• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

West Coast Franchise speculation

Status
Not open for further replies.

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
28,980
Location
Redcar
Why not just give it to them till HS2 & be done with it? They seem to be doing a good job & passenger numbers are still climbing. Saves all that bidding grief & cost for let's face it what's a very short franchise. I
That's not a bad point. Even with no big changes/upgrades it is as you say ticking along reasonably well and seems popular with passengers. Not a part of the railway that really needs any faffing about with.

One of the main reasons for the refranchising is so that the next franchisee can lead on designing and then operating the HS2 service (it's not short it's supposed to run to 2031 with an optional extension to 2034!). It's why bidders are required to have a strong High Speed Rail experience on their team. I have to say as an approach I would suggest it has a lot of merit. We have a very complex piece of infrastructure to deliver alongside a significant change in the services on the busiest railway line in the UK and so I'd suggest it's far riskier to, at the same time, have a franchise change in the middle of that!

There's not much that makes sense about franchising and the way that the DfT go about it but this is one of the few things that does make sense.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Joined
25 Jan 2016
Messages
552
Location
Wolverhampton
This was formally confirmed, on the London Stock Exchange on Friday

Stagecoach Group plc is pleased to confirm that the Department for Transport has called an extension of up to one year to the West Coast rail franchise operated by the company's joint venture, Virgin Rail Group. The current West Coast franchise was due to end in March 2019 and can now continue for a period up to March 2020.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
This was formally confirmed, on the London Stock Exchange on Friday
It's almost becoming a joke by now... an 8 year extension (well, 7 and a third) means this is now longer than most first-generation rail franchises were in total!
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I'm happy with that. Who would've thought that back in 1997?
Well, that surely makes it the longest franchise, and in fact longest single legal rail operator - in franchising history, at 23 years.
 

Emblematic

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2013
Messages
659
No great surprise. DfT are having divert many of their resources to Brexit contingencies. Anything like this that can be conveniently kicked down the road with little effort, will be. South Eastern was already pushed back to next summer. We may see a delay to East Midlands as well, although that would make the promise of bimodes by 2022 even harder to achieve.
 

EE Andy b1

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
1,212
Location
CLC
Here's to another 23 years!! :D

Well i for one certainly hope Virgin keep the West Coast franchise / West Coast Partnership when the bid eventually comes in.
Probably one of the best TOCs for passengers and for staff (although some now disgruntled), not perfect by any means.
Certainly don't want anything to do with First group.

It's just a shame that no proper investment will be made until the WCP is awarded, but the government will be pretty happy with the returns there getting after extending the direct award again.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.

Let's see what 2019 brings!
 

driver_m

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2011
Messages
2,248
Suppose on my part this may be a cop out, but I'm very much on the fence with this decision . That is to say, with Failing Grayling at the helm, was an actual decision ever going to happen? How many years though now since we had the stability of a long term franchise without any talk of bids and such? Must be at least 8 years now .
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Just because Virgin Rail has been given the WCML for over 20 years shouldn't mean they automatically get the West Coast Partnership, sometimes a change is for the best.

If we must talk of them having a long franchise then there must be serious investment made and strict quality control checks otherwise they will do as little as possible for the life of the franchise.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,019
Location
Mold, Clwyd
VT is currently 51% Virgin, 49% Stagecoach.
The new bid is Stagecoach 50%, Virgin 30%, SNCF 20%.
It will not be the same company running the show, even if they win, and the competition is strong (First/Trenitalia, MTR/RENFE).
It will hardly be a "do nothing" franchise with HS2 coming down the track after 6 years leading to major service changes on all routes.
DfT/HS2 Ltd have a strong grip on the future train/service procurement, and the trains (all classic compatible) won't be chosen by the winner of the franchise bid.
Think IEP Mk2.
 

EE Andy b1

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
1,212
Location
CLC
VT is currently 51% Virgin, 49% Stagecoach.
The new bid is Stagecoach 50%, Virgin 30%, SNCF 20%.



Think IEP Mk2.


No the franchise will not be the same whoever wins the WCP and has been mentioned before by me it's not the franchise it was. I just hope it doesn't get messed up like so many other changed franchise, but with the DfT involved big time in HS2 I wouldn't like to say. Already talk of ruducing the speeds on HS2 to cut costs.


As for the Classic compatible trains, that's my biggest fear that DfT dictate the specification and we end up with an IEP Mk2 version with no thought at all to passengers and this world beater will be another expensive, forgettable lost travel experience.
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,447
Wonder if, given the extra 8 years they've ultimately acquired, it would have been feasible for Virgin to invest in 140mph sections for the WCML as they would have achieved a higher return on their investment.
 

driver_m

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2011
Messages
2,248
Not when you thought you were only getting 12-18 months at a time. Hindsight is great but it doesn't help with planning the future one bit.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,358
The Direct Awards have encouraged stagnation rather than incentivise bidders to innovaye for the sake of passengers.

Whilst the DfT may be wary of a judivial review there is something more fundamental than that. The potential players don't come to the party and instead stay at home or focus limited capital resources on less risky ventures with higher returns, as National Express chose to do.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,935
The Direct Awards have encouraged stagnation rather than incentivise bidders to innovate for the sake of passengers.
Whilst the DfT may be wary of a judicial review there is something more fundamental than that. The potential players don't come to the party and instead stay at home or focus limited capital resources on less risky ventures with higher returns, as National Express chose to do.
If it ain't broke don't fix it! Much as I dislike the Branson empire and (all that is associated with it) I would say that we are currently seeing the result of the thing that is anathema to the free-marketeer wheeler-deelers: Stability!
Management have learnt how their railway works, the staff seem to be up to an appropriate number - and on top of the job too. Also there are sufficiently few changes happening that the organisation can cope with them.
There are still things that need fixing - like the one train an hour northbound from Crewe on the WCML proper - but evolution is needed rather than revolution.
To my mind the best thing that could happen would be to keep the whole show together but bring it into Directly Operated Railways, or whatever the current fig-leaf is for a publicly-operated pretend franchise. That way there wouldn't be all the legal shenanigins over compensation due to HS2 construction, or airy-fairy guesses at financial performance while the railway is ripped up round them. We've had too many financial disasters over hospital management, hospital building, Prison-running and probation services, PFI school and other public sector building provision... the list is endless.
People who know what is needed bid appropriately (and lose.) Shysters and chancers put in a low bid (and damage the people who bid correctly but wasted their money doing it) then either completely bugger up the service trying to make their money or just throw in the towel and let someone else try to pick up the pieces - or worse, both.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Direct Awards are acceptable for short term use but not for long term use which is what has happened with Virgin Trains, TOCs cannot be expected to invest if they have no idea if they're going to lose said franchise once that direct award is up or not.

Hence why Virgin Trains has had very little encouragement to do much apart from offer free wifi to all.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,935
Direct Awards are acceptable for short term use but not for long term use which is what has happened with Virgin Trains, TOCs cannot be expected to invest if they have no idea if they're going to lose said franchise once that direct award is up or not.

Hence why Virgin Trains has had very little encouragement to do much apart from offer free wifi to all.
What should they do? Scrap the trains that are currently working well, or try to halve their maintenance costs? No thanks.
I wouldn't mind if they could magic up some more of them, to double the WCML trains north from Crewe, or lengthen some more of them, or suddenly find some more paths. With a trunk route that is ftb (full to bursting) the only thing I can think of is a fleet of shorter pendolinos designed to be compatible with Voyagers for splitting and joining en route to get more destinations served within the current departures from Euston. (really the existing destinations served more frequently.)
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,099
Location
North Wales
A variant of this could be an order of Pendolino-like stock to displace Voyagers from fully electrified routes. The released Voyagers could be used to extend more of the existing hourly Chester workings along the North Wales coast, for example.
 

sufian123

Member
Joined
1 May 2017
Messages
1,170
Location
Birmingham
A variant of this could be an order of Pendolino-like stock to displace Voyagers from fully electrified routes. The released Voyagers could be used to extend more of the existing hourly Chester workings along the North Wales coast, for example.

Production for them have stopped. Maybe newer Hitachi can do a bio mode for west coast with tilting. Even Alstom
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,019
Location
Mold, Clwyd
To my mind the best thing that could happen would be to keep the whole show together but bring it into Directly Operated Railways, or whatever the current fig-leaf is for a publicly-operated pretend franchise. That way there wouldn't be all the legal shenanigins over compensation due to HS2 construction, or airy-fairy guesses at financial performance while the railway is ripped up round them.

Not true.
LNER (for instance) is just another TOC which happens to be government-owned (like DRS, which has always been in the public sector).
They still have the same commercial regime as any other TOC, with NR access agreements, access charges and compensation when NR can't deliver, regulated by ORR.
Your business model only works for a totally monolithic operation which is unlikely to return.
If you have any independent operation at all (eg freight, open access), you need a level playing field and a set of rules for access and operation.
HS2 will bring another layer of complication to the WCML operation, as it is unlikely to be owned/managed by NR.
A 12-month direct award extension for VT is peanuts compared with what's to come.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
What should they do? Scrap the trains that are currently working well, or try to halve their maintenance costs? No thanks.
I wouldn't mind if they could magic up some more of them, to double the WCML trains north from Crewe, or lengthen some more of them, or suddenly find some more paths. With a trunk route that is ftb (full to bursting) the only thing I can think of is a fleet of shorter pendolinos designed to be compatible with Voyagers for splitting and joining en route to get more destinations served within the current departures from Euston. (really the existing destinations served more frequently.)

:rolleyes:

I said nothing about scrapping trains or try to halve their maintenance costs so please avoid making up stuff!

I said with short direct awards there is very little to encourage TOCs to invest more as they have no idea if the direct award will get extended or if a new franchise will start.

If you were in charge of Virgin Trains and you were running the business relying on direct awards, you would only do the minimum in terms of investment compared to if you had a longer franchise say 6 to 7 years instead of 18 months.

I doubt we will see any more Class 390s being produced as that ship has sailed and in any case it would wholly depend on the DfT agreeing to them placing a order in the first place.

The best thing is if the DfT agreed and reached a agreement for bi mode Class 80Xs which I'm sure can be engineered to take into account tilting technology and displace the Class 22x fleet to Cross Country, that's only one option though.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,935
The Direct Awards have encouraged stagnation rather than incentivise bidders to innovaye for the sake of passengers.

Hence why Virgin Trains has had very little encouragement to do much apart from offer free wifi to all.

:rolleyes:
I said nothing about scrapping trains or try to halve their maintenance costs so please avoid making up stuff!
I didn't say you did! I was pointing out that no matter how "innovative" you imagine a vibrant new franchise might be, there is very little scope to change anything.
At the worst we get a new set of new-to-the-railway movers and shakers who imagine that their superior intellects and imaginations can improve anything (who then fall flat on their faces after interfering with something they don't understand.)
Alternatively we get "hard-nosed businessmen" who are convinced that the existing railway people are just lazy and ineficient, and think they can can make a profit out of anything by cutting back on "waste" (who then move on hastily, having buggered up what they inherited - see Railtrack and Hatfield.)

How would you see a new WCML franchise dramatically improving what we have now? (or even making an incremental change, for that matter?)
A "bi mode Class 80Xs engineered to take into account tilting technology" is a new train that would need a new body shape, new bogies, new power transmission... Doubtful if it would appear within a 5-year franchise term.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,572
Whoever wins won't get tiliting bi-modes, they will try and make up for it with something that goes like the proverbial off a shovel.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
3,528
It seems a slightly strange period to be working out rolling stock for.
Come 2026 when HS2 opens (assuming it does so on time), the express services would be handled by the Classic Compatibles. There would then appear to be a surfeit of tilting EMUs for WCML services, including some currently handled by Voyagers completely under the wires. Do Virgin use tilt on any current sections that aren’t wired? That is, if you had enough Pendolinos to split services at the end of the wires could you then use a simpler (cheaper?) DMU for the rest?
So in some sense, the requirement is only there until 2026, and as noted before it would take several years to get new stock in place.
Whereas if the 2012 franchise had gone ahead, that would have given a 14 year stretch to work in new stock. The Pendolinos were also still being produced then, possibly more could have been added.
Could the Classic Compatibles be brought into service before HS2 running on the WCML?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,910
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Whoever wins won't get tiliting bi-modes, they will try and make up for it with something that goes like the proverbial off a shovel.

If you had something of that description you could well use it on the self-contained Euston-Brum diagrams and lose only a couple of minutes off those runs, which nobody would likely notice. Even Mk3 LHCS only lost a couple of minutes between Euston and MKC, and that was when the running time was 30 minutes, it now appears to have been sneaked to 31.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top