West Coast Franchise speculation

[Aictos]

I didn't say you did!

And of course this wasn't you...

What should they do? Scrap the trains that are currently working well, or try to halve their maintenance costs? No thanks

I was just pointing out that direct awards are acceptable to a degree ie a existing franchise which is having it's franchise extended by a direct award for up to no more then 12 months until the incoming franchise starts and that it's not ideal for the DfT to keep Virgin Trains sweet with countless Direct Awards one after the other as Virgin Trains doesn't know if they get another Direct Award or if a new TOC will take over hence why for Virgin Trains at the moment it's best for business to just keep ticking over with little investment until the start of the West Coast Partnership when the WCML can see some firm investment other then free wifi like Class 390 refurbishments etc.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 390 refurbishments

I'm really not sure they are necessary. Some people don't like the interior (because it's "dull"), but some very much do (because it's "cosy"), and they are neither worn nor tired, nor particularly old-fashioned.

I know they're not everyone's expensive cup of tea from the Shop, but they really are wearing well.

TBH, I think there's little worth changing on VTWC pre-HS2, other than maybe the excessive Anytime fares, the competence of the Euston barrier staff, or the hogging of Coach K seats by staff. It really does do the job quite well - I certainly wouldn't swap it for GWR or LNER. I'd be more than happy for them to continue to extend the franchise as many times as they like until HS2 really gets underway, and I suspect I am not the only one given the furore when the franchise nearly went to First's ridiculously-named "Horizon Trains".

 

[jyte]

As cool (and operationally useful) as they would be, I wonder how heavy a tilting bio-mode would be...fast pigs, like the Acela.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS2 Ltd is beginning to talk about things they might have to do to reduce the construction cost (or reduce the risk of cost overrun), and one of those things is to reduce the maximum speed from 360km/h or whatever they currently say they want.
One of the reasons for not considering tilt for the HS2 classic-compatible stock is that something like 300km/h is the maximum you can currently get out of a tilting design.
Maybe tilt will come back into consideration if the HS2 max speed gets reduced.
It still seems incongruous to go like the clappers as far as Crewe/Golborne and then dissipate much of the gain by having to run at 175km/h (110mph) north of there.
I don't see anybody rushing to build a new fast WCML alignment north of Golborne when the cost of the existing HS2a/b routes is so sensitive.

 

[driver_m]

If you had something of that description you could well use it on the self-contained Euston-Brum diagrams and lose only a couple of minutes off those runs, which nobody would likely notice. Even Mk3 LHCS only lost a couple of minutes between Euston and MKC, and that was when the running time was 30 minutes, it now appears to have been sneaked to 31.

No you couldn't. You would immediately damage both Liverpool and Chester service timings just doing that to the xx03 alone. Do it to a xx23 and you mess up the xx30 service when it eventually catches it up. You’d also mess up all the incoming train timings into Euston. I’ve been sat behind enough non tiliting units on both to know this is nonsense to say it’s unnoticeable. I wish people on here would stop proposing 110mph paths, they DO NOT help with the resilience of a line that is prone to delays with the existing few 110mph paths. The WCML has very little slack in it at the bottom end. 125mph running is the predominant speed and that is the standard what should be aimed at.

 

[pt_mad]

Wonder if, given the extra 8 years they've ultimately acquired, it would have been feasible for Virgin to invest in 140mph sections for the WCML as they would have achieved a higher return on their investment.

Afaik though you need in cab signalling above 125mph as a strict rule. And resignalling again isn't likely when they're building a new main high speed line anyway.

Network Rail upgrading straight sections further north on the WCML to 125 has been hinted at previously. That could work, and may provide long term benefits even after HS2. Obviously infrastructure upgrades are not the responsibility of VT though.

I'm really not sure they are necessary. Some people don't like the interior (because it's "dull"), but some very much do (because it's "cosy"), and they are neither worn nor tired, nor particularly old-fashioned.

I know they're not everyone's expensive cup of tea from the Shop, but they really are wearing well.

TBH, I think there's little worth changing on VTWC pre-HS2, other than maybe the excessive Anytime fares, the competence of the Euston barrier staff, or the hogging of Coach K seats by staff. It really does do the job quite well - I certainly wouldn't swap it for GWR or LNER. I'd be more than happy for them to continue to extend the franchise as many times as they like until HS2 really gets underway, and I suspect I am not the only one given the furore when the franchise nearly went to First's ridiculously-named "Horizon Trains".

Perhaps the rolling stock company could lead some sort of interior refurbishment. Even if it's very basic, LED (more efficient) lighting, perhaps remove the little spotlights and replace the yellow mottled centre ceiling panels. However seats seem adequate, granted dated in their shape, but they do the job, and fabrics can be replaced on an on going basis as and when each seat needs it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

remove the little spotlights

No, definitely don't. We don't want to turn what is a nice, cosy, homely interior into a dentist's chair like most other stock.

 

[pt_mad]

No, definitely don't. We don't want to turn what is a nice, cosy, homely interior into a dentist's chair like most other stock.

Maybe replaceme like for like with led then? I do think the whole look of the centre ceiling panel above the aisle looks really dated, like smokers mottled yellow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe replaceme like for like with led then? I do think the whole look of the centre ceiling panel above the aisle looks really dated, like smokers mottled yellow.

They are already LED - clearly decent enough ones that you haven't noticed

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Afaik though you need in cab signalling above 125mph as a strict rule. And resignalling again isn't likely when they're building a new main high speed line anyway.
Network Rail upgrading straight sections further north on the WCML to 125 has been hinted at previously. That could work, and may provide long term benefits even after HS2. Obviously infrastructure upgrades are not the responsibility of VT though.

Isn't ETCS in the frame for the resignalling at Crewe for HS2, extending further north in due course?
That would put full ETCS in the 390s (HS2 stock will already have it). Who knows, it might enable 390s to use HS2 at 225/250km/h.
Having said that, adding cost to HS2 seems out of the question at the moment, until they are on top of the Phase 1 costs.
It really does depend on what the ambitions are for the northern WCML in parallel with HS2 build.
And that probably depends on a shoot-out between West Coast and East Coast for the full high-speed route to Scotland.
Currently the default is a west coast route, so that Glasgow and Edinburgh are equally served, but I don't think we've heard the last of that discussion.

 

[The Planner]

It is being looked at, but Crewe is a NR renewal job, not funded by HS2 at all. It might be ETCS ready, but I would still put cash on lights on sticks.

 

[43096]

No, definitely don't. We don't want to turn what is a nice, cosy, homely interior into a dentist's chair like most other stock.

Drab, dull, badly laid out and uncomfortable, you mean.

One of the positives of the First bid was the plan to rip the interiors out and re-do them.

 

[pt_mad]

Drab, dull, badly laid out and uncomfortable, you mean.

One of the positives of the First bid was the plan to rip the interiors out and re-do them.

They are starting to look quite retro now though. Something frozen in time from the millennium.

 

[mmh]

Drab, dull, badly laid out and uncomfortable, you mean.

One of the positives of the First bid was the plan to rip the interiors out and re-do them.

They're none of those things though. The only real issues with their interiors are things dictated by the physical design of the train: the window pillar width, the lack of window side armrests (seats with a full window are fine as the ledge is a good height to use as an armrest), and the restricted luggage space under the very long pantograph wells.

No refurbishment can change any of those, and apart from them they are comfortable trains ageing remarkably well.

You've got a reasonable chance of being able to doze off on a long journey on a 390, and none on overly bright and stark trains.

 

[43096]

They're none of those things though. The only real issues with their interiors are things dictated by the physical design of the train: the window pillar width, the lack of window side armrests (seats with a full window are fine as the ledge is a good height to use as an armrest), and the restricted luggage space under the very long pantograph wells.

No refurbishment can change any of those, and apart from them they are comfortable trains ageing remarkably well.

You've got a reasonable chance of being able to doze off on a long journey on a 390, and none on overly bright and stark trains.

Couldn't disagree more. They ARE uncomfortable to me - I get a neckache after about 30mins of sitting in those seats that persists for a couple of days afterwards.

The internal lighting just accentuates the fact that the windows are too small, giving a dingy interior. The layout is just appalling - too much beige plastic and seats with no window view, while the luggage stacks are positioned with a window view. Last time I checked, luggage wasn't bothered about being able to look out.

 

[mmh]

Couldn't disagree more. They ARE uncomfortable to me - I get a neckache after about 30mins of sitting in those seats that persists for a couple of days afterwards.

The internal lighting just accentuates the fact that the windows are too small, giving a dingy interior. The layout is just appalling - too much beige plastic and seats with no window view, while the luggage stacks are positioned with a window view. Last time I checked, luggage wasn't bothered about being able to look out.

And as I said, no refurbishment is going to change that. The windows are where they are. Perhaps they should have been built with different spacing for second class, but they weren't. Nobody is going to respace the second class seats to match the windows.

Passengers like luggage racks in the middle of carriages, rightly or wrongly.

 

[edwin_m]

And as I said, no refurbishment is going to change that. The windows are where they are. Perhaps they should have been built with different spacing for second class, but they weren't. Nobody is going to respace the second class seats to match the windows.

Passengers like luggage racks in the middle of carriages, rightly or wrongly.

I think they could have adjusted things so each luggage stack was in front of one of the window pillars though. Then again the same applies to the 374s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And as I said, no refurbishment is going to change that. The windows are where they are. Perhaps they should have been built with different spacing for second class, but they weren't. Nobody is going to respace the second class seats to match the windows.

To give them some credit, it seems the norm these days for First Class to be misaligned in mainland Europe, not just second. That really stinks; for a premium class I want attention to detail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn't disagree more. They ARE uncomfortable to me - I get a neckache after about 30mins of sitting in those seats that persists for a couple of days afterwards.

I think you're the first person I've ever heard say that - indeed, the first person I think I've ever heard make a serious criticism of the actual seats, rather than their spacing which can be a bit tight (but still beats the Mk3s before it for me at least). I'd rather the venerable Grammer IC3000 or E3000, but it's really not a bad seat all things said, and is about the softest one on any modernish stock. I've sat in them all the way from MKC to Edinburgh via Brum, just over 5 hours, and never had a sore backside or back, unlike the rubbish in the Class 800, say.

The internal lighting just accentuates the fact that the windows are too small, giving a dingy interior

To me it's a cosy, relaxing interior with the deep colours giving it a quality feel. Unlike just about every other piece of UK rolling stock built since fluorescent lighting became a thing, they are not overlit and are much more like one might have at home.

The windows are quite small vertically, but they are positioned at the right level to look out of when seated, so the effect is to me less pronounced than you might think.

 

[Starmill]

I know they're not everyone's expensive cup of tea from the Shop, but they really are wearing well.

Given they have been extensively refurbished in recent years under the 'create amazing' programme this isn't a surprise. They've had lots of pieces of trim replaced or reconditioned and refitted, right down to all new sinks and toilet bowls for example. Most rolling stock of their age does not get a refit with completely new toilet, vanity unit and hand drier. Look at what we are still dealing with in the class 158s, original (totally useless) hand driers!

It's nicely kept, rather than hideously neglected as the GWR HSTs have been, and the East Coast interiors were.

Coincidentally, a lot of the extant class 390 interior fittings seem to be of rather better quality than the out-of-the-box class 800 ones.

 

[mmh]

Given they have been extensively refurbished in recent years under the 'create amazing' programme this isn't a surprise. They've had lots of pieces of trim replaced or reconditioned and refitted, right down to all new sinks and toilet bowls for example. Most rolling stock of their age does not get a refit with completely new toilet, vanity unit and hand drier. Look at what we are still dealing with in the class 158s, original (totally useless) hand driers!

It's nicely kept, rather than hideously neglected as the GWR HSTs have been, and the East Coast interiors were.

You mean they've been well maintained then. That's good. There's not a single thing about them that looks different to a passenger from the day they were delivered. Given that was nearly 20 years ago, and passengers still think they're fancy modern trains, that's pretty impressive.

 

[bramling]

I think you're the first person I've ever heard say that - indeed, the first person I think I've ever heard make a serious criticism of the actual seats, rather than their spacing which can be a bit tight (but still beats the Mk3s before it for me at least). I'd rather the venerable Grammer IC3000 or E3000, but it's really not a bad seat all things said, and is about the softest one on any modernish stock. I've sat in them all the way from MKC to Edinburgh via Brum, just over 5 hours, and never had a sore backside or back, unlike the rubbish in the Class 800, say.



To me it's a cosy, relaxing interior with the deep colours giving it a quality feel. Unlike just about every other piece of UK rolling stock built since fluorescent lighting became a thing, they are not overlit and are much more like one might have at home.

The windows are quite small vertically, but they are positioned at the right level to look out of when seated, so the effect is to me less pronounced than you might think.

Agree with all of this. The small height of the windows isn’t a problem at all, although the spacing between them is - but only if you’re in the wrong seat, which in practice shouldn’t be a major issue as apparently some people don’t mind or even prefer not having a view. And I like the restful interior, and find the seats quite decent even for a long journey.

 

[Mathew S]

You mean they've been well maintained then. That's good. There's not a single thing about them that looks different to a passenger from the day they were delivered. Given that was nearly 20 years ago, and passengers still think they're fancy modern trains, that's pretty impressive.

Agree with all of this. The small height of the windows isn’t a problem at all, although the spacing between them is - but only if you’re in the wrong seat, which in practice shouldn’t be a major issue as apparently some people don’t mind or even prefer not having a view. And I like the restful interior, and find the seats quite decent even for a long journey.

Totally agree. The 390s, before the recent repaint, were beginning to show their age. Now, well as others have said they are essentially still brand new trains - from a passenger point of view. If all companies maintained their trains to the same standard, the difference would be remarkable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean they've been well maintained then. That's good.

The same has been applied to Voyagers, and it's notable how much worse a state XC's are in with Arriva's "spend as little as possible" mentality applied to them. I guess it's just less visible because they haven't actually changed anything visible about the design bar switching to LED lighting.

This is how train maintenance should be, not let it get to rack and ruin (yes, you and your threadbare 350/1 seats, LM) then a big tarting up and colour change, then rinse and repeat.

 

[bikesntrains77]

When things go well, Virgin do a good job with pretty descent 1st class catering including plenty of complementary spirits etc. When things don't go well, they don't try and weasel out of paying compensation, like i've seen TPE, GWR do frequently.

I'm happy with this extension.

 

[boyaloud]

Surprised no one has ,mentioned the lack of plug/USB sockets on 390s. Why haven't these been retrofitted, like the tpe 185s? I think it's terrible that such a basic need in this era still hasn't Been addressed.

Does anyone else find the interiors really hot and stuffy 95% of the time? I've complained to Virgin a lot and nothing ever changes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised no one has ,mentioned the lack of plug/USB sockets on 390s. Why haven't these been retrofitted, like the tpe 185s? I think it's terrible that such a basic need in this era still hasn't Been addressed

They are present on the table seats. There isn't really room in a non-table seat (other than the small number of priority seats) to use a full-sized laptop, and if you have just a mobile or tablet a battery pack is a sensible item to have, so I don't find the omission that much of an issue.

Does anyone else find the interiors really hot and stuffy 95% of the time? I've complained to Virgin a lot and nothing ever changes.

Not really, no, or not unless the aircon is broken in that coach. But if you do, mention it to the guard - unlike almost all other stock, they can actually adjust it and it isn't a depot job.

 

[notlob.divad]

Surprised no one has ,mentioned the lack of plug/USB sockets on 390s. Why haven't these been retrofitted, like the tpe 185s? I think it's terrible that such a basic need in this era still hasn't Been addressed.

Does anyone else find the interiors really hot and stuffy 95% of the time? I've complained to Virgin a lot and nothing ever changes.

They are present on the table seats. There isn't really room in a non-table seat (other than the small number of priority seats) to use a full-sized laptop, and if you have just a mobile or tablet a battery pack is a sensible item to have, so I don't find the omission that much of an issue.

Do they still have the silly radio between the seats? fr me it would have made a lot of sense to rip that out and replace with USB ports.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they still have the silly radio between the seats? fr me it would have made a lot of sense to rip that out and replace with USB ports.

It's there but was disconnected when the wifi was installed, as it was put in the same racks. Whether it could be used for USB connections depends on whether it receives adequate power for that purpose, I suspect it doesn't.

I wouldn't call it silly, it served a purpose when they were built (and the Class 175s also had it). The MP3 player and smartphone might feel like they've been around forever, but post-date the units by at least 5 years. OK, you could have carried a personal CD or cassette player, but with the media that's rather bulkier. It would be a bit like calling the payphones the Class 158s had silly - they would serve no purpose now, but did back then.

 

[Chester1]

USB ports or sockets for every seat is now a basic requirement for intercity services. Battery packs are helpful but not enough if you have been out for too long, especially with a tablet. I doubt the cost of installing them on Pendolinos would be huge. Free wifi is the same, at intercity prices its a reasonable expectation. People can do without either but shouldn't have to on an intercity service.