West Lothian buses

[overthewater]

What do there do with the Heritage fleet? Let's be fair here you can hire them out, come on, really who wants to hire a dart or a trident? https://lothianmotorcoaches.com/vintage-hire/ While some of the more interesting stock isn't there.

Also all that was said was its under review, for all we know it could mean LCB goes ni for the kill.

 

[DunsBus]

what about the ones that arent from lathalmond? also all the motorcoaches levantes have been sold so they definitely have scaled back

There's no room at Lathalmond, so the heritage fleet can't return there if Lothian decide to disband it - the space created at Lathalmond by its departure has been filled.

I suspect too that we may also have seen the last of the running days.

 

[90019]

There's no room at Lathalmond, so the heritage fleet can't return there if Lothian decide to disband it - the space created at Lathalmond by its departure has been filled.

Shame we can't get rid of some of the scrap that's wasting space in the shed to free up a bit of space.

 

[ScotRail158725]

There's no room at Lathalmond, so the heritage fleet can't return there if Lothian decide to disband it - the space created at Lathalmond by its departure has been filled.

I suspect too that we may also have seen the last of the running days.

they could use other preservation places such as Bridgeton but its unlikely they’d use them

 

[Baileygirl]

Can't give names but I do know, from very good sources, that Lothian Country, Motorcoaches and the heritage fleet are all under review. I can't go too much further into it just now.[/QUOTE
Line of Lothian Motorcoaches at Edinburgh airport this morning on a rugby shuttle. Both coaches and deckers.

Line of Lothian Motorcoaches lined up at Edinburgh Airport this morning on a rugby shuttle. Both coaches and deckers. Is this a registered service?

 

[Jordan Adam]

they could use other preservation places such as Bridgeton but its unlikely they’d use them

I think most other places in Scotland are near full already though.

 

[DunsBus]

Also all that was said was its under review, for all we know it could mean LCB goes ni for the kill.

Possible but highly unlikely. LCB has struggled to break even, let alone make money, since it started in West Lothian. If they decided to go in for the kill, First could just as easily decide to do likewise in Edinburgh and that would damage Lothian big time.

I think the outcome here will be an agreement where LCB pulls out of West Lothian (with South Queensferry joining the main city network) and First withdrawing its Bright Bus tour.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I think the outcome here will be an agreement where LCB pulls out of West Lothian (with South Queensferry joining the main city network) and First withdrawing its Bright Bus tour.

The 43 should really be part of the city network anyway. Although i think we all know why it's not (cough cough extra revenue / higher fares, ripping off residents).

 

[Driver362]

The op was very thin on substance and fact and in my opinion worded to create the nonsense that's being posted here. And please don't tell me what Im thinking or how I'm taking it. It's obvious there are certain people would be only to happy to see any of the two coaches and ourselves go to the wall. The anti Lothian tone is unreal. As I've said previously op has no bother spouting statements like that with little regard for people's livelihood.

 

[scosutsut]

I think the outcome here will be an agreement where LCB pulls out of West Lothian (with South Queensferry joining the main city network) and First withdrawing its Bright Bus tour.

You mean collusion?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The op was very thin on substance and fact and in my opinion worded to create the nonsense that's being posted here. And please don't tell me what Im thinking or how I'm taking it. It's obvious there are certain people would be only to happy to see any of the two coaches and ourselves go to the wall. The anti Lothian tone is unreal. As I've said previously op has no bother spouting statements like that with little regard for people's livelihood.

To be fair, there’s been plenty of anti-First stuff on this thread too. That’s not a case of whataboutery but just that there are some very polarised views with supporters/haters of both firms.

Whilst speculation is perhaps understandable, it should be tempered with some consideration of those staff from either side of the divide who frequent this forum.

 

[buslad1988]

It’s kind of funny (although not to those who work there) and ridiculous that people seem to think LB will simply pack up and leave West Lothian... it’s not going to happen (and not that simple!).

The amount of time and investment they’ve put into the operation in fleet, premises etc. and are slowly beginning to see results they’ll be sticking it out for longer; albeit probably curtailing any future expansion and maybe trim back some of the biggest loss making routes.

Regardless of whoever is in charge at LB the trams are expanding and it’s happening fast. They need to explore new revenue streams to find other sources of income to prop up the existing business. It doesn’t matter how good they run the city network they’re still going to lose loads of money when the tram gets extended so tapping into West Lothian, coaches are ideal ways of finding new revenue. If they didn’t do this and just sat on their hands waiting for the trams to come along and plunge them into a loss then that’s commercial suicide.

It’ll all come out in the wash so they say!

 

[oldman]

To be fair, there’s been plenty of anti-First stuff on this thread too. That’s not a case of whataboutery but just that there are some very polarised views with supporters/haters of both firms.

To be fair, First fanboys round here have had 15 (at least) years of people saying 'why are First so rubbish, and Lothian so good', so it's understandable they might be a little triumphant when Lothian stumbles, as I think it did under Hall's leadership.

 

[overthewater]

It’s kind of funny (although not to those who work there) and ridiculous that people seem to think LB will simply pack up and leave West Lothian... it’s not going to happen (and not that simple!).

The amount of time and investment they’ve put into the operation in fleet, premises etc. and are slowly beginning to see results they’ll be sticking it out for longer; albeit probably curtailing any future expansion and maybe trim back some of the biggest loss making routes.

Regardless of whoever is in charge at LB the trams are expanding and it’s happening fast. They need to explore new revenue streams to find other sources of income to prop up the existing business. It doesn’t matter how good they run the city network they’re still going to lose loads of money when the tram gets extended so tapping into West Lothian, coaches are ideal ways of finding new revenue. If they didn’t do this and just sat on their hands waiting for the trams to come along and plunge them into a loss then that’s commercial suicide.

It’ll all come out in the wash so they say!

Tram may will be coming however, the current management ideas of generating more money leaves alot to desire. ( i could overlook the LMC) Personnel they have been idiots wasting all that money on looking for new gaps in the market way outside edinburgh, instead of looking under there noises. Edinburgh has plenty of potential and gaps to be filled, with out them having to travel further afield to find revenue. I say there good half dozen new routes and ideas within the city. As said there need to try and do something with Ingliston/bypass traffic to north Edinburgh, but not lets be sheep and copy other people instead of being a leader.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

some very polarised views with haters of both firms.

It's a BUS company, so unless people have shares, a financial insentment for a certain company to do well, WHY do people have such a problem with either company? I really don't understand the human race sometimes.

 

[overthewater]

It's a BUS company, so unless people have shares, a financial insentment for a certain company to do well, WHY do people have such a problem with either company? I really don't understand the human race sometimes.

They REALLY should be doing better, it's not hard...

 

[DunsBus]

The op was very thin on substance and fact and in my opinion worded to create the nonsense that's being posted here. And please don't tell me what Im thinking or how I'm taking it. It's obvious there are certain people would be only to happy to see any of the two coaches and ourselves go to the wall. The anti Lothian tone is unreal. As I've said previously op has no bother spouting statements like that with little regard for people's livelihood.

You mean collusion?

Not collusion, but more of a gentleman's agreement - these were commonplace in the early nineties as competing operators began to consolidate their networks, and indeed there was one between LRT and SMT at the tail end of 1994 when LRT pulled out of West Lothian and South Queensferry and SMT withdraw half of its City Sprinter network.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

They REALLY should be doing better, it's not hard...

I'm not talking about the companies themself (although I have already said my thoery on Lothian was to not pay as much towards the trams, so they lose on this venture, less to pay to a rival) but I am talking about people who "hate" First or "hate" Lothian. I don't understand their mentality of why they hate a business, which is only there to take people from point A to point B on a bus, so unless they have some financial insentive behind their hatrid of the rival company, why do they hate a bus company in the first place?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not talking about the companies themself (although I have already said my thoery on Lothian was to not pay as much towards the trams, so they lose on this venture, less to pay to a rival) but I am talking about people who "hate" First or "hate" Lothian. I don't understand their mentality of why they hate a business, which is only there to take people from point A to point B on a bus, so unless they have some financial insentive behind their hatrid of the rival company, why do they hate a bus company in the first place?

Indeed.

Or some sort of pathological mistrust or hatred for individuals that they've never met and probably never will meet, whether that be Andrew Jarvis, Richard Hall or other industry figures (Ray Stenning, Alex Hornby et al).

 

[DunsBus]

I'm not talking about the companies themself (although I have already said my thoery on Lothian was to not pay as much towards the trams, so they lose on this venture, less to pay to a rival) but I am talking about people who "hate" First or "hate" Lothian. I don't understand their mentality of why they hate a business, which is only there to take people from point A to point B on a bus, so unless they have some financial insentive behind their hatrid of the rival company, why do they hate a bus company in the first place?

Well said. I admire Lothian but not to the extent that I would want to see First West Lothian put out of business.

 

[Baileygirl]

Agree, although that being said Livingston will be getting additional vehicles to cover the extra work (they'll need at least 10 extra buses). So for all we know it could be some of those.

They are suposed to be getting 10 - 12 buses, a mix of Streetlights and Volvos from Leeds. Plus 8 open toppers for the new Brightbus tour starting in April.

 

[Jordan Adam]

They are suposed to be getting 10 - 12 buses, a mix of Streetlights and Volvos from Leeds. Plus 8 open toppers for the new Brightbus tour starting in April.

Thanks for that, Leeds have some 15 plate 47xxx Streetlites iirc, so hopefully a few of those come.

 

[overthewater]

What extra work? there no changes planned at First is there?

Edit, these extra ones for the JUNE Tender changes?

 

[Scott mac]

No extra work for first only The 2 tenders buses from down south due soon with the e400mmc finally moving to Glasgow with Glasgows route 5 due to get the ex Edinburgh ones

 

[Jordan Adam]

What extra work? there no changes planned at First is there?

Edit, these extra ones for the JUNE Tender changes?

Yes we're talking about the June changes.

No extra work for first only The 2 tenders buses from down south due soon with the e400mmc finally moving to Glasgow with Glasgows route 5 due to get the ex Edinburgh ones

I find it very highly unlikely that this is the case...

 

[scosutsut]

O
Not collusion, but more of a gentleman's agreement - these were commonplace in the early nineties as competing operators began to consolidate their networks, and indeed there was one between LRT and SMT at the tail end of 1994 when LRT pulled out of West Lothian and South Queensferry and SMT withdraw half of its City Sprinter network.

You do know that's pretty much the dictionary definition of collusion? Secret agreement for tit for tat withdrawal, to the detriment of customers!

That aside, I don't think First will withdraw, that's the thing, BBT doesn't owe them much as it's low cost and will be more than covering its way. Tenders show they are happy with running all that dead mileage.

 

[ScotRail158725]

You do know that's pretty much the dictionary definition of collusion? Secret agreement for tit for tat withdrawal, to the detriment of customers!

That aside, I don't think First will withdraw, that's the thing, BBT doesn't owe them much as it's low cost and will be more than covering its way. Tenders show they are happy with running all that dead mileage.

i agree with first staying, the 20, 63 & 68 shows they’re barging into edinburgh more and i dont think BBT is going anywhere soom

 

[Jordan Adam]

I think long term a gentleman's agreement would be ideal and likely will be the final outcome. I get that it sounds like i'm wishing for the "death of LC" but i'm not, i'm just being realistic. The current set up is not sustainable and sadly as Lothian are the ones who 'launched the attack' and were not the established operator it puts them at a disadvantage. It seems some people on here get far too emotional over it and can't just have a discussion without throwing the bias, hate card etc, if what i or others have said really bothers you that much then it's your issue not mine. It's a public forum, we're going to speculate, some of us are going to share our views and we're all hear to discuss - frankly if you don't agree with that then i don't know what you're doing on a discussion forum...

Again you see the classic case of this thread being turned in to a 'one side vs the other' when people start claiming that others hate certain managers or operators. Certainly i don't, i think there's a clear difference between hate, dislike and disagreement. I don't hate any person or any operator, however i may dislike and disagree with the way a well known figure runs a company. Certainly i've made it clear from day one that i didn't see the point in Lothian expanding through LC, it just seemed like a misjudged power grab and/or "Hall & Co running for world domination". It is quite funny though, if you got a group of Edinburgh bus enthusiasts round a table they'd likely all sing their praises about Lothian and then go on a long exhausting rant about how much they hate First, some of them to the point where they make up faux stories and/or don't even name the company, instead giving them disrespectful nicknames.

I live in Aberdeen and i think many don't actually realise First Aberdeen have suffered heavily due to FSE's strong position in West Lothian, the fleet has decreased by around 15 buses, routes drastically cut and investment slowed. For example Aberdeen hasn't had any funding for stuff as simple as route branding since 2017 and even currently they're having to wait until next month (when the next financial year starts) until they can order the vinyls to complete repaints done between August and last month. Even then it took around 5 months after the launch of the new Aberdeen livery for the second bus to be painted, 15 months later there's still only about 20 buses repainted and half of those have been done recently. So it's not as if everything has been rosie at First, it's just when it comes to West Lothian they've clearly managed to hold their ground and expand. So arguably they've been successful.

Had Lothian managed to outdo First i would be saying the exact opposite now and that First should retreat, however that has pretty clearly not been the case.... Anyway rant over!

 

[DunsBus]

I think long term a gentleman's agreement would be ideal and likely will be the final outcome. I get that it sounds like i'm wishing for the "death of LC" but i'm not, i'm just being realistic. The current set up is not sustainable and sadly as Lothian are the ones who 'launched the attack' and were not the established operator it puts them at a disadvantage. It seems some people on here get far too emotional over it and can't just have a discussion without throwing the bias, hate card etc, if what i or others have said really bothers you that much then it's your issue not mine. It's a public forum, we're going to speculate, some of us are going to share our views and we're all hear to discuss - frankly if you don't agree with that then i don't know what you're doing on a discussion forum...

Again you see the classic case of this thread being turned in to a 'one side vs the other' when people start claiming that others hate certain managers or operators. Certainly i don't, i think there's a clear difference between hate, dislike and disagreement. I don't hate any person or any operator, however i may dislike and disagree with the way a well known figure runs a company. Certainly i've made it clear from day one that i didn't see the point in Lothian expanding through LC, it just seemed like a misjudged power grab and/or "Hall & Co running for world domination". It is quite funny though, if you got a group of Edinburgh bus enthusiasts round a table they'd likely all sing their praises about Lothian and then go on a long exhausting rant about how much they hate First, some of them to the point where they make up faux stories and/or don't even name the company, instead giving them disrespectful nicknames.

I live in Aberdeen and i think many don't actually realise First Aberdeen have suffered heavily due to FSE's strong position in West Lothian, the fleet has decreased by around 15 buses, routes drastically cut and investment slowed. For example Aberdeen hasn't had any funding for stuff as simple as route branding since 2017 and even currently they're having to wait until next month (when the next financial year starts) until they can order the vinyls to complete repaints done between August and last month. Even then it took around 5 months after the launch of the new Aberdeen livery for the second bus to be painted, 15 months later there's still only about 20 buses repainted and half of those have been done recently. So it's not as if everything has been rosie at First, it's just when it comes to West Lothian they've clearly managed to hold their ground and expand. So arguably they've been successful.

Had Lothian managed to outdo First i would be saying the exact opposite now and that First should retreat, however that has pretty clearly not been the case.... Anyway rant over!

You could also add that when LCB launched, First's future in West Lothian looked far from certain. So, on paper, it looked like the ideal time for LCB to strike. However, First moved quickly to counter this invasion, leaving LCB playing catch up at every turn, and LCB also made the fatal mistake of believing that passengers would simply jump ship overnight. Having seen Lothian's last expansion into West Lothian, in the early nineties, end in defeat I did wonder what was to be gained from them going out there again when the outcome would probably be the same. I can only say this: "told you so!"

 

[A330Alex]

I find the fact First are reducing fares rather interesting, especially since it'll be quite significantly for certain tickets. Even if they're arguably in the better position in WL, I seriously doubt they're making big profits. Certainly not large enough to comfortably reduce fares by 30%. (unless of course, they were significantly ripping off travellers previously )

I'm sure part of it is to try and made the new Lothian MD say 'sod this' about LCB but if they don't, I'd be curious how sustainable certain quieter runs will be.

On a separate note, I think LCB and Lothian in general are rubbish at promoting their changes - it's usually just a bland post saying changes are happening. Kirkliston is getting a new (and only) night bus as well as an improvement N43 overall - why not post about that? Reliability should get better with many services getting extra running time - why not say this?! Especially since quite a few people are commenting about certain LCB services being late.