What could replace 465 and 466 networkers?

[221101 Voyager]

I was wondering what trains could replace SE's aging networkers?

I was thinking the most likely choice will be Bombardier followed by possibly Hitachi. Or a really unusual choice could be a Merseyrail-esque type unit from Stadler perhaps?

 

[Energy]

Hitachi
They work well but I'd rather support Bombardier's factory which is more permanent than Hitachi's build-it-to-win-the-IEP assembly plant. They would work fine, commonalty with the 395s isn't important, both fleets are large enough (and different enough) on their own. Not also the greatest of quality from Newton Aycliffe
Bombardier Aventra
It works when it works, software has been a problem on the Aventra for a while... Quality from Derby is typically worse than other manufacturers. Commonality with the 375s is nice, I can honestly see the 376s getting dumped though, shown by the lack of refurbishment or repaint.
Siemens
Very reliable units, just need to change the seats, has the benefit of supplementing the 707s. Will also soon have a factory in the UK which will score political points.
Stadler
Level boarding is a major plus but they aren't cheap.

Whoever it goes to somebody will be annoyed, despite still being built in the UK some politician was annoyed the EMR Intercity train order went to Hitachi instead of Bombardier.

 

[Aictos]

I would hope for a follow on order from Siemens for a second batch of Class 707s as 5 car sets which would work with the existing Class 707 fleet by expanding it (toilets can be retro fitted if needed), failing that a batch of 8 car Class 700s which would be used on both Metro and Mainline services in much the same way that the Thameslink fleet is used.

By going with the first option though, it standardises the fleet because going with Stadler etc it introduces yet another micro fleet.

However you have 30 Class 707s so running in pairs you only have 15 sets of 10 car trains plus the various infrastructure limits, I think that either a 8 car version of the Class 707 or its 8 car Class 700 sister type would be better, order around 80 sets and that would make major inroads in replacing the Networker fleet.

 

[Domh245]

They work well but I'd rather support Bombardier's factory which is more permanent than Hitachi's build-it-to-win-the-IEP assembly plant. They would work fine, commonalty with the 395s isn't important, both fleets are large enough (and different enough) on their own. Not also the greatest of quality from Newton Aycliffe

I'd say that with the establishment of the FSW facilities at Newton Aycliffe, it's pretty "permanent" - the only advantages that Derby has over it now are history and size.

 

[Energy]

I'd say that with the establishment of the FSW facilities at Newton Aycliffe, it's pretty "permanent" - the only advantages that Derby has over it now are history and size.

It is now more permanent with Hitachi having got enough orders to decide to make it a full factory, I would definitely rather see them built in the UK if it goes to Hitachi given AnsaldoBreda/Hitachi Rail Italy's quality...

 

[Domh245]

I would definitely rather see them built in the UK if it goes to Hitachi given AnsaldoBreda/Hitachi Rail Italy's quality...

I'd rather see them built in the UK for nationalistic reasons! I thought that by most accounts the Italian 802s are better screwed together than their English counterparts?

 

[Energy]

I'd rather see them built in the UK for nationalistic reasons! I thought that by most accounts the Italian 802s are better screwed together than their English counterparts?

The Italian 802s apparently have a few loose panels and are generally low quality, that plant does have a reputation... The English ones aren't the best of quality though.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Hitachi
They work well but I'd rather support Bombardier's factory which is more permanent than Hitachi's build-it-to-win-the-IEP assembly plant. They would work fine, commonalty with the 395s isn't important, both fleets are large enough (and different enough) on their own. Not also the greatest of quality from Newton Aycliffe
Bombardier Aventra
It works when it works, software has been a problem on the Aventra for a while... Quality from Derby is typically worse than other manufacturers. Commonality with the 375s is nice, I can honestly see the 376s getting dumped though, shown by the lack of refurbishment or repaint.
Siemens
Very reliable units, just need to change the seats, has the benefit of supplementing the 707s. Will also soon have a factory in the UK which will score political points.
Stadler
Level boarding is a major plus but they aren't cheap.

Whoever it goes to somebody will be annoyed, despite still being built in the UK some politician was annoyed the EMR Intercity train order went to Hitachi instead of Bombardier.

If I were choosing to buy from one of these manufacturers I'd definitely choose Stadler. Having been on 745/755s and being impressed and the 777s seem nice too as well as their Tyne and Wear metro fleet.

Stadler could be the best option if the money is available and if they have normal door alignments eg: two doors per carriage.

Hitachi is overall the worst as their build quality is certainly questionable and their units are pretty ugly too.

Bombardier are alright if their wasn't the constant software issues.

Siemens are pretty good apart from the awful seats and their ultra clinical interiors.

 

[Energy]

Hitachi is overall the worst as their build quality is certainly questionable and their units are pretty ugly too.

Hitachis are generally pretty reliable, even if it may need some better screwing together.

 

[py_megapixel]

Hitachi is overall the worst as their build quality is certainly questionable and their units are pretty ugly too.

SE management aren't going to care in the slightest whether their new trains "are pretty ugly". I don't think there's a huge amount wrong with Hitachi's build quality either, though they do ride incredibly poorly, as has been done to death on these very forums.

Siemens are pretty good apart from the awful seats and their ultra clinical interiors.

I agree.

To me, the obvious choice seems to be more Desiro Cities, but specifying decent quality interior design for a change, rather than the bare minimum.
The main other changes I would make would be decent sized passenger information displays, and possibly end gangways if Siemens can offer it.

 

[Energy]

and possibly end gangways if Siemens can offer it.

They do. I think it really depends on length, if they are ordered as 6 car units I don't think end gangways are necessary on these journeys.

 

[221101 Voyager]

SE management aren't going to care in the slightest whether their new trains "are pretty ugly". I don't think there's a huge amount wrong with Hitachi's build quality either, though they do ride incredibly poorly, as has been done to death on these very forums.


I agree.

To me, the obvious choice seems to be more Desiro Cities, but specifying decent quality interior design for a change, rather than the bare minimum.
The main other changes I would make would be decent sized passenger information displays, and possibly end gangways if Siemens can offer it.

If they order more Desiro Cities with the above improvements you mention they would also be a great option.

If a Desiro City was specified properly I could see them being a worthy successor to the Networker, but as I say earlier Stadler could also be a good choice.

I don't think they will order Hitachi as no one else has ordered any Hitachi AT100s so seems unlikely.

Out of a well specced Desiro, a Stadler Metro and a well specced Aventra I'm not 100% on what order I would rank them.

My ranking would be this.

1 - Stadler if the price was right also a big gold star for disability access.
2 - Siemens if specced with a nicer interior as it's otherwise a solid unit overall.
3 - Bombardier if specced with a decent interior and software issues fixed.
4 - Hitachi if none of the above had been chosen by Southeastern.

 

[Energy]

2 - Siemens if specced with a nicer interior as it's otherwise a solid unit overall.

You can stick whatever seat you would like in, the rest of the interior is fine although I would like a thin carpet instead of the plasticy floor.

 

[221101 Voyager]

You can stick whatever seat you would like in, the rest of the interior is fine although I would like a thin carpet instead of the plasticy floor.

What seats would you choose?

I'd consider Fisa Lean perhaps?

 

[Energy]

What seats would you choose?

I'd consider Fisa Lean perhaps?

FISA Lean has a thick back which would reduce capacity. Probably Fainsa Sophia with a better cushion.

 

[221101 Voyager]

FISA Lean has a thick back which would reduce capacity. Probably Fainsa Sophia with a better cushion.

Sophia with a better cushion and armrests could be the best option overall. I've tried 700s but not tried a sophia with better padding so can't comment on how good or bad they are.

 

[Energy]

Sophia with a better cushion and armrests could be the best option overall. I've tried 700s but not tried a sophia with better padding so can't comment on how good or bad they are.

Its the best solution for comfort but not great for capacity unless FISA can make a thinner back.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Its the best solution for comfort but not great for capacity unless FISA can make a thinner back.

A good fainsa sophia or a thin backed fisa LEAN could be the best options.

I wonder what's cheaper, let's face it, only the cheapest stuff is specced these days isn't it?...

 

[Energy]

A good fainsa sophia or a thin backed fisa LEAN could be the best options.

I wonder what's cheaper, let's face it, only the cheapest stuff is specced these days isn't it?...

Yeah, these trains do short distances so a good fainsa sophia would be the best balance between comfort and capacity.

 

[greyman42]

No one has mentioned CAF?

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I'd go for 700s but with seats from whatever company built the seats for the C2C 357s because they are the most comfortable 3+2 seats I've experienced.

 

[Energy]

No one has mentioned CAF?

CAF do well in the UK when it needs to be cheaper or diesel, SE is neither.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd go for 700s but with seats from whatever company built the seats for the C2C 357s because they are the most comfortable 3+2 seats I've experienced.

Probably not available any more. I suspect that something with an interior like a 717 is the most appropriate and most likely.

 

[Non Multi]

I'd go for 700s but with seats from whatever company built the seats for the C2C 357s because they are the most comfortable 3+2 seats I've experienced.

I think they are Chapman seats. Fainsa Comrail is the DfT's current commuter seat of choice. Cheap and compliant (with the regulations, not posteriors).

 

[Aictos]

Probably not available any more. I suspect that something with an interior like a 717 is the most appropriate and most likely.

Personally I think a 8 car Class 700 formation with the Class 717 interior in standard class and the Class 700 interior in 1st Class would be onto a winner as one Class 700 could replace a pair of Class 465s meaning you would need less for the same capacity.

Plus being 8 car formations, they could interwork Victoria, Charing Cross and Cannon Street services whereas being 10 or even 12 car formations you have infrastructure limitations on some routes.

I think the cab though would be a full width one which does rule out multiple working but I think that a Class 700 type would be equally at home on the Metro services and on the Mainline services as and when required which apart from being a more reliable and a upgrade to passengers, also means easier to manage plus they could work from all three SE London terminuses and not be restricted to specific routes.

They probably settle for more 5 car Class 707s but I think to get around the infrastructure limits that exist, a 8 car type would be the best thing to do.

 

[Kite159]

Personally I think a 8 car Class 700 formation with the Class 717 interior in standard class and the Class 700 interior in 1st Class would be onto a winner as one Class 700 could replace a pair of Class 465s meaning you would need less for the same capacity.

Plus being 8 car formations, they could interwork Victoria, Charing Cross and Cannon Street services whereas being 10 or even 12 car formations you have infrastructure limitations on some routes.

I think the cab though would be a full width one which does rule out multiple working but I think that a Class 700 type would be equally at home on the Metro services and on the Mainline services as and when required which apart from being a more reliable and a upgrade to passengers, also means easier to manage plus they could work from all three SE London terminuses and not be restricted to specific routes.

They probably settle for more 5 car Class 707s but I think to get around the infrastructure limits that exist, a 8 car type would be the best thing to do.

Better to have a Thameslink style mix of fixed formation 8 & 12 coach units. The 8 coach units to work primarily out of Victoria.

 

[Aictos]

Better to have a Thameslink style mix of fixed formation 8 & 12 coach units. The 8 coach units to work primarily out of Victoria.

But how many in total and how many of each would be needed to replace the Networkers bearing in mind a single Class 700/1 would be able to replace three Class 465s meaning a smaller fleet all together with lower operating costs as a result.

Remember that Great Northern did operate 44 Class 313s which were replaced with 25 Class 717s so there is history with TOCs doing it.

 

[londonteacher]

As the DfT now run the franchises, the seats in any train will undoubtedly be the same/similar as in other DfT specified trains.

To be honest I would be surprised if new units are purchased due to the lack of funds when the current stock is working well and just needs a full refurbishment.

 

[Wolfie]

I was wondering what trains could replace SE's aging networkers?

I was thinking the most likely choice will be Bombardier followed by possibly Hitachi. Or a really unusual choice could be a Merseyrail-esque type unit from Stadler perhaps?

So you rule out CAF which is doing assembly in Wales?

 

[221101 Voyager]

So you rule out CAF which is doing assembly in Wales?

I’ve ruled out CAF as I think their trains are very poor.

Really poor ride quality and their trains aren’t nicely designed either.

Plus they don’t have much UK EMU experience either and they have never built 3rd rail units for the uk either.