What does Leeds need in addition to buses?

[anti-pacer]

Personally I would like to see trams running in Leeds, but what do you think the city needs in addition to buses?

 

[J-2739]

It needs something like an S-Bahn. It's population suits that well.

 

[yorksrob]

Timetable connections that work would be a starting point.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A Premiership football club...

 

[J-2739]

A Premiership football club...

Liked!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It needs something like an S-Bahn. It's population suits that well.

All our big cities need a heavy-rail S-bahn *plus* either trams or a proper light-rail U-bahn depending on size. Manchester, say, has the trams, but really fails on a proper local rail service.

And buses should have limited city centre penetration and be used, with a unified fares system, to plug the gaps, not to compete.

 

[J-2739]

All our big cities need a heavy-rail S-bahn *plus* either trams or a proper light-rail U-bahn depending on size. Manchester, say, has the trams, but really fails on a proper local rail service.

To be fair on the Met, it does quite well for the people of Manchester in creating a unified service into the city. Something that Leeda fails upon.

And buses should have limited city centre penetration and be used, with a unified fares system, to plug the gaps, not to compete.

It would be more efficient if bus services were rearranged into feeder services to Met stations, like the European model. But due to our crazy history on competition, I doubt that would happen any time soon.

 

[anti-pacer]

A Premiership football club...

Come on Paul, I'm talking real possibilities not pipe dreams!

 

[Bayum]

More frequent services, particularly on some hourly services that always seem to be rammed.

More connectivity between the hospitals, failing that, a larger centralised hospital where all the specialities are based on one site instead of over two sites. If anyone believes comorbidities only happen in the aged, they're wrong.

Later and more frequent late services. I'm always surprised whenever I visit Manchester that there are trams running every ten minutes to hours I'm rarely awake for.

 

[anti-pacer]

More frequent services, particularly on some hourly services that always seem to be rammed.

More connectivity between the hospitals, failing that, a larger centralised hospital where all the specialities are based on one site instead of over two sites. If anyone believes comorbidities only happen in the aged, they're wrong.

Later and more frequent late services. I'm always surprised whenever I visit Manchester that there are trams running every ten minutes to hours I'm rarely awake for.

Are there many hourly bus services in Leeds? Most areas seem to do well on frequency I think.

What about a tram system?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair on the Met, it does quite well for the people of Manchester in creating a unified service into the city. Something that Leeda fails upon.

I agree that modern Metrolink is very good - it's rather like a German "U-bahn-lite" Stadtbahn that some German cities have and light years ahead of the cheap-and-nasty half-job it was when first built - it just is only one piece in the puzzle of a proper transport network for Greater Manchester.

It's certainly better than what Leeds has!

 

[Starmill]

Something to serve the North East of the city for a start. The bus services (everywhere, its just that here has truly no alternative) are very expensive and diabolically unreliable as well as painfully slow due to huge traffic congestion and everyone using coins to pay (an alternative has only just been introduced for any non-season, the white mcard, and that's not much use because it is so difficult to top up). Unless you live near Cross Gates (not the best service), Bramley or Burley Park / Headingley you are basically stuffed.

 

[J-2739]

I agree that modern Metrolink is very good - it's rather like a German "U-bahn-lite" Stadtbahn that some German cities have and light years ahead of the cheap-and-nasty half-job it was when first built - it just is only one piece in the puzzle of a proper transport network for Greater Manchester.

It's certainly better than what Leeds has!

All Manchester really needs is a 'neo-Picc Vicc' S-Bahn system, Tram extensions to the west, as well a rearrangement in bus services to serve as feeders, and Greater Manchester is pretty much complete.

Leeds, on the other hand, has a long, long way to go. Being the centre of the 4th largest metropolitan area in the UK, it's actually pretty humiliating that the area hasn't seen the total investment in suburban transport that many other city reigons have. They're still fiddling with their fingers over the BRT/Tram system, while bus services are at full brim.

Something needs to be done, but when?

 

[northernchris]

It doesn't help that First, as the dominant operator across Leeds, are completely inept. Dozens of journeys are cancelled on a daily basis due to a very long term staffing shortage so even though it looks like many routes have a good service in reality they don't.

 

[Iskra]

As a starting point: earlier and later first/last services on both buses and trains. Although we are lucky to have a limited overnight TPE train service.

I have a stupid situation in my village where my fastest bus to Leeds centre has always been operated by Arriva, but now First have started operating the late night Sunday services on that route instead, so if you buy a return ticket on a Sunday, you can't use it on the First buses and have to buy a new ticket. And then the bean counters will be scratching their heads wondering why nobody uses the buses anymore... Competition for competitions sake is not helping the customer.

But yes, the Leeds city area's public transport is an absolute joke, but I very much doubt anything is going to get done about it, because who would pay for it? No one is interested.

To those quipping about a Premiership football team; we are currently 4th in the League! ...But I doubt we'll get promoted. It would be nice though, to put Leeds and West Yorkshire back on the footballing map.

 

[yorksrob]

More frequent services, particularly on some hourly services that always seem to be rammed.

Later and more frequent late services. I'm always surprised whenever I visit Manchester that there are trams running every ten minutes to hours I'm rarely awake for.

These are key. Much more important than flashy gimmicks.

 

[ivanhoe]

Leeds needs to have control of its transport before anything happens. PTE'S have been almost aspirational bodies since it lost control of buses. Some have been more adept at exacting considerable capital from Governments to further increase their tram systems such as GM and Nottingham/Nottinghamshire , West Midlands whilst others have not had the clout. Leeds always comes across to me as not being politically astute as GM. A bit like Merseytravel.

 

[edwin_m]

Leeds needs to have control of its transport before anything happens. PTE'S have been almost aspirational bodies since it lost control of buses. Some have been more adept at exacting considerable capital from Governments to further increase their tram systems such as GM and Nottingham/Nottinghamshire , West Midlands whilst others have not had the clout. Leeds always comes across to me as not being politically astute as GM. A bit like Merseytravel.

What Greater Manchester has had, and some other PTE areas haven't, is unity of purpose. The GM authorities have largely supported Metrolink despite differing political control and some benefitting from it more than others.

 

[Busaholic]

It doesn't help that First, as the dominant operator across Leeds, are completely inept. Dozens of journeys are cancelled on a daily basis due to a very long term staffing shortage so even though it looks like many routes have a good service in reality they don't.

Didn't First do a great PR job when the trolleybus route was still in the balance by insisting they could do something comparable (with Borismasters, for godsake) for a fraction of the cost and without the disruption : all self-serving of course, as it was their buses that would have suffered the hit. Then we had First with buses attempting to look like trams in Sheffield, just because they weren't selected to run the actual trams there! Leeds, like Bristol, is years behind in public transport provision because of one dominant operator, in both cases First.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with First's bus side is that they never, ever stick with anything long-term. They have some good ideas but totally fail to properly develop them.

 

[tbtc]

There are serious problems in Leeds - terrible congestion - which will require something more fundamental than additional services before seven in the morning (or after seven at night) to solve.

With First Leeds, it feels a bit like a case of "hate the game, not the player". Whilst I know it's not fashionable to praise a metropolitan outpost of one of the "big" bus companies, they've tried a number of things in recent years. 1990s bendi-buses. Overground frequencies. 2000s bendi-buses. A pretty decent investment in double deckers for "provincial" UK operations. Simple zonal fares. mTickets. They've embraced the PTE's investment in guided busways.

The problems seem to be more at the PTE-level. Can't entirely blame First for the traffic congestion. Where are the Park & Rides? The Elland Road one seems to be working really well, but it's taken a long time to establish. Why wasn't one built at Stourton years ago? What about something on the Otley Road (near Boddington Hall)? Or a White Rose Centre P&R with integrated railway station? PTEs can seem reluctant to invest in P&R, but this is one of the few areas where South Yorkshire seems to be ahead of West Yorkshire.

Can't blame First for the train station and bus station being so far apart. Can't blame First for the awkward road layouts that mean everything seems to shuffle around the same loop around the city centre (Park Row > Headrow > Vicar Lane > Boar Lane >Park Lane) which means it only takes one "incident" to disrupt a dozen bus services.

Can't blame First for the fact that the bus is always going to struggle in a city with so many urban motorways/ dual carriageways where planning permission was given to attractive shopping destinations like White Rose/ Owlcoates/ Seacroft (and, over the boundary, the huge development at Birstall) with no rail access.

I'm not saying First are blameless - they've tinkered too much with their "non-Overground" services (e,g, the various half hourly routes that seem to be mucked around with on a regular basis) - I used to get very frustrated waiting for the old 732/ 733/ 736 on Kirkstall Road - but at least they've tried to change the things that they are capable of changing. Something bigger needs to be done to tackle the congestion in Leeds - but I don't know that there's space to impose any rail based solution in areas like Headingley.

I mean, I'd love some complicated clever integrated solution with a German name, but is there nothing to be said for more straightforward options to take thousands of cars off the road?

Timetable connections that work would be a starting point.

Which services don't co-ordinate though?

(bearing in mind that if a service from the south co-ordinates well with the Ilkley service then it'll co-ordinate badly with the Skipton service - if the Knottingley service co-ordinates well with the Blackpool service then the Normanton one won't co-ordinate with the Blackpool serveice)

A Premiership football club...

Come on Paul, I'm talking real possibilities not pipe dreams!

Aye - digging up the city to impose some wonderful-sounding German equivalent at the cost of billions is one thing but let's have a little realism here...

More frequent services, particularly on some hourly services that always seem to be rammed

Are there many hourly bus services in Leeds? Most areas seem to do well on frequency I think

I can't think of any busy services are only hourly (unless you are talking about hourly services that are part of a relatively frequent corridor to Kirklees/ Wakefield - i.e. they may appear to be hourly, but in "Leeds" terms they are part of a fairly regular corridor).

There are certainly some hourly service within Leeds - but these tend to be relatively marginal - always been the way - it was First Quickstep in my day - routes like the old 8/9 "outer circle" which don't really connect any major flows.

Something to serve the North East of the city for a start

Agreed - there's a huge population in that area unserved by any "rail" - which seems to go unnoticed on threads about "places in need of a station".

There are quite a few new housing developments on that side of town, quite a squeeze on local schools etc due to the increasing number of people, but no real change in the quality or quantity of public transport.

This should be a priority IMHO.

What Greater Manchester has had, and some other PTE areas haven't, is unity of purpose. The GM authorities have largely supported Metrolink despite differing political control and some benefitting from it more than others.

Agreed.

Meanwhile, over on this side of the Pennines we often have parochial concerns about other areas benefitting too much from spending (people in South Yorkshire resent spending in West Yorkshire, people in Huddersfield resent spending in Leeds... that kind of thing).

Things seem a lot more unified (in terms of purpose) on the other side of the hills. They identify a priority and get on with it (without worrying too much about whether it's an "Oldham" scheme or a "Wigan" scheme)

Didn't First do a great PR job when the trolleybus route was still in the balance by insisting they could do something comparable (with Borismasters, for godsake) for a fraction of the cost and without the disruption : all self-serving of course, as it was their buses that would have suffered the hit. Then we had First with buses attempting to look like trams in Sheffield, just because they weren't selected to run the actual trams there! Leeds, like Bristol, is years behind in public transport provision because of one dominant operator, in both cases First.

I'm not sure of the Sheffield example which you mention. The trams started in 1994, and First only arrived in town around 1998. IIRC Stagecoach took over the trams in 1997 (?).

The only bus service that "looked like trams" I can think of would be the C-reg bendi-buses - which moved from the "City Clipper" 500 to a Meadowhall service (501 - later including the 502) in 1990 when the shopping centre opened.

 

[glbotu]

So - pipe-dream alert - a South - North East tunnelled railway, possibly with an underground terminus somewhere in the Roundhay or Whinmoor areas, stations at least at Hunslet, Leeds City, Sheepscar and Oakwood. Yes, it would absolutely be expensive. No, no-one's going to pay for it. But it is what Leeds needs. South of Leeds City, the line could join the Knottingley line somewhere around Hunslet (for those who want the crayons to join up).

Better frequencies on existing local rail services wouldn't be a terrible idea either. The Harrogate line services could definitely do with being every 15 mins.

I mean, most British cities are missing something in terms of their public transport needs. I'd say only London and Manchester actually have a full range of public transport, appropriate for all journeys. By that I mean:

Bus
Urban Rail (U-Bahn if you want to feel more German)
Suburban Rail (S-Bahn)
Regional Rail

Otherwise, Liverpool is missing Urban rail, Newcastle has no suburban rail, Leeds is missing pretty much both Urban and Suburban rail, except in very specific cases, where I guess you could consider some services "Suburban", like Airedale/Wharfedale as well as Leeds - Bradford Interchange, Birmingham's Urban rail is laughably under-developed, although they're taking steps to remedy, Bristol has neither, Cardiff's not doing too badly, but it needs bigger trains and has big chunks of the city unserved, Sheffield is missing suburban rail as is Nottingham.

 

[theblackwatch]

One or two people have mentioned later services. Earlier this year. Transdev started running some late '36' buses to Harrogate on Friday and Saturday nights. The Friday ones have since been dropped, apparently owing to lack of custom.

 

[Deerfold]

Better frequencies on existing local rail services wouldn't be a terrible idea either. The Harrogate line services could definitely do with being every 15 mins.

Which it'll get during this franchise (between Harrogate and Leeds).

One or two people have mentioned later services. Earlier this year. Transdev started running some late '36' buses to Harrogate on Friday and Saturday nights. The Friday ones have since been dropped, apparently owing to lack of custom.

There's also the late CityZap which has also lost its late Friday services but which goes to 0305 on a Saturday.

Transdev have also made the 760 to Keighley an hour later every day, leaving Leeds at 2340 - making it one of the latest buses in Leeds Sunday to Friday nights.

 

[Robertj21a]

Leeds could really do with a quality tram network, but I can't see any chance of that whatsoever. If we're actually being realistic rather than building up a 'Wish List' then all I can see is some fresh thinking about cutting congestion and encouraging more bus services/better frequencies. There's not that many solutions to cutting congestion, but road charging was quite effective in London (until the volumes picked up again). A fee of, say, £10 per day would soon reduce the number of private cars around the central areas.

 

[nerd]

Centro have recently reconfigured their proposals for at Sprint network of Bus Rapid Transit routes across Birmingham.

Belfast seem to be proceeding with BRT on very similar principles

Sprint update is at item 10 in this report:

https://westmidlandscombinedauthori...ansport-delivery-committee-3-october-2016.pdf

I suspect that an equivalent network of BRT routes could well work in Leeds - and indeed could well be implemented along the route proposed for the trolley-bus.

The key components would appear to be:

- articulated, high capacity buses (maybe battery-powered);
- concentration on cross-city routes along high demand corridors;
- relatively low maximum speed (~60kph), allowing passengers to travel predominantly standing;
- a substantial proportion of the route along reserved alignments.

I would then see services like the number 36 as offering a complementary BRT-type service - higher speed, premominantly seated - along longer routes from outlying suburban areas and satellite towns.

 

[Robertj21a]

First have just announced 284 new buses for Leeds !

 

[ivanhoe]

What Greater Manchester has had, and some other PTE areas haven't, is unity of purpose. The GM authorities have largely supported Metrolink despite differing political control and some benefitting from it more than others.

Up until now, I would not disagree. I think some towns such as Bury, Wigan and possibly Bolton may well be more vociferous about their transport requirements in the future. If GM elects Andy Burnham as mayor,his strongholds are in the outer rings of the the GM pie and perhaps things may change. Not everybody in GM wants to travel into Manchester and with First closing depots in Bury and Tameside, there may will be problems for these areas which can't be fixed with a new tram line. Merseytravel has similar issues. It's 'trainset' is mainly to get Wirral and Sefton passengers into the City Centre. ( apart from Hunts Cross and Kirkby lines. There are vast swathes of the City and Knowsley where Merseyrail will never go. However, Manchester has more influence than say Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield when extracting cash from Central Government for transport projects

 

[exile]

I'm often struck by the poor service and low ridership on many of the GM train routes. A number of stations have just one train every two hours. I'm not sure of the economics involved in conversion of some of these routes to Metrolink, but I fear the alternative may be closure of some stations or even entire routes.

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm often struck by the poor service and low ridership on many of the GM train routes. A number of stations have just one train every two hours. I'm not sure of the economics involved in conversion of some of these routes to Metrolink, but I fear the alternative may be closure of some stations or even entire routes.

What rail routes in GM only run every 2 hours?