West Lothian buses

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's a public forum, we're going to speculate, some of us are going to share our views and we're all hear to discuss - frankly if you don't agree with that then i don't know what you're doing on a discussion forum...

Yes, but there are rules and responsibilities and, sadly, that's why we need moderators. Also, speculation is nothing without a firm basis....as we've seen too many times

You could also add that when LCB launched, First's future in West Lothian looked far from certain. So, on paper, it looked like the ideal time for LCB to strike. However, First moved quickly to counter this invasion, leaving LCB playing catch up at every turn, and LCB also made the fatal mistake of believing that passengers would simply jump ship overnight.

You're right to highlight this - the difference between the right opportunity and then the right execution. There were a number who said that First would simply exit, citing examples elsewhere (like Barnstaple) ignoring that things had changed in recent years. My view was that First would try to starve them out and that's what they're doing as well as looking to abstract trade from their tours business (which don't think anyone foresaw on this board).

 

[Baileygirl]

LCB in the past have used various methods of promoting their changes (the good parts) by radio, bus stop advertising, the local paper (West Lothian Courier often full page) and leaflet drop. The radio advert was for the X18 where they promoted new buses which were 6 years old. Must cost them a fortune.

 

[Jordan Adam]

You could also add that when LCB launched, First's future in West Lothian looked far from certain. So, on paper, it looked like the ideal time for LCB to strike. However, First moved quickly to counter this invasion, leaving LCB playing catch up at every turn, and LCB also made the fatal mistake of believing that passengers would simply jump ship overnight. Having seen Lothian's last expansion into West Lothian, in the early nineties, end in defeat I did wonder what was to be gained from them going out there again when the outcome would probably be the same. I can only say this: "told you so!"

I get what you're saying but i actually disagree, at the time (2017-18) First were seeing huge passenger growth in the WL region with a 5.5% increase on the 38, 7% increase on the 27/28 and a 21% increase on the 21/22! They had also not long invested in new vehicles for all the key routes. While not perfect FSE is in a far better position that it was 5-10 years ago, somewhat the whole point of selling Borders/East Lothian was to strengthen the rest of the opco and it worked.

Source regarding passenger growth - https://www.edinburghchamber.co.uk/...d-record-passenger-increases-on-key-services/

As has been said before if Lothian had done this in 2010-14 they may have had a chance, but they left it far too late.

I find the fact First are reducing fares rather interesting, especially since it'll be quite significantly for certain tickets. Even if they're arguably in the better position in WL, I seriously doubt they're making big profits. Certainly not large enough to comfortably reduce fares by 30%. (unless of course, they were significantly ripping off travellers previously )

First has seen a big drop in revenue, however BBT has managed to cover for the bulk of the losses. It's pretty clear the fares changes are a strategic move. How well it'll work is yet to be seen.

Yes, but there are rules and responsibilities and, sadly, that's why we need moderators. Also, speculation is nothing without a firm basis....as we've seen too many times

But that somewhat goes in to my point, speculation is going to happen regardless and moaning about it isn't going to stop it. I don't really see the big issue people make of it either to be honest. Forums like this would be dead if it weren't for the power of speculation!

 

[overthewater]

Jordan has hit the nail on the head, with the last post. LCB left it far to late, and did it badly, That is very annoying... I wonder what would have happened if LCB started in 2016 the same time as East coast come along.....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But that somewhat goes in to my point, speculation is going to happen regardless and moaning about it isn't going to stop it. I don't really see the big issue people make of it either to be honest. Forums like this would be dead if it weren't for the power of speculation!

I speculate that David Icke was right and that the Royal Family are 8 foot high lizards in 6 ft high human skin outfits..... Speculation needs a basis otherwise it's just noise

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First has seen a big drop in revenue, however BBT has managed to cover for the bulk of the losses.

Really?

 

[DunsBus]

Jordan has hit the nail on the head, with the last post. LCB left it far to late, and did it badly, That is very annoying... I wonder what would have happened if LCB started in 2016 the same time as East coast come along.....

Possibly the same as what's happened now, with First getting in there quickly to protect its market and leaving LCB to play catch up.

 

[gavin1985]

This has probably been asked in this forum before, what is stopping the Lothian ridacard covering all zones on the network, why does it only cover the Lothian country (city & cityWEST zones) and East Coast Buses zones A & B?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

This has probably been asked in this forum before, what is stopping the Lothian ridacard covering all zones on the network, why does it only cover the Lothian country (city & cityWEST zones) and East Coast Buses zones A & B?

ECB have their own “hidden” ridacards for Zone C and D which are hardly advertised anywhere, though these were brought out when the 104/113 were part of LCB, when ECB took over in 2016 and brought those services into their network, they incorporated the special ridacards, however they have yet to introduce a ridacard to cover both Zone E/F, and anytime someone asks about this on twitter they bring up the m-tickets..

It’s also interesting to note that LCB CityWest Zones fares also match ECB Zone C fares.. so it can cost you the same amount to travel from to Queensferry as it is to travel to Pencaitland, Macmerry and Longniddry, and yet the only difference is the city ridacard is valid to Queensferry yet not to the laters.

However the only other benefit you can get with your ridacard on these services is discounted fares, which again is hardly advertised well

For example if you use your ridacard from Edinburgh to Livingston it will only cost you £1.80

Edinburgh-Bathgate/Whitburn/Linlithgow £2.80

It also works on the ECB services, though only saves you £1 compared to LCB which saves you £2

Edinburgh - Pencaitland/Macmerry/Longniddry - £1.80

Edinburgh - Haddington/Gullene/Direlton
-£2.80

Edinburgh - North Berwick/East Linton
- £3.80

Edinburgh - Dunbar
-£4.80

 

[gavin1985]

ECB have their own “hidden” ridacards for Zone C and D which are hardly advertised anywhere, though these were brought out when the 104/113 were part of LCB, when ECB took over in 2016 and brought those services into their network, they incorporated the special ridacards, however they have yet to introduce a ridacard to cover both Zone E/F, and anytime someone asks about this on twitter they bring up the m-tickets..

It’s also interesting to note that LCB CityWest Zones fares also match ECB Zone C fares.. so it can cost you the same amount to travel from to Queensferry as it is to travel to Pencaitland, Macmerry and Longniddry, and yet the only difference is the city ridacard is valid to Queensferry yet not to the laters.

However the only other benefit you can get with your ridacard on these services is discounted fares, which again is hardly advertised well

It would certainly appear to be very badly advertised, across Lothian, Country and EC they only mention that the ridcard is valid within the zones mentioned above. Not that I would personally be travelling across those zones, I can see why there is the constant question of ridacard for all the zones.
As they are all under the Lothian umbrella it is odd why the ridacard does not cover all zones. If it can cover going to the airport why does it not cover further zones??

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Possibly the same as what's happened now, with First getting in there quickly to protect its market and leaving LCB to play catch up.

So the current state of play can be summarised as...

• First have won some Edinburgh city tenders from Lothian and Waverley
• Lothian, First, and others are awaiting West Lothian Council tenders to be released
• First have amended their route network to miss out Kirknewton and gain a competitive advantage
• Lothian have amended their route network to stop serving Fauldhouse and save resource
• First have cut their fares markedly
• First are introducing additional open top tours vehicles into Edinburgh
• Lothian's MD is leaving this month

That is what we know rather than hushed whispers, speculation or opinion?

 

[scotrail158713]

Edinburgh - Dunbar
-£4.80

The X7 goes non-stop from Zone A to D via the A1 so that one isn’t valid

 

[scosutsut]

So the current state of play can be summarised as...

• First have won some Edinburgh city tenders from Lothian and Waverley
• Lothian, First, and others are awaiting West Lothian Council tenders to be released
• First have amended their route network to miss out Kirknewton and gain a competitive advantage
• Lothian have amended their route network to stop serving Fauldhouse and save resource
• First have cut their fares markedly
• First are introducing additional open top tours vehicles into Edinburgh
• Lothian's MD is leaving this month

That is what we know rather than hushed whispers, speculation or opinion?

Pretty much.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The X7 goes non-stop from Zone A to D via the A1 so that one isn’t valid

Oh is it? I was sure I saw a twitter post awhile ago that said that it’s possible

 

[scotrail158713]

Oh is it? I was sure I saw a twitter post awhile ago that said that it’s possible

I think you’d have to go via Musselburgh - change to the 106 there where you can buy a through ticket for the X7 to Dunbar. Seems a bit too much effort for me just to save £1.

 

[Driver362]

And meanwhile in other parts of the FSE empire a first 1 zone day ticket to go up by 10p and a two zone 20p. Wonder if this helps pay for the reduction in fare in WL?. By putting up fares in the wee county?. I also have a question regarding the 20&63. Why did Lothian not even bother tendering for them? Wonder if they know something. Pure speculation though.

 

[scosutsut]

And meanwhile in other parts of the FSE empire a first 1 zone day ticket to go up by 10p and a two zone 20p. Wonder if this helps pay for the reduction in fare in WL?. By putting up fares in the wee county?. I also have a question regarding the 20&63. Why did Lothian not even bother tendering for them? Wonder if they know something. Pure speculation though.

LB bid for the 20 and lost it to First and didn't bid at all for the 63, according to the relevant thread.

 

[Jordan Adam]

And meanwhile in other parts of the FSE empire a first 1 zone day ticket to go up by 10p and a two zone 20p. Wonder if this helps pay for the reduction in fare in WL?. By putting up fares in the wee county?. I also have a question regarding the 20&63. Why did Lothian not even bother tendering for them? Wonder if they know something. Pure speculation though.

Pretty much, as i mentioned last night First's improvements in WL have to some extent come at the expense of Aberdeen and Stirling passengers, that said a 10p increase isn't that bad - not compared to other operators recent fare changes. No one really knows why they didn't bid for the 63, but still regardless it seems odd given that they're practically leaving the door open for First.

 

[A330Alex]

Considering they didn't bid at all, I can only assume the 63 just wasn't worth it financially - even with the council subsidy. If so, I doubt they'll be too sad about First operating it with the additional dead mileage likely required.

 

[overthewater]

Which is strange, because its was busy at time, I do believe there never bidded for the two route because it has LOWER fares than what is currently in place for LCB.... If you travel on no63 is £1.80 from Ratio Gyle, take No275 its £2.80. etc etc

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Considering they didn't bid at all, I can only assume the 63 just wasn't worth it financially - even with the council subsidy. If so, I doubt they'll be too sad about First operating it with the additional dead mileage likely required.

If anything Lothian have already got Queensferry covered with the 43 so not bidding for the 63 officially leaves Queensferry under the LCB citywest zone

Ratho on the other hand will be at a loss with the lack of Lothian service, I can at least see the residents adjusting to changing over at Ratho station to an X24/X25/X38

 

[lastbus]

Considering they didn't bid at all, I can only assume the 63 just wasn't worth it financially - even with the council subsidy. If so, I doubt they'll be too sad about First operating it with the additional dead mileage likely required.

First will have taken the dead mileage into account when bidding for the tender.

 

[Jordan Adam]

If anything Lothian have already got Queensferry covered with the 43 so not bidding for the 63 officially leaves Queensferry under the LCB citywest zone

Ratho on the other hand will be at a loss with the lack of Lothian service, I can at least see the residents adjusting to changing over at Ratho station to an X24/X25/X38

That's irrelevant though as the 43 and 63 catered for different markets. No sane person is going to catch a 43 then switch on to two or three different buses when there's a direct service going to where they need to be.

First will have taken the dead mileage into account when bidding for the tender.

To be fair the dead mileage isn't that much. 15 miles may sound lots if you live in a city, but i could give an almost endless list of examples up here where there's duties that have equally as much or more dead mileage. Also you have to consider that it's on faster roads, so the amount of time it required isn't really that much more than some dead runs in the city.

 

[CraigLockhart]

I wondered if there had been any thought to extending the 36 out to ratho given the loss of the 20. Accept it is already a long route so perhaps split the route in two. 36 ocean terminal to glenlockhart and a new service morningside to ratho. It could even mirror the 20 route instead of the existing one

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I wondered if there had been any thought to extending the 36 out to ratho given the loss of the 20. Accept it is already a long route so perhaps split the route in two. 36 ocean terminal to glenlockhart and a new service morningside to ratho. It could even mirror the 20 route instead of the existing one

If Lothian were going to extend a new service out that far it will probably be under the LCB belt if it’s not a council tender.

The only thought I could think of is if they re-route the X27 via Gogar Station road and Ransfield Road and into Ratho Main Street and then back out via Wilkieston Road to its normal route, that way Ratho would have a Lothian service and also a direct link to the city centre!

Or just hope that LCB picks up the 40/X40 if that goes up

 

[Jordan Adam]

I highly doubt Lothian will extend any services to Ratho.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I highly doubt Lothian will extend any services to Ratho.

I'm surprised they have a 30 minute service up there anyway given passenger numbers.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm surprised they have a 30 minute service up there anyway given passenger numbers.

It's a supported service so it makes sense but i'd agree, somewhere as small as Ratho doesn't really warrant a 30 minute frequency. Not unless the service extended to Livingston, which it doesn't.

 

[overthewater]

It's a supported service so it makes sense but i'd agree, somewhere as small as Ratho doesn't really warrant a 30 minute frequency. Not unless the service extended to Livingston, which it doesn't.

of course the 40 goes via the village

 

[Jordan Adam]

of course the 40 goes via the village

Indeed, albeit it serves a different area of Edinburgh. And is more really a St John's/ Livingston to RIE service. Whereas the 20 is a dedicated service to Ratho.