What is the Covid-19 Exit Strategy of 'Zero Covid' countries such as Hong Kong?

[yorkie]

I was unsure where to put this given the spectrum of topics this situation can be linked to, so apologies if this thread isn't appropriate: Nigel Farage has come forward in support of Novak Djokovic in his current situation, to the point of actually travelling to Belgrade and publicising this:

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1480266426082545664

While I don't entirely agree with the covid border rules Australia have in place, the irony meter has absolutely shattered with Farage's behaviour here. I'd love to know what he might have been smoking before this latest publicity stunt.

It's not compatible with the views he supposedly represents on the topic (let's not go there!). It's purely because he knows that it will make him more popular. And he is right.

In other news...

Novak Djokovic: Judge orders immediate release of tennis star

Anthony Kelly quashes the decision to cancel the player's Australian visa on Covid vaccination grounds.

www.bbc.co.uk

1. Tennis star Novak Djokovic has won a court battle challenging the cancellation of his Australian visa, in a case that has drawn global attention
2. Djokovic’s lawyers argued the cancellation was unreasonable - the government conceded this, and judge Anthony Kelly also agreed
3. The judge ordered the immediate release of the Serbian tennis player and for the government to pay all costs
4. But the saga may not be over just yet - Australia's immigration minister is considering using his power to re-cancel the visa

Good!

The way some Governments and individuals has acted has been appalling; authoritarian measures now are even more inexplicable given what we now know about the virus and given the reduced severity of the Omicron variant.

I am absolutely pro vaccination but I also believe it is counter productive to make vaccinations mandatory and I oppose authoritarian measures by any Government.

I think there is a growing acceptance, even in Australia, that we cannot reach endemic equilibrium until the majority of the population get exposure to the actual virus, even if everyone is already vaccinated.

Vaccination is more about preparing your immune system for the inevitable invader, and massively reducing the probability of being a burden in the health service, than anything else.

Australia seem to be authoritarian on the matter of vaccines and movement of people but other than that now have a very relaxed view of living with the virus compared to previously.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The BBC have reported that Djokovic received a positive PCR test result while he was still in Serbia and then proceeded to attend a public event the next day, where he’s pictured on stage in close proximity with others. Regardless of whether he’s been treated unreasonably in Australia or not, this does suggest that he’s as much Covid-denier as anti-vaccine. What are people’s thoughts about this?

 

[35B]

The BBC have reported that Djokovic received a positive PCR test result while he was still in Serbia and then proceeded to attend a public event the next day, where he’s pictured on stage in close proximity with others. Regardless of whether he’s been treated unreasonably in Australia or not, this does suggest that he’s as much Covid-denier as anti-vaccine. What are people’s thoughts about this?

My thoughts are that if the Australian border authorities had acted reasonably on his arrival, they'd have had a reasonable case, but as their behaviour was so unreasonable that the government's lawyers threw the towel in before making their case, any attempt by the government to use their executive authority would seem vindictive.

As for his views, I think Nigel Farage's trip to Belgrade tells us all we need to know - by their friends shall ye know them.

 

[greyman42]

The BBC have reported that Djokovic received a positive PCR test result while he was still in Serbia and then proceeded to attend a public event the next day, where he’s pictured on stage in close proximity with others. Regardless of whether he’s been treated unreasonably in Australia or not, this does suggest that he’s as much Covid-denier as anti-vaccine. What are people’s thoughts about this?

I don't see any suggestion that he is a Covid denier. Perhaps he is just not terrified of the disease and has decided to live with it and get on with his life.
The people of Serbia may have a different view towards Covid than some hysterical people in the UK do.

 

[Djgr]

I don't see any suggestion that he is a Covid denier. Perhaps he is just not terrified of the disease and has decided to live with it and get on with his life.
The people of Serbia may have a different view towards Covid than some hysterical people in the UK do.

Maybe but that doesn't give him the right to go around infecting other people without their knowledge.

Clearly being able to hit a ball over a net doesn't stop someone being a first-class plonker.

 

[greyman42]

Maybe but that doesn't give him the right to go around infecting other people without their knowledge.

We don't know that he did.

 

[35B]

We don't know that he did.

Taking his declaration of a positive PCR test on 16th December, the evidence seems pretty robust that he was.

 

[43066]

Maybe but that doesn't give him the right to go around infecting other people without their knowledge.

The quid pro quo to that: do you believe you (or anyone else) has the right not to be infected by a highly transmissible airborne virus (noting here that vaccines reduce but don’t prevent transmission). How could that right ever be enforced?!

 

[greyman42]

Taking his declaration of a positive PCR test on 16th December, the evidence seems pretty robust that he was.

I have not seen any evidence that he infected anyone else.

 

[kristiang85]

Maybe in Serbia you don't have to self isolate if you test positive but have no symptoms? I might be wrong on that, just I'm unsure of the local situation there.

 

[greyman42]

Maybe in Serbia you don't have to self isolate if you test positive but have no symptoms? I might be wrong on that, just I'm unsure of the local situation there.

I don't know either, but different countries have different attitudes and theirs might be that if you feel fine then you get on with your life. That it what we should be doing in the UK right now.

 

[nw1]

This is pretty much my feelings on it, too.

Yes, quite. I don't have a problem with vaccines but I do have a problem with the scapegoating of the unvaccinated by politicians.

People like Macron and Morrison think that will make them popular but will it? Scapegoating of others sound dangerously close to far-right politics in my eyes, and certainly comes across as authoritarian.

 

[kristiang85]

Yes, quite. I don't have a problem with vaccines but I do have a problem with the scapegoating of the unvaccinated by politicians.

People like Macron and Morrison think that will make them popular but will it? Scapegoating of others sound dangerously close to far-right politics in my eyes.

Indeed. Do you remember the establishment figures in 2016 telling UK voters that they would be idiots to vote for Brexit? Or Clinton in the US calling Trump voters a 'basket of deplorables'?

That kind of language meant many fence-sitters just switched to the Brexit/Trump side, as populations do not like their right to an opinion being sneered at by politicians.

The likes of Blair, Macron, Trudeau, Morrison, etc. calling the unvaccinated such deregoratory names means that they will:
a) entrench these people even more against getting a COVID vaccination, and indeed might even make them distrust other vaccinations too, and
b) induce questions from those who were fine with vaccination, but are concerned at the level of state interference, and might ultimately be put off future COVID vaccination boosters or other measures.

And, all in all, it means a loss of votes for them in the long run. Yet they make the same mistake as the likes of Cameron and Clinton did of thinking the loudest voices on social media and mainstream media represent the voices of the entire population.

 

[Yew]

I was unsure where to put this given the spectrum of topics this situation can be linked to, so apologies if this thread isn't appropriate: Nigel Farage has come forward in support of Novak Djokovic in his current situation, to the point of actually travelling to Belgrade and publicising this:

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1480266426082545664

While I don't entirely agree with the covid border rules Australia have in place, the irony meter has absolutely shattered with Farage's behaviour here. I'd love to know what he might have been smoking before this latest publicity stunt.

So Farrage is siding against strong borders, and the Labour Party is advocating measures that disproportionately harm the working classes.


I can't see anyone predicting that three years ago...

Maybe but that doesn't give him the right to go around infecting other people without their knowledge.

Presumably he does, by the right of freedom of assembly?

 

[nw1]

So Farrage is siding against strong borders, and the Labour Party is advocating measures that disproportionately harm the working classes.

Quite. While I am of the view that the Australian government has been unduly harsh both to Djokovic and to any other non-vaccinated foreigner who may wish to enter the country, if Farage wants to believe in strong borders, that is what you get. You reap what you sow.

It does seem a particular hypocrisy (in a more general sense, unrelated to Covid issues) that a lot of so-called libertarians, including many of the pro-Brexit camp, are supporters of strong borders. IMO a true libertarian would adopt liberal and open policies towards immigration and would rail against oppressive border and immigration policies.

(And just for balance in view of my comment on pro-Brexit politicians, the EU claim to be pro-freedom-of-movement yet it only seems to apply to EU/Schengen members. That's not good either...)

 

[Djgr]

So Farrage is siding against strong borders, and the Labour Party is advocating measures that disproportionately harm the working classes.


I can't see anyone predicting that three years ago...


Presumably he does, by the right of freedom of assembly?

Depends on how you define right. Quite clearly though he is a "bad egg".

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I don't know either, but different countries have different attitudes and theirs might be that if you feel fine then you get on with your life. That it what we should be doing in the UK right now.

Serbian government is now looking into why Djokovic appears to have cheerfully attended events on two consecutive days after getting a positive PCR result, so it appears not to be the case.

 

[35B]

Serbian government is now looking into why Djokovic appears to have cheerfully attended events on two consecutive days after getting a positive PCR result, so it appears not to be the case.

I suspect there may a little diplomatic embarrassment there having gone full bore for support of their national hero.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Starting to look like the issue with his Visa was more than just the vaccine status too, including lying about travelling elsewhere within the 14 days before entering Australia.

 

[35B]

Starting to look like the issue with his Visa was more than just the vaccine status too, including lying about travelling elsewhere within the 14 days before entering Australia.

Indeed - though if what I read about the visa application is correct, it's not just what he said but also when he said it that would matter.

 

[Djgr]

Starting to look like the issue with his Visa was more than just the vaccine status too, including lying about travelling elsewhere within the 14 days before entering Australia.

Well you don't get to be world champion without being brutally selfish

 

[yorkie]

Novak Djokovic: Tennis star deported after losing Australia visa battle

The unvaccinated tennis star gets a flight out of Melbourne Airport after losing his visa challenge.

www.bbc.co.uk

Judges rejected his challenge to the government's decision to cancel the unvaccinated player's visa on "health and good order" grounds.

Given he has already been exposed to Sars-CoV-2 (likely Omicron, though I don't know if this has been checked or not) the health grounds argument is very weak.

If the argument is that he may be a burden on the health system, someone exposed to the virus at least once who is young fit and healthy is likely to be less of a burden than an elderly person who is even triple vaccinated.

If the argument is that he may be likely to transmit the virus, this argument is weak but could also be made against people who are double-jabbed; it's nonsensical as everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron sooner rather than later anyway.

It's political posturing and about imposing rules for the sake of rules, rather than being about anything scientific.

I am not sure this will convince anyone to get vaccinated or boosted; if anything it may have the opposite effect, as people see how little sense this makes and dig their heels in.

Meanwhile the Covid19 situation is:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) case numbers and statistics

This page provides updates about the current situation, latest case numbers and related information. It is updated every day by 9 pm AEST and reflects the previous 24 hours.

www.health.gov.au

There are currently 712,046 active cases (estimated) out of a population of 25.7 million. As they will have very little immunity from infection, and low proportions of people boosted, I think they are going to have very high case rates for many weeks yet, as the majority of the population is going to have to be exposed to Omicron before they can reach an equilibrium.

But this is the right time of year to have it, being Summer. Hopefully they can generate a lot of immunity before the onset of Winter.

 

[43096]

Novak Djokovic: Tennis star deported after losing Australia visa battle

The unvaccinated tennis star gets a flight out of Melbourne Airport after losing his visa challenge.

www.bbc.co.uk

Given he has already been exposed to Sars-CoV-2 (likely Omicron, though I don't know if this has been checked or not) the health grounds argument is very weak.

If the argument is that he may be a burden on the health system, someone exposed to the virus at least once who is young fit and healthy is likely to be less of a burden than an elderly person who is even triple vaccinated.

If the argument is that he may be likely to transmit the virus, this argument is weak but could also be made against people who are double-jabbed; it's nonsensical as everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron sooner rather than later anyway.

It's political posturing and about imposing rules for the sake of rules, rather than being about anything scientific.

I am not sure this will convince anyone to get vaccinated or boosted; if anything it may have the opposite effect, as people see how little sense this makes and dig their heels in.

But...

The rules are clear - you have to vaccinated to get in to Australia. He isn't. That's his choice and he has to live with the consequences. It's not about whether those rules are right or wrong, or if we like them or not.

There are also a number of issues with Djokovic's evidence:
- According to Der Spiegel the positive test result initially came back with a negative result, but subsequently changed when the QR code was re-scanned.
- There is significant doubt over the dates on the tests.
- Once you have a positive test, you know the rules: isolate. Why then did he do a face-to-face interview with a journalist, do a PR opportunity with children etc etc as he "didn't want to disappoint them"?
- His team accidently forgot to include his Spain visit on the visa form. Elite sports people don't leave stuff like that to chance.

It has to be said that it was very convenient that Djokovic tested positive when he did, just nicely timed for the Australian Open. It's highly convenient the test was in Serbia...

Putting it together it rather gives the impression he was trying to cheat the system and because he's world #1 thinks he should be able to get in regardless of the rules in place. Ask yourself this: if any of us turned up with the same paperwork and story, would we get in? Of course not, so neither should Djokovic.

Well done to the Aussies for (eventually) making the correct decision.

 

[yorkie]

But...

The rules are clear - you have to vaccinated to get in to Australia. He isn't. That's his choice and he has to live with the consequences. It's not about whether those rules are right or wrong, or if we like them or not.

But the rules don't make sense and the tennis association informed him he didn't have to be vaccinated if he had been infected; he followed the rules he was told to follow, in respect of vaccination status (notwithstanding any other issues or discrepancies which may have subsequently come to light).

There are also a number of issues with Djokovic's evidence:
- According to Der Spiegel the positive test result initially came back with a negative result, but subsequently changed when the QR code was re-scanned.
- There is significant doubt over the dates on the tests.
- Once you have a positive test, you know the rules: isolate. Why then did he do a face-to-face interview with a journalist, do a PR opportunity with children etc etc as he "didn't want to disappoint them"?

If there are question marks over the test, they could investigate that and also arrange for an antibody test, to detect if he has been exposed to the virus. If it was about public health, an antibody test would be an easy solution.

But as I think you may agree, it is not about actually public health, it's about rules and box ticking and posturing.

- His team accidently forgot to include his Spain visit on the visa form. Elite sports people don't leave stuff like that to chance.

It has to be said that it was very convenient that Djokovic tested positive when he did, just nicely timed for the Australian Open. It's highly convenient the test was in Serbia...

Putting it together it rather gives the impression he was trying to cheat the system and because he's world #1 thinks he should be able to get in regardless of the rules in place. Ask yourself this: if any of us turned up with the same paperwork and story, would we get in? Of course not, so neither should Djokovic.

Well done to the Aussies for (eventually) making the correct decision.

Maybe the system was cheated but if that is the allegation, it should be cited and an antibody test arranged.

If they had admitted deporting him was purely a rules based thing, then I have no particular objection to that. But what I do object to is the false and misleading claim it is about public health, without presenting any evidence to that effect.

Countries that previously adopted Zero Covid approaches are going to find it difficult to get into sync with the rest of the world; vaccinations are a huge part of that process, along with natural infections, but I do not think it is right to completely dismiss the immunity generated through a natural infection of the virus in someone who has not been vaccinated.

 

[TwoYellas]

There is also someone almost forgotten in all this. Female Czech player Renata Voracova - who had an adverse reaction after contracting covid therefore couldn't get the jab (although I think she plans on getting one).

She'd entered Australia and even played a match in an event. Before she was turfed out when the Djokovic saga began. It seems to me she was just collateral damage in a wider political game.

It seems to me from the outset she may have had a genuine exemption, more so than Djokovic. It also opens up other issues about celebrity and media attention and politicians trying to gain popularity. In other words, no one cares about the more 'ordinary person'.

Surely every case should be equally assessed. This is just my view from the outset. Anyone else have any views on this disparity.

 

[brad465]

Djokovic should take some consolation from the fact he had a more successful spell in Australia than our cricket team

More seriously this is a failure of communication between multiple groups who weren't thinking the same thing, and Morrison almost certainly being opportunistic. That said I think Djokovic didn't help himself by stating publicly he had an exemption before setting off, as that allowed Morrison et al. to jump onto it immediately.

 

[Djgr]

Always remember that things could be worse. You could be the one sitting next to Novak on the plane.

 

[Bantamzen]

There is also someone almost forgotten in all this. Female Czech player Renata Voracova - who had an adverse reaction after contracting covid therefore couldn't get the jab (although I think she plans on getting one).

She'd entered Australia and even played a match in an event. Before she was turfed out when the Djokovic saga began. It seems to me she was just collateral damage in a wider political game.

It seems to me from the outset she may have had a genuine exemption, more so than Djokovic. It also opens up other issues about celebrity and media attention and politicians trying to gain popularity. In other words, no one cares about the more 'ordinary person'.

Surely every case should be equally assessed. This is just my view from the outset. Anyone else have any views on this disparity.

Let's face it, this is a face saving exercise by the Australian government who are still angry that their zero-covid policies didn't work. Plain and simple.

Always remember that things could be worse. You could be the one sitting next to Novak on the plane.

Would you care to explain why that would be bad? He's had covid, his immune system is aware of it and capable of responding, so I'm curious as to why you think Novak, or indeed any other unvaccinated person would not be a desirable seatmate.

 

[Djgr]

Let's face it, this is a face saving exercise by the Australian government who are still angry that their zero-covid policies didn't work. Plain and simple.


Would you care to explain why that would be bad? He's had covid, his immune system is aware of it and capable of responding, so I'm curious as to why you think Novak, or indeed any other unvaccinated person would not be a desirable seatmate.

It's a joke mate. Had you not noticed that Novak is clown of the hour?!

 

[island]

Novak Djokovic: Tennis star deported after losing Australia visa battle

The unvaccinated tennis star gets a flight out of Melbourne Airport after losing his visa challenge.

www.bbc.co.uk

Given he has already been exposed to Sars-CoV-2 (likely Omicron, though I don't know if this has been checked or not) the health grounds argument is very weak.

If the argument is that he may be a burden on the health system, someone exposed to the virus at least once who is young fit and healthy is likely to be less of a burden than an elderly person who is even triple vaccinated.

If the argument is that he may be likely to transmit the virus, this argument is weak but could also be made against people who are double-jabbed; it's nonsensical as everyone is going to be exposed to Omicron sooner rather than later anyway.

I believe the cancellation of the visa was stated to be on the grounds that his presence in the country was contrary to Australia's interests in that it would tend to encourage people not to get vaccinated.