What could replace 465 and 466 networkers?

[221101 Voyager]

Nearly all the stations on the lines out of Charing Cross/Cannon Street have 12 car platforms, Woolwich Dockyard is one exception where SDO would be needed

On that basis, 6*20m units might be a better solution, avoiding the overkill of empty 12 car 700s when quiet, but enabling 12 car operations when needed. Would this fit into Charing Cross's restricted platforms?

I think 6x20m could work if Cannon Street can accomodate two of them, which I don't think all platforms could.

Maybe have a mixture of 4x20m, 5x20m & 6x20m that way you could have a 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 coach train depending on how many of each formation is manufactured.

 

[D365]

Maybe have a mixture of 4x20m, 5x20m & 6x20m that way you could have a 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 coach train depending on how many of each formation is manufactured.

Do you really hate train planners? You’re giving them an nightmare scenario.

 

[greyman42]

They are pretty scruffy and I've heard there has been reliability issues. I don't know the specific mileage per failure of the units but people on here have said their relaibility is a bit iffy.

I believe it is the units that were built at Metro Cam that have the reliability issues.

 

[Anonymous10]

stadler flirt? similar to tfw but with it being a solely emu im pretty sure they have a emu version of it

 

[Energy]

stadler flirt? similar to tfw but with it being a solely emu im pretty sure they have a emu version of it

They do... the whole thing is an EMU, the diesel ones just have the generator thing to feed the motors.

 

[Aictos]

I think 6x20m could work if Charing Cross can accomodate two of them, which I don't think all platforms could.

Maybe have a mixture of 4x20m, 5x20m & 6x20m that way you could have a 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 coach train depending on how many of each formation is manufactured.

That would be one of the worse ideas to come out of DfT so far and I think it's awful because:

1. The aim of the Networker replacement programme if and when it happens should introduce a single fleet with no more then two variations in length eg the Thameslink Class 700 fleet are either 8 or 12 cars.

2. By standardising on just two lengths, it makes it easier to diagram services plus maintaining the fleet then becomes more effective as you just have two lengths instead of 8 possible formations.

3. Fixed Formations of 8 and 12 cars would mean less waste of cabs as you only need two and not 6 for example for a 12 car which means more room for seating to be considered.

4. By following Thameslink example, you would have a increase of seating plus the dwell times at stations would decrease meaning faster journey times.

 

[Anonymous10]

They do... the whole thing is an EMU, the diesel ones just have the generator thing to feed the motors.

then i think a stadler flirt would be good sure they are not cheap but they are very nice trains

 

[221101 Voyager]

Do you really hate train planners? You’re giving them an nightmare scenario.

True hasn’t considered that.

I believe it is the units that were built at Metro Cam that have the reliability issues.

Ah ok right. Do they have different motors to the BREL ones then?

That would be one of the worse ideas to come out of DfT so far and I think it's awful because:

1. The aim of the Networker replacement programme if and when it happens should introduce a single fleet with no more then two variations in length eg the Thameslink Class 700 fleet are either 8 or 12 cars.

2. By standardising on just two lengths, it makes it easier to diagram services plus maintaining the fleet then becomes more effective as you just have two lengths instead of 8 possible formations.

3. Fixed Formations of 8 and 12 cars would mean less waste of cabs as you only need two and not 6 for example for a 12 car which means more room for seating to be considered.

4. By following Thameslink example, you would have a increase of seating plus the dwell times at stations would decrease meaning faster journey times.

1 & 2 Fair enough on fixed formations good point there.

3 - True that.

4 - Also very true.

In the case of those points I change my formation proposal to a mix of 4x20m and 8x20m. I’m not sure there would be enough demand in the future for a fixed 12 car unit.

Also the reason I suggest 4 car formations is that some routes may not always be busy enough to require a fixed 8 car formation for example.

 

[waverley47]

In the case of those points I change my formation proposal to a mix of 4x20m and 8x20m. I’m not sure there would be enough demand in the future for a fixed 12 car unit.

Also the reason I suggest 4 car formations is that some routes may not always be busy enough to require a fixed 8 car formation for example.

This is the wrong way round unfortunately. There aren't many routes in the south east that could even fit commuters onto a four car train, let alone an eight car in the peaks. Covid aside, the number of people using trains across the SE network is huge. The numbers may not return to full commuting, but the SE network is busy all the time. You'll still need the capacity on shopping weekends and weekdays throughout the day.

If you buy uniform 12 car trains, the marginal cost of running that vice a mixed fleet of different train lengths is negligible. In fact, it's actually cheaper to run a fixed formation 12 car than three 4 car trains put together, because there is less wastage in cabs, less maintenance ect, with the caveat of having enough space to put them.

It saves staff to split and join trains, every train is walk through, every train has the same doors in the same place ect. The few times you don't need the capacity are offset by the majority of time when that extra space helps.

It's also cheaper to buy one set of trains and use them for everything, as every train is therefore interchangeable. No messing around with diagrams or different units splitting/joining throughout the day.

 

[Energy]

This is the wrong way round unfortunately. There aren't many routes in the south east that could even fit commuters onto a four car train, let alone an eight car in the peaks. Covid aside, the number of people using trains across the SE network is huge. The numbers may not return to full commuting, but the SE network is busy all the time. You'll still need the capacity on shopping weekends and weekdays throughout the day.

If you buy uniform 12 car trains, the marginal cost of running that vice a mixed fleet of different train lengths is negligible. In fact, it's actually cheaper to run a fixed formation 12 car than three 4 car trains put together, because there is less wastage in cabs, less maintenance ect, with the caveat of having enough space to put them.

It saves staff to split and join trains, every train is walk through, every train has the same doors in the same place ect. The few times you don't need the capacity are offset by the majority of time when that extra space helps.

It's also cheaper to buy one set of trains and use them for everything, as every train is therefore interchangeable. No messing around with diagrams or different units splitting/joining throughout the day.

I would go for 2x6 personally, operating as 12 car all the time but being able to more easily split for maintenance and storing them. It is possible to split the 10 car 701s and 12 car 700s but it is quite difficult, mainly due to the walk through design.

 

[221101 Voyager]

This is the wrong way round unfortunately. There aren't many routes in the south east that could even fit commuters onto a four car train, let alone an eight car in the peaks. Covid aside, the number of people using trains across the SE network is huge. The numbers may not return to full commuting, but the SE network is busy all the time. You'll still need the capacity on shopping weekends and weekdays throughout the day.

If you buy uniform 12 car trains, the marginal cost of running that vice a mixed fleet of different train lengths is negligible. In fact, it's actually cheaper to run a fixed formation 12 car than three 4 car trains put together, because there is less wastage in cabs, less maintenance ect, with the caveat of having enough space to put them.

It saves staff to split and join trains, every train is walk through, every train has the same doors in the same place ect. The few times you don't need the capacity are offset by the majority of time when that extra space helps.

It's also cheaper to buy one set of trains and use them for everything, as every train is therefore interchangeable. No messing around with diagrams or different units splitting/joining throughout the day.

Thank you for the insight. I have a much better idea about SE metro then when I started this thread.

My final choice for formations would be a mixture of 6x20m for quieter routes/services and 12x20m for the busier routes/services.

In terms of carriage totals there would need to be 150 coaches to replace 376s, 588 coaches to replace 465s and 86 coaches to replace 466s.

That would mean a minimum number of coaches would be 824 to match todays capacity.

My proposal is as follows

65 units formed of 6 20m coaches = 390 vehicles

55 units formed of 12 20m coaches = 660 vehicles

giving a total of 1,050 vehicles which represents a 27.4% increase in capacity.

That should be enough capacity to avoid most overcrowding for many years to come.

 

[Energy]

My proposal is as follows

65 units formed of 6 20m coaches = 390 vehicles

55 units formed of 12 20m coaches = 660 vehicles

I would go for 175 6x20m trains, couple extra cabs but makes maintenance and physically storing the trains easier, 240m is long compared to the maximum length of 100m SE currently needs somewhere to store. Siemens offer the Desiro City with a cab gangway.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I would go for 175 6x20m trains, couple extra cabs but makes maintenance and physically storing the trains easier, 240m is long compared to the maximum length of 100m SE currently needs somewhere to store. Siemens offer the Desiro City with a cab gangway.

Maybe in the new train deal the manufacturer could include new or upgraded maintenance facilities (Like on thameslink) to accomodate the new longer trains.

I think having all 6 car would mean a lot of cabs wasted on busier diagrams.
Maybe a large proportion are 6 cars and a smaller amount of 12 car units perhaps.

How about 111 x 6 car (666 coaches) and 32 x 12 car (384 coaches) that would save wasting quite so many cabs from having 175 x 6 car units.

 

[Kite159]

Thank you for the insight. I have a much better idea about SE metro then when I started this thread.

My final choice for formations would be a mixture of 6x20m for quieter routes/services and 12x20m for the busier routes/services.

In terms of carriage totals there would need to be 150 coaches to replace 376s, 588 coaches to replace 465s and 86 coaches to replace 466s.

That would mean a minimum number of coaches would be 824 to match todays capacity.

My proposal is as follows

65 units formed of 6 20m coaches = 390 vehicles

55 units formed of 12 20m coaches = 660 vehicles

giving a total of 1,050 vehicles which represents a 27.4% increase in capacity.

That should be enough capacity to avoid most overcrowding for many years to come.

So a downgrade for those routes out of Victoria which can only operate as 8 coaches as they will be restricted to a single 6 coach unit?

 

[Energy]

So a downgrade for those routes out of Victoria which can only operate as 8 coaches as they will be restricted to a single 6 coach unit?

If SE metro is as busy as this thread says it is I would try and make all/most services 12 car...

 

[221101 Voyager]

So a downgrade for those routes out of Victoria which can only operate as 8 coaches as they will be restricted to a single 6 coach unit?

I wasn't aware of that.

In that case let's amend that once again to

91 x 8 car = 728 + 27 x 12 car = 324 total of 1052 coaches.

 

[Kite159]

If SE metro is as busy as this thread says it is I would try and make all/most services 12 car...

Breaking out the cheque book to try and change the parts of the routes from Victoria which can't fit 12 coach units due to track/signal layout?

I wasn't aware of that.

In that case let's amend that once again to

91 x 8 car = 728 + 27 x 12 car = 324 total of 1052 coaches.

Far too many 8 coach units meaning those routes which operate currently as 10 coaches will be downgraded

 

[221101 Voyager]

Far too many 8 coach units meaning those routes which operate currently as 10 coaches will be downgraded

Ok, how about...

Option 1 - 126-5 car units (630 coaches), with 35 12-car units (420 coaches)

Option 2 - 130 5-car units (650 coaches) with 40 10-car units (400 vehicles)

Option 3 - 210 5-car units (1,050 coaches)

Option 4 - 105 10-car units (1,050 coaches)

Option 5 - 109 5-car units (545 coaches) with 42 12-car units (504 coaches)

Option 6 - 106 5-car units (530 coaches) with 52 10-car units (520 coaches)

Option 7 - 75 8-car units (600 coaches) with 38 12-car units (456 coaches)

Option 8 - 75 8-car units (600 coaches) with 45 10-car units (450 coaches)

All formations would use 20 metre coaches.


All options result in a total carriage number increase of over 27%.

Surely one of these options could be a good fit @Kite159?

 

[Kite159]

Or taking into account limitations due to track layout, order a small number of 8 coach units primarily for routes from Victoria, then split the rest between 10 & 12 coach units.

Ordering the 10 coach units mainly for Charing Cross which has limitations on which platforms 12 coach units can use.
Majority of services from Cannon Street will be 12 coaches, if all the platforms can support such long trains.

 

[greyman42]

Ah ok right. Do they have different motors to the BREL ones then?

Yes I believe so, perhaps someone can give a bit more detail?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Or taking into account limitations due to track layout, order a small number of 8 coach units primarily for routes from Victoria, then split the rest between 10 & 12 coach units.

Ordering the 10 coach units mainly for Charing Cross which has limitations on which platforms 12 coach units can use.
Majority of services from Cannon Street will be 12 coaches, if all the platforms can support such long trains.

The trouble with ordering several different cariage lengths is that it makes planning formations more difficult as you need the correct units in the correct places at the correct time.

I shall have a look at the sectional appendix to find out more and see what sort of formations would be the best overall options.



The following routes can run a 12 car 465 down them.
Class 465 12-car Networker trains MUST ONLY be formed of 3 x 4 car units coupled together, and MUST NOT include any Class 466 units.

The following routes are permitted for Class 465 Networker 12-car operations:

Charing Cross/Cannon Street and Sevenoaks, Dartford, Gravesend and Hayes


It looks like a fixed 12 car unit on SE metro could present quite a few issues, see below for where 12 car 465s can't run.

These routes cannot have a 12 car 465 down them
The following routes are not permitted for Class 465 Networker 12-car operations:

• All routes out of Victoria or Blackfriars

• Any station via Herne Hill or Catford

• Bromley North Branch

• New Beckenham spur to either Petts Wood Junction or Sevenoaks via Bromley South

• Woolwich Dockyard station platforms are not long enough to accommodate a 12-car formation and therefore no 12-car Networker
formations are permitted to call at this station in either direction

• Down Fast Platform 3 at Grove Park has no 12-car equipment, therefore no Class 465 12-car Networker formations are permitted to call at this platform.

The following sidings are not permitted for Class 465 Networker 12-car operations:
• Dartford Up and Down sidings (Note: With the exception of Number 1 road at Dartford Up sidings which can accommodate a 12-car train)

• Slade Green Up sidings

• Plumstead sidings (Note: Number 1 road at Plumstead can accommodate a 12-car train but a shunter is required)

• Shunting of 12-car trains BETWEEN the up and down sidings at Grove Park is not permitted due to signal sighting issues with L1299 signal (Country end of platform 3 at Hither Green station).


The following instructions apply to Class 465 Networker 12-car operations at Charing Cross Station:

• Platforms 1, 2 or 3 shall be used for the operation of Class 465 Networker 12-car formations. Kent / Sussex / Wessex Routes Sectional

• Platforms 4, 5 or 6 are not long enough for a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation to be accommodated. Therefore no Class 465 Networker 12-car formation in passenger service should be routed into platforms 4, 5, and 6 under normal timetable and train regulation conditions.

• All Class 465 Networker 12-car formations will normally be routed on the Up & Down Charing Cross Slow Lines from Ewer Street Junction. Drivers are required to contact the signaller if a route leading to Platforms 4, 5 or 6 is set for a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation;

• If during planned degraded and emergency working, a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation needs to be routed into these platforms, then the train must have the last 2 coaches locked out of passenger service at Waterloo East.

• If a Class 465 Networker 12-car train is inadvertently routed in Platforms 4, 5 or 6 at Charing Cross, due to infrastructure or train failure or due to the error of signaller or/and the driver, the driver must, on the train coming to a stand, not release the doors and carry out the following actions: a. An announcement must be made to all passengers that the train is not fully berthed in the platform and that there will be a delay in opening the doors. b. The driver, assisted if necessary by platform staff, must walk along the train and then open each coach individually by the external local door release. c. The passengers in the last two coaches must be verbally advised to walk through the train so they can safely alight from a coach berthed in the platform.

overall, a fixed new 240m 12 car unit would cause headaches.

 

[londonteacher]

The trouble with ordering several different cariage lengths is that it makes planning formations more difficult as you need the correct units in the correct places at the correct time.

I shall have a look at the sectional appendix to find out more and see what sort of formations would be the best overall options.



The following routes can run a 12 car 465 down them.
Class 465 12-car Networker trains MUST ONLY be formed of 3 x 4 car units coupled together, and MUST NOT include any Class 466 units.

The following routes are permitted for Class 465 Networker 12-car operations:

Charing Cross/Cannon Street and Sevenoaks, Dartford, Gravesend and Hayes


It looks like a fixed 12 car unit on SE metro could present quite a few issues, see below for where 12 car 465s can't run.

These routes cannot have a 12 car 465 down them
The following routes are not permitted for Class 465 Networker 12-car operations:

• All routes out of Victoria or Blackfriars

• Any station via Herne Hill or Catford

• Bromley North Branch

• New Beckenham spur to either Petts Wood Junction or Sevenoaks via Bromley South

• Woolwich Dockyard station platforms are not long enough to accommodate a 12-car formation and therefore no 12-car Networker
formations are permitted to call at this station in either direction

• Down Fast Platform 3 at Grove Park has no 12-car equipment, therefore no Class 465 12-car Networker formations are permitted to call at this platform.

The following sidings are not permitted for Class 465 Networker 12-car operations:
• Dartford Up and Down sidings (Note: With the exception of Number 1 road at Dartford Up sidings which can accommodate a 12-car train)

• Slade Green Up sidings

• Plumstead sidings (Note: Number 1 road at Plumstead can accommodate a 12-car train but a shunter is required)

• Shunting of 12-car trains BETWEEN the up and down sidings at Grove Park is not permitted due to signal sighting issues with L1299 signal (Country end of platform 3 at Hither Green station).


The following instructions apply to Class 465 Networker 12-car operations at Charing Cross Station:

• Platforms 1, 2 or 3 shall be used for the operation of Class 465 Networker 12-car formations. Kent / Sussex / Wessex Routes Sectional

• Platforms 4, 5 or 6 are not long enough for a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation to be accommodated. Therefore no Class 465 Networker 12-car formation in passenger service should be routed into platforms 4, 5, and 6 under normal timetable and train regulation conditions.

• All Class 465 Networker 12-car formations will normally be routed on the Up & Down Charing Cross Slow Lines from Ewer Street Junction. Drivers are required to contact the signaller if a route leading to Platforms 4, 5 or 6 is set for a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation;

• If during planned degraded and emergency working, a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation needs to be routed into these platforms, then the train must have the last 2 coaches locked out of passenger service at Waterloo East.

• If a Class 465 Networker 12-car train is inadvertently routed in Platforms 4, 5 or 6 at Charing Cross, due to infrastructure or train failure or due to the error of signaller or/and the driver, the driver must, on the train coming to a stand, not release the doors and carry out the following actions: a. An announcement must be made to all passengers that the train is not fully berthed in the platform and that there will be a delay in opening the doors. b. The driver, assisted if necessary by platform staff, must walk along the train and then open each coach individually by the external local door release. c. The passengers in the last two coaches must be verbally advised to walk through the train so they can safely alight from a coach berthed in the platform.

overall, a fixed new 240m 12 car unit would cause headaches.

It wouldn't cause headaches though because new units would have SDO and would not require the DOO platform equipment. The Victoria routes might be more of a problem but that's why no-one is suggesting just 12 cars.

You have said all of above on the 465s which would be irrelevant as they will be being replaced as per your thread title.

 

[Aictos]

I would go for 2x6 personally, operating as 12 car all the time but being able to more easily split for maintenance and storing them. It is possible to split the 10 car 701s and 12 car 700s but it is quite difficult, mainly due to the walk through design.

Just to say that usually you can't split the Class 700s as they're classed as one unit even though they're technically 2 half sets but as far as TOPS is concerned all 8 or 12 carriages are of a fixed formation.

As to the number of units, 49 Class 700/1s would be enough to dispose of the entire Class 465 fleet so I would suggest that SE place a order for:

either

30 x Class 707s so every Class 707 operated service is operated as a 10 car service

55 x Class 700/1s so more services are operated as 12 cars trains

OR

SE places a order to extend the existing Class 707 fleet to 12 cars which gives a fleet of 30 x Class 707s in a 12 car formation

OR

SE places a order for 55 Class 700/0s and 50 Class 700/1s

 

[221101 Voyager]

It wouldn't cause headaches though because new units would have SDO and would not require the DOO platform equipment. The Victoria routes might be more of a problem but that's why no-one is suggesting just 12 cars.

You have said all of above on the 465s which would be irrelevant as they will be being replaced as per your thread title.

I get what you say about the 465s going and that new trains would not be subject to all of the restrictions but it certainly shows that 12 car units aren't suitable for most of SE metro and that was all I was trying to say.

Here are some hard numbers on terminus platform lengths to see what formations could work

Charing cross presents no issues for 10 car (200m) stock.
P1 is 252.6m
P2 is 250.8m
P3 is 254.1m
P4 is 222.8m
P5 is 220.6m
P6 is 227.8m

Cannon Street are long enough to fit a 12-car 240m unit easily.
P1,2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 are all 259.3m

London Victoria SE platforms (3 & 4 present issues for 200m 10-car units)
P1 is 270.0m
P2 is 359.0m
P3 is 188.0m
P4 is 201.0m
P5 is 247.0m
P6 is 245.0m
P7 is 286.0m
P8 is 221.0m

Blackfriars Terminating platforms are long enough to fit a 12-car 240m unit easily.
P3 is 282.0m
P4 is 284.0

All platforms at London Bridge can fit 10x20m units easily.

Orpington can fit 10x20m units easily too.

Sevenoaks can fit 10x20m easily too.

Sundridge Park can fit 10x20m with 5 m to spare.

Hayes (Kent) can fit 10x20m easily too.

so overall a maximum fixed length of 10 x 20m coaches is easily possible except for 3 & 4 at Victoria.


Any other non-terminus stations that can‘t fit a 200m unit can use SDO.

so with this new knowledge I can now make a well informed decision and go for

52x 10 car units (520 vehicles) (these will be not be able to use Victoria P3 & 4 due to short platforms.)

with

132 x 4 car units (528 vehicles)

or

105 x 5 car units (525 vehicles)

I don’t want to have too many variations in train lengths as someone said up thread it may cause a headache for train planning and scheduling.

 

[D365]

Ah ok right. Do they have different motors to the BREL ones then?

Metro-Cammell built Class 465/2, /9 and Class 466 use GEC-Alsthom traction inverters and motors. ABB-built Class 365 also uses GEC-Alsthom equipment.

BREL/ABB built Class 465/0 and /1 use Hitachi three-phase inverters and Brush motors.

 

[Energy]

Just to say that usually you can't split the Class 700s as they're classed as one unit even though they're technically 2 half sets but as far as TOPS is concerned all 8 or 12 carriages are of a fixed formation.

You can split them for maintenance I believe.

 

[Kite159]

I get what you say about the 465s going and that new trains would not be subject to all of the restrictions but it certainly shows that 12 car units aren't suitable for most of SE metro and that was all I was trying to say.

Here are some hard numbers on terminus platform lengths to see what formations could work

Charing cross presents no issues for 10 car (200m) stock.
P1 is 252.6m
P2 is 250.8m
P3 is 254.1m
P4 is 222.8m
P5 is 220.6m
P6 is 227.8m

Cannon Street are long enough to fit a 12-car 240m unit easily.
P1,2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 are all 259.3m

London Victoria SE platforms (3 & 4 present issues for 200m 10-car units)
P1 is 270.0m
P2 is 359.0m
P3 is 188.0m
P4 is 201.0m
P5 is 247.0m
P6 is 245.0m
P7 is 286.0m
P8 is 221.0m

Blackfriars Terminating platforms are long enough to fit a 12-car 240m unit easily.
P3 is 282.0m
P4 is 284.0

All platforms at London Bridge can fit 10x20m units easily.

Orpington can fit 10x20m units easily too.

Sevenoaks can fit 10x20m easily too.

Sundridge Park can fit 10x20m with 5 m to spare.

Hayes (Kent) can fit 10x20m easily too.

so overall a maximum fixed length of 10 x 20m coaches is easily possible except for 3 & 4 at Victoria.


Any other non-terminus stations that can‘t fit a 200m unit can use SDO.

so with this new knowledge I can now make a well informed decision and go for

52x 10 car units (520 vehicles) (these will be not be able to use Victoria P3 & 4 due to short platforms.)

with

132 x 4 car units (528 vehicles)

or

105 x 5 car units (525 vehicles)

I don’t want to have too many variations in train lengths as someone said up thread it may cause a headache for train planning and scheduling.

So lots of little units attached with wasted space due to cabs rather than fixed formation units allowing passengers to spread out with no chance of a 4 coach unit popping up on a 10 coach service due to nobody in the depot spare to attach them together?

 

[221101 Voyager]

So lots of little units attached with wasted space due to cabs rather than fixed formation units allowing passengers to spread out with no chance of a 4 coach unit popping up on a 10 coach service due to nobody in the depot spare to attach them together?

While your point is bold is a good one, how do they manage to attach 4 car 465s together or 466s in the present day if there is no one to attach them?



This idea makes the best use of available platform lengths at Victoria but are fixed length to avoid issues with coupling them.

52x 10 car units (520 vehicles)

with

66 x 8 car units (528 vehicles)

This idea makes the best use of available platform lengths at Victoria but are fixed length to avoid issues with coupling them.

This way you’d have long fixed formations to reduced dwell times, allow passengers to walk right through and you have a significant amount of units that can fit in to Victora P3 & P4 with no issues (8-car only due to short platforms).


Is this a better idea @Kite159 ?

 

[Kite159]

Having fixed 10 coaches, mean all that wasted money making parts of the network able to support 12 coaches not being used

Also 66 is far too many 8 coach units, as pre Covid most services in the peaks from Charing Cross/Cannon Street were 10 coach services with the odd 12 coach formation thrown in when stock levels allowed it.

8 coaches for Victoria isn't a problem at Victoria but for stations along that route which can't take anything longer due to the track layout, ie Brixton where longer trains will foul the junction. If it was just those 2 platforms at Victoria which was the issue then it would be a case of timetabling so only 8 coach electrostars used those platforms (Maidstone line etc)

 

[221101 Voyager]

Having fixed 10 coaches, mean all that wasted money making parts of the network able to support 12 coaches not being used

Also 66 is far too many 8 coach units, as pre Covid most services in the peaks from Charing Cross/Cannon Street were 10 coach services with the odd 12 coach formation thrown in when stock levels allowed it.

8 coaches for Victoria isn't a problem at Victoria but for stations along that route which can't take anything longer due to the track layout, ie Brixton where longer trains will foul the junction. If it was just those 2 platforms at Victoria which was the issue then it would be a case of timetabling so only 8 coach electrostars used those platforms (Maidstone line etc)

if possible via timetabling you could have specific lengths for specific routes as the SE metro isn‘t a simple solution for suitable formations.


20 x 8-car (160 coaches) for use out of Victoria and Brixton where 8-car maximum is required.

40 x 12 car (480 coaches) to make best use of 12 car platforms at terminus stops like Cannon Street and Charing Cross And other non-terminus stations with 12 car platforms.

45x 10 car (450 coaches) (to use on platforms that can‘t fit a 12 car unit ie; P4, 5 & 6 at Charing Cross)