What does Leeds need in addition to buses?

[exile]

What rail routes in GM only run every 2 hours?

I didn't say "routes", I said "stations", and off the top of my head I can name Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Belle Vue.

 

[yorksrob]

Which services don't co-ordinate though?

(bearing in mind that if a service from the south co-ordinates well with the Ilkley service then it'll co-ordinate badly with the Skipton service - if the Knottingley service co-ordinates well with the Blackpool service then the Normanton one won't co-ordinate with the Blackpool serveice)

.

Certainly Settle-Carlisle services and Hull trains coordinate poorly with the Hallam line (three and minus 3 minutes If I remember). Also, evening services from Manchester Victoria now connect poorly with the last Huddersfield - Wakefield (about minus 4 if I remember).

These connections have got worse as arriving services have got later but Wakefield services haven't changed.
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One or two people have mentioned later services. Earlier this year. Transdev started running some late '36' buses to Harrogate on Friday and Saturday nights. The Friday ones have since been dropped, apparently owing to lack of custom.

A last train at 23:30 like the one to Harrogate would be an amazing improvement for this neck of the woods.

 

[anti-pacer]

I didn't say "routes", I said "stations", and off the top of my head I can name Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Belle Vue.

Sorry, didn't read it properly.

 

[edwin_m]

I didn't say "routes", I said "stations", and off the top of my head I can name Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Belle Vue.

I don't think Metrolink conversion would be possible here as this route is also being used by longer-distance trains with no obvious alternative (fastest route between Manchester and Warrington for instance). Nor did it figure in GM's tram-train strategy which is a possible way of getting Metrolink-like service on routes that can't be closed to through trains.

 

[Andyh82]

Sorting out pinch points to benefit all road users should be a priority, which would reduce congestion and make buses more attractive.

Take the A647 between Bradford and Leeds, they've recently spent millions on the cycle lane but done nothing to that small section approaching Armley where 2 lanes merge into 1 before becoming 2 again.

The only thing standing in the way of widening is the edge of a park and derelict buildings, but they widened it slightly to build the cycle lane and other traffic still has a needless 10-15 minute queue at peak times effecting the 72/X6. The rest of the route from Thornbury to Leeds is dual carriageway.

 

[snowball]

Deleted

 

[fowler9]

Hackney Cab or a late night bus service unless things have changed. Getting home in a city where you cannot flag down a taxi is hell on earth in the early hours. Oh and a decent football team

 

[Camden]

Unlike cities like Manchester, Leeds isn't an especially large city, it being metropolitan only on a technicality in a sense of its proximity to other places like Bradford, Harrogate and so on all of which are completely separate entities rather than suburbs and towns of Leeds, so I think this causes some complications when thinking about how best to connect the place (or places) up.

When thinking about city centre traffic, perhaps some decent out of town park and rides could cut down on jams. Perhaps also things like buses having priority on traffic lights to give faster journeys.

Ideally the place would have a tram like other mid sized cities like Nottingham and Sheffield, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Nottingham and Sheffield got lucky in some respects with regards to timing, but if it was today they wouldn't stand a chance. You need to be a big city like Manchester in order to get only a mid sized city solution in this country.

 

[Busaholic]

Unlike cities like Manchester, Leeds isn't an especially large city, it being metropolitan only on a technicality in a sense of its proximity to other places like Bradford, Harrogate and so on all of which are completely separate entities rather than suburbs and towns of Leeds, so I think this causes some complications when thinking about how best to connect the place (or places) up.

When thinking about city centre traffic, perhaps some decent out of town park and rides could cut down on jams. Perhaps also things like buses having priority on traffic lights to give faster journeys.

Ideally the place would have a tram like other mid sized cities like Nottingham and Sheffield, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Nottingham and Sheffield got lucky in some respects with regards to timing, but if it was today they wouldn't stand a chance. You need to be a big city like Manchester in order to get only a mid sized city solution in this country.

You say Nottingham wouldn't stand a chance today, and that could be true if they were trying to initiate a system, but they've expanded and continue to produce plans for more lines, involving other local authority areas of different political hues too. Maybe if the South Yorkshire tram-train is deemed a success if and when it comes to fruition then that could provide an impetus for Leeds.

 

[ivanhoe]

You say Nottingham wouldn't stand a chance today, and that could be true if they were trying to initiate a system, but they've expanded and continue to produce plans for more lines, involving other local authority areas of different political hues too. Maybe if the South Yorkshire tram-train is deemed a success if and when it comes to fruition then that could provide an impetus for Leeds.

Nottingham has a strong Transport mindset which Leeds sadly lacks, as do some other English cities. Nottingham buses quickly privatised itself in 1986 and had the mindset to bring in Transdev as an investor in the 90's. They have been ahead of the game. Indeed I would point to Nottingham rather than Manchester as a leader in Transport Planning.

 

[fowler9]

Nottingham has a strong Transport mindset which Leeds sadly lacks, as do some other English cities. Nottingham buses quickly privatised itself in 1986 and had the mindset to bring in Transdev as an investor in the 90's. They have been ahead of the game. Indeed I would point to Nottingham rather than Manchester as a leader in Transport Planning.

Nottingham does seem very well organised for a relatively small city. Liverpool, or rather Merseyside as a whole is a mess.

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham has a strong Transport mindset which Leeds sadly lacks, as do some other English cities. Nottingham buses quickly privatised itself in 1986 and had the mindset to bring in Transdev as an investor in the 90's. They have been ahead of the game. Indeed I would point to Nottingham rather than Manchester as a leader in Transport Planning.

Nottingham City Transport was never "privatised" as such. It was deregulated like all other non-London bus operations and is required by law to operate commercially, but the council retained ownership until the part sale to Transdev and is still the majority owner. The other major operator is TrentBarton, who don't go out of their way to compete with NCT. The council and both operators have the sensible attitude that co-operation is the way forward to grow the market, give priority to buses to give people a viable alternative to driving, hence keep the city moving and keep both companies viable. Bus ridership per head of population in Nottingham is amongst the highest outside London and has grown in recent years, with a fall over the last five probably due to expansion of the tram network.

The other English city near the top of the ridership table is Brighton, which has considerable similarities. However bus ridership is lower and falling in all the ITA areas and even fell in London in 2015. West Yorkshire has the lowest bus ridership of any ITA but not that far behind Greater Manchester (but the figures exclude Metrolink) or South Yorkshire.

In my view buses can be made to work in medium-sized cities under the UK regime, but it requires all parties to act in a spirit of co-operation. There is little evidence that any large city in England has a successful public transport network based mainly on buses.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ual-bus-statistics-year-ending-march-2016.pdf

 

[Busaholic]

Nottingham City Transport was never "privatised" as such. It was deregulated like all other London bus operations

Hope you don't mind me pointing out you meant to say non-London.

 

[Andyh82]

The fact that neither of the two bus companies in Nottingham fell into the hands of a big group will have been a significant factor. Local management based in the city (or maybe close by in Derby in TB's case) rather than decisions being made 100s of miles east away and without the pressure of unrealistic profit margins.

Had NCT been taken over by First, I'm sure they'd be in the same situation as Leeds now.

The tram was until recently very limited and train services in the city area petty much non existent will also have helped. Leeds has quite an extensive commuter train service more than many cities of its size, which will have an effect on numbers using the bus.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Are there many hourly bus services in Leeds? Most areas seem to do well on frequency I think.

What about a tram system?

The only hourly service I can think of is the 22 Seacroft to Rothwell? and on Sunday's the 64 from Infirmiry Street to Aberford.

It doesn't help that First, as the dominant operator across Leeds, are completely inept. Dozens of journeys are cancelled on a daily basis due to a very long term staffing shortage so even though it looks like many routes have a good service in reality they don't.

Makes you wonder if Batman, Mr Staypuffed and the bloke with 'tash and donkey jacket have walked out on strike again. In all seriousness, First Leeds should make all of the frequent services that are every 10 minutes to every 15 which would allow some routes that are every 30 minutes stay every 30 minutes.

Surely they could offload the 64, 9 and the 40 to either Squarepeg, Utopia, The Tockwith Bus Company or Stephensons of Easingwold and the First staff released onto other routes to ease the staffing problem.

 

[edwin_m]

Hope you don't mind me pointing out you meant to say non-London.

Corrected thanks.

 

[yorksrob]

Unlike cities like Manchester, Leeds isn't an especially large city, it being metropolitan only on a technicality in a sense of its proximity to other places like Bradford, Harrogate and so on all of which are completely separate entities rather than suburbs and towns of Leeds, so I think this causes some complications when thinking about how best to connect the place (or places) up.

When thinking about city centre traffic, perhaps some decent out of town park and rides could cut down on jams. Perhaps also things like buses having priority on traffic lights to give faster journeys.

Ideally the place would have a tram like other mid sized cities like Nottingham and Sheffield, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Nottingham and Sheffield got lucky in some respects with regards to timing, but if it was today they wouldn't stand a chance. You need to be a big city like Manchester in order to get only a mid sized city solution in this country.

The multi-centric nature of West Yorkshire is one of the reasons why local train services need sorting out, particularly in terms of connections and early/late trains. The current situation where one can't even visit the theatre in Leeds and expect to get a train back (as an example) simply isn't good enough.

 

[Deerfold]

The multi-centric nature of West Yorkshire is one of the reasons why local train services need sorting out, particularly in terms of connections and early/late trains. The current situation where one can't even visit the theatre in Leeds and expect to get a train back (as an example) simply isn't good enough.

To be fair on Metro, in the 80s and early 90s they made massive improvements to rail services in West Yorkshire. Since then the only major changes have been the Metro-sponsored opening of Brighouse with the extra train an hour to Manchester and the introduction of the 5th hourly fast Leeds to Manchester service. In the early 80s there was typically 1 train an hour Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester.

Whilst Metro did well at getting increased frequencies they did little about first and last train times. I'm relatively lucky with a last train at 2319 (though I have to get the 2256 to have a chance of getting a bus home from the station) but remember well living near the Calder Valley and its 2238 last train that was just a bit too early to go to the theatre or a gig.

In my clubbing days I lived halfway between Manchester and Leeds but would go out in Manchester because I could be out until trains and buses started up again. If I went out in Leeds it was £50 in a taxi 15 or more years ago which rather added to the costs of a night out.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair on Metro, in the 80s and early 90s they made massive improvements to rail services in West Yorkshire. Since then the only major changes have been the Metro-sponsored opening of Brighouse with the extra train an hour to Manchester and the introduction of the 5th hourly fast Leeds to Manchester service. In the early 80s there was typically 1 train an hour Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester.

Whilst Metro did well at getting increased frequencies they did little about first and last train times. I'm relatively lucky with a last train at 2319 (though I have to get the 2256 to have a chance of getting a bus home from the station) but remember well living near the Calder Valley and its 2238 last train that was just a bit too early to go to the theatre or a gig.

In my clubbing days I lived halfway between Manchester and Leeds but would go out in Manchester because I could be out until trains and buses started up again. If I went out in Leeds it was £50 in a taxi 15 or more years ago which rather added to the costs of a night out.

Indeed, your experience of half ten last trains is similar to mine. I keep pointing this out to them in various consultations, but nothing ever changes.

One of the issues with increased frequencies on the Huddersfield corridor is that connections get squeezed, particularly where connecting services don't change to take account of it. Huddersfield - Wakefield services are a case in point. They would be a lot more use to me if they connected with the Hudds - Man Vic services but they no longer do.

 

[Camden]

The multi-centric nature of West Yorkshire is one of the reasons why local train services need sorting out, particularly in terms of connections and early/late trains. The current situation where one can't even visit the theatre in Leeds and expect to get a train back (as an example) simply isn't good enough.

While I agree, it can be a similar story for some towns around London where there is bound to be many times the demand for late night trains. Were West Yorkshire to run late night trains from Leeds to all the surrounding towns and villages, I expect they would be quite lightly used overall and just not cost effective. I think bus integration would be better, as these could run later and more frequently.

 

[yorksrob]

While I agree, it can be a similar story for some towns around London where there is bound to be many times the demand for late night trains. Were West Yorkshire to run late night trains from Leeds to all the surrounding towns and villages, I expect they would be quite lightly used overall and just not cost effective. I think bus integration would be better, as these could run later and more frequently.

On the contrary, you're more likely to get many more people travelling from Leeds out to West Yorkshire of a night, than between towns in the South East (the exceptions being travel back from London and maybe Brighton, which in the case of London, already has better evening services).

The 22:40 or so Leeds to Wakefield on a weekend is a full and standing 4 carriage 158 as an example, so totally unsuited to bus travel - particularly given that buses take longer and don't have toilet facilities.

Buses are fine for the shorter stretches to the edge of Leeds, but this is a different proposition to the inter-town traffic.

 

[Deerfold]

While I agree, it can be a similar story for some towns around London where there is bound to be many times the demand for late night trains. Were West Yorkshire to run late night trains from Leeds to all the surrounding towns and villages, I expect they would be quite lightly used overall and just not cost effective. I think bus integration would be better, as these could run later and more frequently.

As Yorksrob says the last trains out of Leeds can be the busiest of the day on a Friday or Saturday. My 2319 can be tricky to get on. And you can only just make that after a gig at the Leeds Arena. With other venues being further from the station you have to decide whether to risk missing the train or the last couple of songs.

 

[Camden]

The last train might be busy, but what about the ones before it? If the last train was 00:19 I expect the 23:19 might be a bit quiet.

There might be a case for foregoing some of the earlier trains and then having one at gone midnight, but this also then has to be balanced against the extra cost from staff and the like, impact on other places served by the trains etc.

I doubt that Leeds is a big enough draw to justify that kind of upheaval. I know that other places have coaches which do late night runs between towns, perhaps that might be better as a halfway house.

 

[Deerfold]

The last train might be busy, but what about the ones before it? If the last train was 00:19 I expect the 23:19 might be a bit quiet.

There might be a case for foregoing some of the earlier trains and then having one at gone midnight, but this also then has to be balanced against the extra cost from staff and the like, impact on other places served by the trains etc.

I doubt that Leeds is a big enough draw to justify that kind of upheaval. I know that other places have coaches which do late night runs between towns, perhaps that might be better as a halfway house.

The half hourly 4 carriage evening services to Skipton are regularly busy, though the only other services I've struggled to get on have been when we get a 142 instead.

If the last train was the 0019, I'd expect both to be busy. The overnight expresses which only stop at Huddersfield and Manchester get pretty busy on a weekend though you might expect Manchester to be the bigger draw.

Transdev Keighley seem to have found it worth putting on a new late bus from Leeds to Keighley at 2340 even though it takes more than twice as long as the train and is tricky for thøse buying a return ticket who don't know which they'll get. That's only a partial solution for those of us further out though.

 

[yorksrob]

The last train might be busy, but what about the ones before it? If the last train was 00:19 I expect the 23:19 might be a bit quiet.

There might be a case for foregoing some of the earlier trains and then having one at gone midnight, but this also then has to be balanced against the extra cost from staff and the like, impact on other places served by the trains etc.

I doubt that Leeds is a big enough draw to justify that kind of upheaval. I know that other places have coaches which do late night runs between towns, perhaps that might be better as a halfway house.

So, the penultimate train might not be as busy as the last one (although not by much on my line). I don't see how this is different to anywhere else. I've been on some very quiet not quite last trains in Kent.

Your half way house would be expensive and not work. You would need a completely new lot of staffing and coach resources, as opposed to keeping the existing staff and trains going for an extra hour to an hour and a half. Plus expecting passengers to switch to a different mode with different ticketing, probably leaving from a different location is a non-starter.

Gap's in services also wouldn't save any money as staff would just hang around until their later service.

The only sensible option is to offer a rail service that's fit for purpose in the first place.

 

[bluenoxid]

Sorting out pinch points to benefit all road users should be a priority, which would reduce congestion and make buses more attractive.

Take the A647 between Bradford and Leeds, they've recently spent millions on the cycle lane but done nothing to that small section approaching Armley where 2 lanes merge into 1 before becoming 2 again.

The only thing standing in the way of widening is the edge of a park and derelict buildings, but they widened it slightly to build the cycle lane and other traffic still has a needless 10-15 minute queue at peak times effecting the 72/X6. The rest of the route from Thornbury to Leeds is dual carriageway.

There could be all sorts of covenents on the park and I don't think some of the residents would appreciate the term derelict buildings. However, I agree that it is a pinch point that needs sorting. I do wonder what could have been achieved if paths on the park had been upgraded to take cyclists.

I am concerned that this new LIDL could cause problems.