West Highland why only 156's?

[rail-britain]

Personally I would have welcomed 2 and 3 car 156s as standard

We already have 2 car Class 156 units
During construction there was not much demand, based on the allocation, for 3 car Class 156 units
The only exception at the time was Inverness, for the Inverness - Aberdeen services
Haymarket then followed suit for the summer only WHL services

I had my doubts when the Strathclyde units appeared
Although they did cope once fully introduced
However as the years have gone past the demand has outstripped their capacity, and where 2 car units used to operate many are 4 car now

Overall the capacity remained the same or increased in the change from loco hauled services to sprinters
The private companies then filled any gaps, but as above they have not kept up with demand

 

[CarterUSM]

It seems that most people like the 156.... a lot. So, a question. Would the 156 have been as good had it had 1/3 - 2/3 doors as opposed to end-doors?

Hope you don't mind the market research.

It would have been quicker for loading on suburban stuff, but all in all i suppose it matters little.

 

[ian959]

It seems that most people like the 156.... a lot. So, a question. Would the 156 have been as good had it had 1/3 - 2/3 doors as opposed to end-doors?

Hope you don't mind the market research.

God no! I remember the last time I went on the Cardiff-Fishguard train. It was a Class 150 and those annoying 1/3 and 2/3 doors were rattling like crazy all the way. In comparison journeys on Class 156s are much more peaceful, especially on the Glasgow-Mallaig train. Okay dwell times are probably worse with the 156s but those end doors cannot be beat for keeping the passenger compartment relatively quiet.

 

[Anvil1984]

Hmm from a staff point of view I would have love to see a 150/156 cross with 1/3 and 2/3 doors. The 150s are brilliant for carrying plenty of people with the wide doorsways and also I like having my own area to do doors if the trains busy saves having to shove past people. However the 156s internal layout with the 2+2 seats and tables is a lot better (i know FGW and ATW have 150s in that fashion but Northern and LM don't) and could create space for more standing passengers. The current 156 layout with end doors is good for use on longer distance trains with less stops (Newcastle - Carlisle) but not so good when more stops are involved

 

[LE Greys]

It seems that most people like the 156.... a lot. So, a question. Would the 156 have been as good had it had 1/3 - 2/3 doors as opposed to end-doors?

Hope you don't mind the market research.

Doors at the end of the coach are much more effective for trains on longer-distance workings. They do make disabled access tricky, but it means that there are fewer draughts in the passenger saloon and a couple of extra seating rows. Modifying the arrangement to give better disabled access would probably be necessary for new stock. If we are after new local and rural units, then best stick with doors at the end.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Doors at the end of the coach are much more effective for trains on longer-distance workings. They do make disabled access tricky, but it means that there are fewer draughts in the passenger saloon and a couple of extra seating rows. Modifying the arrangement to give better disabled access would probably be necessary for new stock. If we are after new local and rural units, then best stick with doors at the end.

For a 23 metre vehicle, how about wide vestibules at 1/3 and the rear end of each vehicle. Would this offer a compromise and perhaps an optimum solution. On each vehicle there would be a large bay, a small bay and two wide vestibules.

One key issue is the way that units are utilised. Many start their journey in the country on rural services but either end or incorporate suburban duties in their diagram, morphing into commuter trains in the peaks. TPE through Leeds is a classic example of this. This makes it tricky to develop an optimum door configuration and seating layout to balance dwell time requirements in the peak and passenger comfort on the rural parts of the journey.

Ideally, we think that 23 metre vehicles, with sliding plug doors should be used for longer routes and 20 metre vehicles with sliding pocket doors for rural/suburban/commuter. Here is the first pass at our 20 metre "Pulsar" DMU seating layout, and comments are welcomed.

 

[MCR247]

Looks good, and presume LS is luggage space or something like that? If so, I'm not sure you'd need that much for a commuter/rural train. You'll obviously need some, but I suppose it depends on the type of route. Good window/seat lining up. Would a 2 car version be offered?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Looks good, and presume LS is luggage space or something like that? If so, I'm not sure you'd need that much for a commuter/rural train. You'll obviously need some, but I suppose it depends on the type of route. Good window/seat lining up. Would a 2 car version be offered?

Any formation is possible, from two to six cars, and obviously a gangway end version is also possible.

The luggage stacks can be substituted by more perch/tip-up seat modules if required, to provide more seating/standing space.

 

[Aictos]

oh look vestibule seating, such a rarity nowadays!

Yep, I'm starting to like it

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Any formation is possible, from two to six cars, and obviously a gangway end version is also possible.

The luggage stacks can be substituted by more perch/tip-up seat modules if required, to provide more seating/standing space.

This is probably a more appropriate number of luggage stacks.

The best thing about the modular system for interiors that we've adopted is that with the stood back draught screens, which provide extra standing space around door ways, it is possible to change out modules quickly and easily, without losing fixed seating capacity.

For example, in the summer time or at Christmas when people often travel with more luggage, an additional luggage module could be fitted in lieu of a perch/tip-up seat position.

 

[Aictos]

This is probably a more appropriate number of luggage stacks.

The best thing about the modular system for interiors that we've adopted is that with the stood back draught screens, which provide extra standing space around door ways, it is possible to change out modules quickly and easily, without losing fixed seating capacity.

For example, in the summer time or at Christmas when people often travel with more luggage, an additional luggage module could be fitted in lieu of a perch/tip-up seat position.

Indeed that's sound thinking and what I believe to be the right and only approach to future rolling stock for this country.

Any idea when the CSRE site is going to be back and running?

 

[tbtc]

The luggage stacks can be substituted by more perch/tip-up seat modules if required, to provide more seating/standing space.

Looks like very efficient use of space. Also using the luggage area as a "break" between the doors and seats should hopefully take away some of the criticism some people have of 2/3rds doors (being closer to seats, meaning you get the draft when the doors open).

I like the mix between "normal seating area" and plenty standing/perching room around the door for busier services.

By my reckoning we need around 500-600 new DMUs in the next decade (whilst some lines are going to be electrified, the Pacers/ Sprinters will be getting very tired). If only we could place an order for these...

Out of interest, has anyone ever tried building something with doors other than "at each and of the coach" or "one third/ two thirds along the coach"?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Indeed that's sound thinking and what I believe to be the right and only approach to future rolling stock for this country.

Any idea when the CSRE site is going to be back and running?

Thanks for the great feedback! We decided to take advantage of the Christmas / New Year lull to revamp the web site and I've given the guys until Monday 10th to complete the work. With any luck, it may be up and running again before that. Sorry for the inconvenience, but hopefully the improvements will be well worth the wait.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like very efficient use of space. Also using the luggage area as a "break" between the doors and seats should hopefully take away some of the criticism some people have of 2/3rds doors (being closer to seats, meaning you get the draft when the doors open).

I like the mix between "normal seating area" and plenty standing/perching room around the door for busier services.

By my reckoning we need around 500-600 new DMUs in the next decade (whilst some lines are going to be electrified, the Pacers/ Sprinters will be getting very tired). If only we could place an order for these...

Out of interest, has anyone ever tried building something with doors other than "at each and of the coach" or "one third/ two thirds along the coach"?

Again, many thanks for the compliments; very kind! Hopefully there will be some Pulsar units starting to be introduced in the UK from around the end of 2012 and once they start and get established, I hope that we can become the DMU supplier of choice, for the long awaited Pacer replacement programme. Whether replacements will be required for Sprinters as they become life expired remains to be seen; you never know, we might have sufficient lines with juice by then that EMUs are introduced instead, but Pulsar EMUs will also be available, so a standard body shell like the 80s 15x / 31x / 50x might be the order of the day, if we do our job right.

In main land Europe, where low UIC platforms are used, some units are built with one central set of doors on each vehicle. Due to stepping distances and platforms on curves in the UK, this wouldn't work without retractable steps being used.

We've been thinking about 1/3 and end doors for Pacesetter (our 23 metre product - and before anybody asks, yes we have changed the name and, yes it was following the suggestion of someone on here!!) and we're still playing with layouts and stepping distances.

 

[MCR247]

I think any new DMUs you are proposing should be easily to converted to EMUs. A covered up well and maybe if it was a DEMU would help. This I think should help sell these units.

 

[tbtc]

I hope that we can become the DMU supplier of choice, for the long awaited Pacer replacement programme

You seem to have anticipated a lot of the issues which have become pitfalls for other units, and I really hope the modular idea becomes "the norm". I hate to use managerial buzzwords, but "futureproof" would be one reaction to what you have here

Best case scenario is that we order one Pacer-replacement in bulk and get on with building them soon. Worst case would be to prevaricate, order lots of small classes to test things out (like the class 81/82/83/84 etc electrics) before finally plumping on one design.

This thread has really encouraged me, shown what *is* possible. Now all we need is the reality...

 

[Aictos]

You seem to have anticipated a lot of the issues which have become pitfalls for other units, and I really hope the modular idea becomes "the norm". I hate to use managerial buzzwords, but "futureproof" would be one reaction to what you have here

Best case scenario is that we order one Pacer-replacement in bulk and get on with building them soon. Worst case would be to prevaricate, order lots of small classes to test things out (like the class 81/82/83/84 etc electrics) before finally plumping on one design.

This thread has really encouraged me, shown what *is* possible. Now all we need is the reality...

Or use if you use Virgin and Midland Mainline as a another example, when Midland Mainline placed a order for a 220 type, they looked at what was wrong with the 220s/221s and the end result was the 222 all that aside I would like to see what the likes of East Midlands Trains and Northern could do with CSRE stock, who knows this might be one way of resolving some of the capacity issues.

 

[LE Greys]

Ideally, we think that 23 metre vehicles, with sliding plug doors should be used for longer routes and 20 metre vehicles with sliding pocket doors for rural/suburban/commuter. Here is the first pass at our 20 metre "Pulsar" DMU seating layout, and comments are welcomed.

Where's the end-gangway connection? You'll need one if you ever want to run the units in pairs on peak-time workings (which I would). Perhaps if you adapted the Pacemaker cab and bolted it on, it might work.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I think any new DMUs you are proposing should be easily to converted to EMUs. A covered up well and maybe if it was a DEMU would help. This I think should help sell these units.

Agreed. Pacesetter and Pulsar both use a standard body shell, which has a pantograph well designed in to the roof structure, so that on one vehicle in every DMU supplied, a well, for possible future use can be provided. This will be skinned over with a lightweight GRP moulded panel assembly.

We have thought long and hard about making the Pulsar DMU a DEMU. However, for the power range required (around 320 kW at rail per vehicle), it is very inefficient when compared to a diesel hydro-mechanical drive. We believe that the best solution, if and when conversion is required during the life cycle of the DMU is to remove the engine / transmission raft at the Cardan shaft flange and fit an electric traction module, supplying an under frame mounted traction motor, which will transmit its power through the existing drive train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where's the end-gangway connection? You'll need one if you ever want to run the units in pairs on peak-time workings (which I would). Perhaps if you adapted the Pacemaker cab and bolted it on, it might work.

Both Pulsar and Pacesetter use the same cab modules, which are interchangeable. Through gangway or no gangway cabs can be fitted to either without adaptation.

 

[Damien1986]

We already have 2 car Class 156 units
During construction there was not much demand, based on the allocation, for 3 car Class 156 units
The only exception at the time was Inverness, for the Inverness - Aberdeen services
Haymarket then followed suit for the summer only WHL services

I had my doubts when the Strathclyde units appeared
Although they did cope once fully introduced
However as the years have gone past the demand has outstripped their capacity, and where 2 car units used to operate many are 4 car now

Overall the capacity remained the same or increased in the change from loco hauled services to sprinters
The private companies then filled any gaps, but as above they have not kept up with demand

I take it the Inverness to Aberdeen line when operated by class 156 units had a trolley service?