We need to talk about Castlefield again.

[Dspatula]

The solution as much as a single project can be called a solution is to go ahead with the existing plan of 4 through platforms at Piccadilly and Oxford Road given that now that many trains are 5/6 cars it effectively drops Oxford road to two through platforms. Taking the platform reoccupation time from 4 minutes to 8 minutes will have a huge effect on reliability, at Piccadilly it means trains will no longer be forced to wait at Slade lane junction pushing delays on to other services and would prevent the issue I’ve seen a few times with trains being released in the wrong order and sitting on 14 until correct departure time with all the other trains stuck until its gone. Oxford Road has the same problem but it can’t be solved unless Deansgate closes at which point trains can be brought in as they arrive rather than having to sit on the wrong side of busy junctions because they have to wait for late trains that don’t stop at Deansgate. Timetable changes might reduce the issues but it won’t change the fact that Oxford Road and Piccadilly 13/14 are already no longer fit for purpose.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

If Carrington goes ahead, and the link to the WCML, then combined with reinstatement of Glazebrook viaduct (as the report notes may be financially quite an easy win) has the potential to remove Liverpool - Sheffield and beyond) services from Castlefield (disregarding the wails of why it is imperative that we have everywhere to everywhere services). Those services would be far more robust than squeezing through Castlefield and Slade Lane pinch points.

Victoria Station clearly needs rebuilding back to something like the capacity it used to have, and if the fate of large-scale US arena developments is any to go by, they have a finite life span measured in decades (Metrodome, Astrodome etc) which means that sooner or later they are obsolete. Admittedly it may be that land is cheaper in the US, but with the potential for another arena in Manchester, its star is not exactly in the ascendancy.

Other than that, or combined with that, send the Liverpool -Sheffield via Vic, Ashton Moss junction and a reinstated South-East curve into Guide Bridge (the alignment being protected when the Motorway was constructed) and via Hyde North, and keep Slade Lane and Castlefield free of a service that uses up capacity at both.

 

[Senex]

Other than that, or combined with that, send the Liverpool -Sheffield via Vic, Ashton Moss junction and a reinstated South-East curve into Guide Bridge (the alignment being protected when the Motorway was constructed) and via Hyde North, and keep Slade Lane and Castlefield free of a service that uses up capacity at both.

What does that do to the already very slow Manchester to Sheffield times? This is surely one of the services that really does have to stay on the Castlefield Corridor even if that does mean it has to stay using the disgusting South Junction platforms at Piccadilly.

 

[daodao]

If Carrington goes ahead, and the link to the WCML, then combined with reinstatement of Glazebrook viaduct (as the report notes may be financially quite an easy win) has the potential to remove Liverpool - Sheffield and beyond) services from Castlefield (disregarding the wails of why it is imperative that we have everywhere to everywhere services). Those services would be far more robust than squeezing through Castlefield and Slade Lane pinch points.

Victoria Station clearly needs rebuilding back to something like the capacity it used to have, and if the fate of large-scale US arena developments is any to go by, they have a finite life span measured in decades (Metrodome, Astrodome etc) which means that sooner or later they are obsolete. Admittedly it may be that land is cheaper in the US, but with the potential for another arena in Manchester, its star is not exactly in the ascendancy.

Other than that, or combined with that, send the Liverpool -Sheffield via Vic, Ashton Moss junction and a reinstated South-East curve into Guide Bridge (the alignment being protected when the Motorway was constructed) and via Hyde North, and keep Slade Lane and Castlefield free of a service that uses up capacity at both.

There is insufficient through passenger traffic between Liverpool and Sheffield to justify such trains bypassing Manchester to run via the ex-CLC Northenden line. Even in 1910, the heyday of the railways, there were few through trains from Liverpool Central via this route to Godley Junction or Chinley/Cheadle Heath to connect with or join GC/Midland expresses. Most services/connections were routed via Manchester Central.

A self-contained hourly Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Rd-Stockport-Sheffield service is not the main problem on the Castlefield line; to facilitate integration with other services, it would be best run as a one class Northern Connect route. It is the much longer distance services from North Wales, Scotland and North East England, currently run by TfW and TPE, that need to be removed from the Castlefield corridor. Diverting Liverpool-Sheffield services via Victoria means that they would have to take a slow roundabout route east of it.

 

[faltskog36abba]

There is insufficient through passenger traffic between Liverpool and Sheffield to justify such trains bypassing Manchester to run via the ex-CLC Northenden line. Even in 1910, the heyday of the railways, there were few through trains from Liverpool Central via this route to Godley Junction or Chinley/Cheadle Heath to connect with or join GC/Midland expresses. Most services/connections were routed via Manchester Central.

A self-contained hourly Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Rd-Stockport-Sheffield service is not the main problem on the Castlefield line; to facilitate integration with other services, it would be best run as a one class Northern Connect route. It is the much longer distance services from North Wales, Scotland and North East England, currently run by TfW and TPE, that need to be removed from the Castlefield corridor. Diverting Liverpool-Sheffield services via Victoria means that they would have to take a slow roundabout route east of it.

Could it work if Liverpool to Sheffield were diverted via the Philips park route to Ashburys ?.Its 8 minutes journey time from Victoria to Ashburys ,[1994 timings] Yes it will skip Stockport but a Cleethorpes service could fill the gap with a change at Piccadilly? Surely better than Airport bound passengers having to change with luggage.

 

[London Trains]

Could it work if Liverpool to Sheffield were diverted via the Philips park route to Ashburys ?

No, it will cross the path of every train out of the main shed at Piccadilly towards Stockport (3 AWC, 2 XC, 2 TPE (Airport to Cleethorpes reverses in and out so is 2 paths), 1 EMR, 1 TFW, countless Northern, all each way) to get from Oxford Road to Ashburys.

 

[JonathanH]

No, it will cross the path of every train out of the main shed at Piccadilly towards Stockport (3 AWC, 2 XC, 2 TPE (Airport to Cleethorpes reverses in and out so is 2 paths), 1 EMR, 1 TFW, countless Northern, all each way) to get from Oxford Road to Ashburys.

It wouldn't be going via Oxford Road. The OP is referring to the route between Victoria and Ashburys and then via Romiley.

 

[London Trains]

It wouldn't be going via Oxford Road. The OP is referring to the route between Victoria and Ashburys and then via Romiley.

I'm not particularly familiar with the line bit wouldnt that destroy journey times. Arguably Liverpool to Sheffield is one of the important links Castlefield provides. What isnt necessary is the countless links to the Airport from random Northern and TPE destinations.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not particularly familiar with the line bit wouldnt that destroy journey times. Arguably Liverpool to Sheffield is one of the important links Castlefield provides. What isnt necessary is the countless links to the Airport from random Northern and TPE destinations.

The point about airports is just your opinion. It isn't backed up by operational requirements or the evidence of actual journeys. The reality of Manchester Airport is that, in normal circumstances, it serves a wide catchment area.

 

[HSTEd]

Noone is ever going to come to an agreement about which trains shoudl be axed.

The best that can be done is try to live in this new world we have created where everyone wants trains to the Airport, and everyone wants high frequency trains.

Mid-cheshire to HS2 chord helps castlefield a little, since it means that trains going in the direction of Chester or Crewe can go to the Airport without going through Castlefield, but that is a limited solution.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

It wouldn't be going via Oxford Road. The OP is referring to the route between Victoria and Ashburys and then via Romiley.

Or the other route via Hyde which is similarly under-used. 1 passenger train per hour for a station 22 mins from central Manchester (freight paths also no doubt exist) ...

(I also understand that the section between Ashburys and Guide Bridge serves 2 tph to Glossop/Hadfield as well as Trans Pennine via Stalybridge).

Via Belle View is also possible but involves crossing all lines from Phillips Park at Ashburys.

 

[daodao]

Or the other route via Hyde which is similarly under-used. 1 passenger train per hour for a station 22 mins from central Manchester (freight paths also no doubt exist) ...

(I also understand that the section between Ashburys and Guide Bridge serves 2 tph to Glossop/Hadfield as well as Trans Pennine via Stalybridge).

Via Belle View is also possible but involves crossing all lines from Phillips Park at Ashburys.

There are 2 passenger tph via Hyde in normal times. However, these routes are roundabout, and there is no reason not to keep a 1 tph Liverpool-M/c Oxford Road-Stockport-Sheffield service. It is other long-distance trains that need to banished from the Castlefield line, from Scotland/Wales/NE England. Only the Northern trains franchise should be permitted to use it.

 

[Greybeard33]

The current Covid timetable seems to be operating punctually through the Castlefield corridor - although admittedly without crowds of pesky passengers gumming things up! Relative to the normal timetable, 3tph have been temporarily removed, namely the TPE Airport - Newcastle and the Northern Airport - Blackpool North and Airport to Liverpool via Warrington. Also the Southport - Alderley Edge has been cut back to reverse in Oxford Road P3, so 4tph less than normal through Piccadilly P13/14.

Given the predicted slow recovery of aviation post-Covid, it seems to me that a reduced service to the Airport might well now form part of the planned timetable recast to mitigate congestion through the corridor in the medium term.

There was an interesting quote in a Rail magazine story back in February:

[Network Rail’s Regional Managing Director for North West and Central Tim] Shoveller said that options to reduce congestion were currently being explored - including the rerouting of two hourly services from Manchester Airport into Piccadilly’s terminating platforms, where they can then reverse to serve destinations east of the Pennines.

This arrangement applied until May 2018, when they were diverted to run through Manchester Victoria and then onto Piccadilly via the Castlefield Corridor and the newly opened Ordsall Chord.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/castlefield-corridor-trade-off-plan-for-fewer-trains

 

[Mollman]

Could it work if Liverpool to Sheffield were diverted via the Philips park route to Ashburys ?.Its 8 minutes journey time from Victoria to Ashburys ,[1994 timings] Yes it will skip Stockport but a Cleethorpes service could fill the gap with a change at Piccadilly? Surely better than Airport bound passengers having to change with luggage.

I'm sure one of the original plans for the Northern Hub involved the Norwich - Liverpool service diverted via Victoria avoiding Stockport.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'm sure one of the original plans for the Northern Hub involved the Norwich - Liverpool service diverted via Victoria avoiding Stockport.

would it go to Huddersfield and then run to Sheffield that way??? why did anyone think that was a good idea

 

[Ianno87]

I'm sure one of the original plans for the Northern Hub involved the Norwich - Liverpool service diverted via Victoria avoiding Stockport.

would it go to Huddersfield and then run to Sheffield that way??? why did anyone think that was a good idea

No, would have been Sheffield non-stop via Marple/Ashburys/Philips Park, I think with some line speed improvements. Included Airport services around the chord too.

Search for the original 'Manchester Hub' (as it was then known) report.

I think Stockport would have retained a semi-fast Piccadilly shed-Sheffield/Dore South Curve service, with 4tph fast flighted along the Hope Valley.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://web.archive.org/web/20131228153432/http://www.northernwaytransportcompact.com/downloads/Delivery Gaps/Northern Hub/Manchester_Hub_Phase_2_-_Transport_Modelling_and_Benefit_Assessment.pdf

This was the test scenario for long distance services

This is the network rail report https://web.archive.org/web/2014102...orkrail.co.uk/6485_ManchesterHubRailStudy.pdf

 

[Ianno87]

View attachment 79208

https://web.archive.org/web/20131228153432/http://www.northernwaytransportcompact.com/downloads/Delivery Gaps/Northern Hub/Manchester_Hub_Phase_2_-_Transport_Modelling_and_Benefit_Assessment.pdf

This was the test scenario for long distance services

Interesting to note no Liverpool-Sheffield/Nottingham-Norwich....

Wonder what this forum would think about that....

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Interesting to note no Liverpool-Sheffield/Nottingham-Norwich....

Wonder what this forum would think about that....

I also noted there is a fourth London to Manchester service (3 via stoke and 1 via crewe)

seems to suggest:

1. 2tph: Chester to Hull
2. 2tph: Liverpool to York
3. 2tph: Blackpool to Norwich
4. 2tph: Lake District/Scotland to Manchester Airport
5. 2tph: Bradford to Crewe
6. 2tph: Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport
7. 1tph: Manchester to Clapham Junction (mentioned in the report p.115)
8. 3tph: London to Manchester via Stoke
9. 1tph: London to Manchester via Crewe

Remember this is a test scenario

 

[dewsnapsliding]

would it go to Huddersfield and then run to Sheffield that way??? why did anyone think that was a good idea

Because people were considering rationally and without emotion, that some services needed to change, and that certain services’ historic pathing might not be required, and that it would avoid conflicting train movements on the most congested part of the Manchester network I.e Oxford Road-Picadilly and Slade Lane-Stockport when there are alternatives available.

Does anyone have the comparable distance and timings from Salford Crescent to Chinley under non Covid timetabling.
No doubt linespeeds on Belle View/Hyde routes are lower than Picc to Stockport at least!

 

[Purple Orange]

I also noted there is a fourth London to Manchester service (3 via stoke and 1 via crewe)

seems to suggest:

1. 2tph: Chester to Hull
2. 2tph: Liverpool to York
3. 2tph: Blackpool to Norwich
4. 2tph: Lake District/Scotland to Manchester Airport
5. 2tph: Bradford to Crewe
6. 2tph: Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport
7. 1tph: Manchester to Clapham Junction (mentioned in the report p.115)
8. 3tph: London to Manchester via Stoke
9. 1tph: London to Manchester via Crewe

Remember this is a test scenario

Where would Birmingham trains fit in with that? And would York services not continue to Newcastle? Clapham Junction seems a bit mad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where would Birmingham trains fit in with that? And would York services not continue to Newcastle? Clapham Junction seems a bit mad.

Clapham Jn would (as the Southern WCML service presently does) offer excellent connectivity to the Southern and SWT networks without the faff of going via London.

 

[Dspatula]

Some incurably optimistic journey times in that report, I have to wonder how they were planning to achieve the likes of Buxton to Manchester all stops in 35 minutes.



Just as a rough comparison I’ve Frankensteined together some timetables for Sheffield to Liverpool via Manchester Victoria.

Sheffield to New Mills south jn 28 minutes

From New Mills south jn to Manchester Piccadilly with stop at Stockport 28.5 minutes

From New Mills south jn to Manchester Victoria non-stop 32.5 minutes



Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington 56 minutes

Manchester Victoria to Liverpool 38 minutes



Sheffield to Liverpool

Pic 112.5 minutes [1hour 53mins] 6 stops

Vic 98.5 minutes [1hour 39mins] 2 stops [additional stop between Manchester and Sheffield + around 75 seconds]

 

[furnessvale]

Some incurably optimistic journey times in that report, I have to wonder how they were planning to achieve the likes of Buxton to Manchester all stops in 35 minutes.

Things were a lot faster years ago with first generation DMUs and no defensive driving, but I can't remember them being that fast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Things were a lot faster years ago with first generation DMUs and no defensive driving, but I can't remember them being that fast.

No way would that be possible. With the wires you might well get it down to 45-50 minutes, though.

 

[furnessvale]

No way would that be possible. With the wires you might well get it down to 45-50 minutes, though.

True, but nothing in my post says any different.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Just as a rough comparison I’ve Frankensteined together some timetables for Sheffield to Liverpool via Manchester Victoria.

Sheffield to New Mills south jn 28 minutes

From New Mills south jn to Manchester Piccadilly with stop at Stockport 28.5 minutes

From New Mills south jn to Manchester Victoria non-stop 32.5 minutes



Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington 56 minutes

Manchester Victoria to Liverpool 38 minutes



Sheffield to Liverpool

Pic 112.5 minutes [1hour 53mins] 6 stops

Vic 98.5 minutes [1hour 39mins] 2 stops [additional stop between Manchester and Sheffield + around 75 seconds]

So (even with a bit of latitude on those timings) quicker via Victoria? And avoiding pinch points. The only people who miss out are those to and from Stockport on that specific service.

 

[Killingworth]

So (even with a bit of latitude on those timings) quicker via Victoria? And avoiding pinch points. The only people who miss out are those to and from Stockport on that specific service.

And half the passengers from Sheffield and the East specifically wanting Piccadilly who use that route as part of a half hourly service. There are quite a lot of season ticket holders going to the universities who use Oxford Road, from East and west.

 

[daodao]

No way would that be possible. With the wires you might well get it down to 45-50 minutes, though.

In 1910, the fastest (non-stop) commuter run from Buxton to London Road took 41 minutes (dep 0820, arr 0901) and the return was only a little slower at 43 minutes (dep 0542 pm, arr 0625 pm).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In 1910, the fastest (non-stop) commuter run from Buxton to London Road took 41 minutes (dep 0820, arr 0901) and the return was only a little slower at 43 minutes (dep 0542 pm, arr 0625 pm).

You'd get time off if it ran non-stop, but the suggestion was of a 30 minute all-stations service - no chance!