sports to counter the lack of risk and danger in day to day life, though.

* If you don't believe me, go and do an outdoor first aid course and ask around who's had/treated the worst injury from the hillwalkers, climbers and mountain bikers. The latter is a different world from the former two, though alpinism probably does beat it.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's extremely dangerous. All sports carry risk of injury.
It's more technically demanding than road biking because of the jumps however.

I've done a few mountain bike trails and in no way did I feel like I was doing something dangerous, although I do have a decent mountain bike, it would be different if it was using a cheap Halfords bike

 

[renegademaster]

Railtours use the same tracks as service trains, just as motorcyclists use the same roads as other traffic.

Both are subject to rules which help protect other rail/road users as well as the participants.

Most of the justification around mandatory CDL is protecting bashers from themselves , not others. Lots of the current restrictions on motorcyclists  are premised around protecting themselves from themselves, but you could mandate leathers , save another few lives, but the government does not.

I did say I do accept the only real externality of door strikes but I do wonder how common of a problem that really is. (Especially when you consider someone ends up killed by getting dragged by automatic doors a few times year).

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the impact cleaning up a hypothetical casualty , but that's also an argument for closing any station with not stopping services, plus someone leaving a charter train at line speed is not something that actually happened since slam doors were taken off service trains.

 

[30907]

I did say I do accept the only real externality of door strikes but I do wonder how common of a problem that really is. (Especially when you consider someone ends up killed by getting dragged by automatic doors a few times year).

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...compared-to-non-slam-door.98989/#post-1760187
Post #19 quotes annual figures of around 20 deaths and 1000+ injuries for the slam-door era.

A quick Google found (for the UK) a death of a dog in 2022 and of a person in 1997. There are occasional US examples. Apologies for this unscientific quick rebuttal

Railtours generally aren't used as a practical means of transport, the main appeal is travelling in older trains, which lower safety standards will be an expectation.

Really? It has never occurred to me that a railtour would be in any significant way less safe than when the same vehicle was in a service train 20 years ago.

 

[renegademaster]

It has never occurred to me that a railtour would be in any significant way less safe than when the same vehicle was in a service train 20 years ago.

You knew exactly what I meant , lower than what is expected than current service trains . They are much safer than when they where a service train even with the same level of safety devices. (Which was then considered safe despite CDL technology basically being over a century old)


I don't think it's fair to compare statistics from the slam door era to current charter stock either. A puffer buffer tour is a bit different than a packed train in the 70s into Waterloo. What should be being compared is the amount of injures on LSL sets va WCRC sets.

 

[philthetube]

The only argument I accept from OCR is the risk of leaving a door open and striking someone on the platform. Which I think happened and was what spooked them.

Otherwise people who get into ancient rolling stock aren't get forced to get on and is ultimately their own problem.

The majority of passengers are going for a steam train ride over a viaduct, age of carriages is irrelevant to them and they are probably not aware of current of previous safety rules.

Lack of CDL is a risk which does not need to be taken.

 

[renegademaster]

The majority of passengers are going for a steam train ride over a viaduct, age of carriages is irrelevant to them and they are probably not aware of current of previous safety rules.

Lack of CDL is a risk which does not need to be taken.

Jacobite isn't the only thing WCRC do and if the only thing they cared about was the viaduct then they'd get the scotrail service

 

[Mountain Man]

It's been covered many times before. Many millions of people had been managing without central door locking for 150 years since railways began.

For the majority of time mankind has been on earth they managed without motor vehicles. Should we get rid of progress in that area too?

.... they don't need to go as far as mollycoddling the populus and wrapping them up in cotton wool.

That's unnecessarily emotive language.

It's CDL.

 

[M7R]

Whilst I appreciate that times have changed and the new regulations must be rigorously enforced, I can’t help but reflect on how many tens of thousands of people opened and closed doors, boarding and alighting from packed trains at hundreds of busy stations thousands of times every morning as people pushed and jostled their way to and from work each day.

I wonder why we can’t be trusted any more?

How many times have you been stuck behind people on trains where the doors are automatic but you have to press a button to open them, and they just stand there looking confused as they haven’t magically opened on their own? I’ve been stood there a fair few times, then at heritage railways the number of people who don’t have a clue about dropping the window to open the door via the external handle is again a large proportion… Now how many of these have any clues as to the dangers of opening the doors to early or when not in a platform etc?

Yes folks used to know but that’s 20-30 years ago, and the % of users who used trains like this day in day out etc and knew the risks is going down each day.

We used to have cars without seat belts and that was fine, everyone knew the risks and what to do etc…. Doesn’t mean we want to go backwards

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cars without seatbelts weren't fine. Lots of people died.

I do remain of the view that it's tragic that we didn't adopt the standard UIC folding slam door with door blocking above 5km/h. The doors on the XP64 sets looked similar but opened the other way.

 

[ainsworth74]

All the other operators either have or are well on the way to fitting their stock with CDL and it hasn't caused them any particular problems seemingly. So why should WCRC be given different preferential treatment to the rest of the heritage sector?

 

[anothertyke]

All the other operators either have or are well on the way to fitting their stock with CDL and it hasn't caused them any particular problems seemingly. So why should WCRC be given different preferential treatment to the rest of the heritage sector?

Do you have inside information about how much progress SRPS and Vintage have actually made?

 

[ainsworth74]

Do you have inside information about how much progress SRPS and Vintage have actually made?

Nope, but seeing as the ORR haven't seen the need to take action against them I can only presume that the ORR are satisfied with their plans and progress.

 

[renegademaster]

Nope, but seeing as the ORR haven't seen the need to take action against them I can only presume that the ORR are satisfied with their plans and progress.

ORR didn't put WCRC on the naughty step because of insufficient progress, West coast didn't want it at all

Open exit heritage busses are still tolerated. Would be very expensive if DVSA starter forcing routemasters to get fitted with automatic doors

 

[ainsworth74]

ORR didn't put WCRC on the naughty step because of insufficient progress, West coast didn't want it at all

Well yes, that is the problem and why they're in so much trouble (amongst other reasons such as not actually managing their proposed mitigations). But the point I was replying to was regarding the progress being made by other operators, I suspect that if they were not making progress at all and were just paying lip service they'd find themselves in similar straights to WCRC. Which suggests that the ORR are happy with the situation that pertains there as well. I make no comparison with WCRC who appear to have take the approach of just not doing anything at all until forced.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Personally I share the disappointment that we can no longer have open drop lights to enjoy the sound of a locomotive working hard but accept that this time has passed in the interest of safety.

Technically-speaking I don’t think there are any actual rules stating that you can’t run a train with the droplight windows open? Only that people are not permitted to lean out of them.

 

[paul1609]

Well yes, that is the problem and why they're in so much trouble (amongst other reasons such as not actually managing their proposed mitigations). But the point I was replying to was regarding the progress being made by other operators, I suspect that if they were not making progress at all and were just paying lip service they'd find themselves in similar straights to WCRC. Which suggests that the ORR are happy with the situation that pertains there as well. I make no comparison with WCRC who appear to have take the approach of just not doing anything at all until forced.

Arent the SRPS set of coaches just out of use? I dont think theyve run a railtour since March last year and currently have none planned.