What is the difference between the class 350 subclasses?

[william.martin]

At the moment there are 4 different sub classes of class 350 however other than the fact that I know one of them has a third rail shoe what are the differences between the subclasses (externally/ mechanically)?

 

[AJDesiro]

Class 350/1s are dual voltage units, of which there are 30 units in total. The 350/1s entered service around 2005 under Central Trains/Silverlink, they currently have a 2+2 seating configuration, with tables and armrests, LCD screens, plugs/usbs, LNR grey seats and LNR green / grey grabhandles.


Class 350/2s are AC units of which there are 37. They were ordered by London Midland and entered service around 2008. They have a London Midland branded 2+3 seated interior, and they are the only 350s to not have plugs (in standard) or usbs, they’re very threadbare and some are starting to smell quite musty, I’d probably say most people would dislike these.


Class 350/3s are AC units of which there are 10 units, they were the last 350s to enter service under London Midland, and still retain their London Midland 2+2 interior, albeit with LCD screens and plugs/usbs added a few years ago, though these did have some plugs in standard prior to their WMT mods.


Class 350/4s are AC units if which there are 10 units. They were (AIUI) subleased from London Midland/WMT to TPE, before being transferred to WMT around 2020ish. They have a 2+2 interior, with plugs/usbs, LCD screens and LNR grey seats, though it’s worth noting these retain yellow grab handles from their TPE days. They used to have a 2+1 first class area, with similar seats to the 185s or old 444 first seats, but these were replaced with compin seats for consistency with the other 350s upon refurbishment. These units have two compact toilets, along with an accessible one, with two toilets (including the PRM one) in coach C, with the other in coach B, there is also a dedicated cycle storage space next to the coach C compact toilet, while the other 350s rely on the PRM space. All other subclasses have two toilets, one PRM in coach C and a compact one in coach B, which is also where first class is.


The 350/3s and /4s also have luggage racks in the driving carriages, originally the /3s had no luggage racks, but half of the racks in the /4s were moved into the /3s during the refurbishment, with the seats swapped around. While the 350/1s have luggage racks in the former guards office by first class.

(All images taken by me)

 

[507020]

Class 350/1s are dual voltage units…

Very informative. I hadn’t realised it was 350/3s that retain a London Midland 2+2 standard interior, not some random collection of units. Is there a plan for these to be refurbished?

All first class on 350s is now declassified, but I also believe the 350/2 and /3s have different first class seats to /1s and /4s and that /4s have a different number of toilets to the others but can’t remember the details.

Should the 450s and 360s really be treated as subclasses of the same unit as the 350s, since that is effectively what they are, with some of the identical vehicles ordered in the same batch have found their way into all 3 classes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The first class seats are all the same, but the refurbished ones seem to have received new cushions which make the Fainsa Sophia feel like an armchair.

 

[AJDesiro]

The first class seats are all the same, but the refurbished ones seem to have received new cushions which make the Fainsa Sophia feel like an armchair.

Indeed, the bases are rather intensely shaped.

Very informative. I hadn’t realised it was 350/3s that retain a London Midland 2+2 standard interior, not some random collection of units. Is there a plan for these to be refurbished?

All first class on 350s is now declassified, but I also believe the 350/2 and /3s have different first class seats to /1s and /4s and that /4s have a different number of toilets to the others but can’t remember the details.

There’s no plans for any more work to be done to the /3s at the moment, they’re only just starting to get slightly grotty, and only ever so slightly, the interiors have lasted amazingly, testament to the very good build quality of these units, they had a mini refurbishment a few years ago as I outlined above, but it would be nice if they at least changed the seat covers.

Yes, the /4s have 3 toilets vice 2 and also a dedicated cycle space, thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot! I’ve updated my original message.

 

[rheingold103]

I recall that the 350/1 max speed was increased from initial 100mph to 110mph for WCML Fast Line pathing. Were the 350/4 on TPE WCML North diagrams also 110mph for similar reason?
Are both /2 and /3 also now 110mph so that any sub-class can work the London-Crewe?

 

[Jturner98]

Does anyone know why some of the 350/2 units had a LNWR paint job/re vinyling?

 

[AJDesiro]

I recall that the 350/1 max speed was increased from initial 100mph to 110mph for WCML Fast Line pathing. Were the 350/4 on TPE WCML North diagrams also 110mph for similar reason?
Are both /2 and /3 also now 110mph so that any sub-class can work the London-Crewe?

/1s were upgraded to 110mph around 2012, the /3s and /4s were 110mph from new, and the /2s were upgraded around 2018.

 

[william.martin]

Class 350/1s are dual voltage units, of which there are 30 units in total. The 350/1s entered service around 2005 under Central Trains/Silverlink, they currently have a 2+2 seating configuration, with tables and armrests, LCD screens, plugs/usbs, LNR grey seats and LNR green / grey grabhandles.
View attachment 144073

Class 350/2s are AC units of which there are 37. They were ordered by London Midland and entered service around 2008. They have a London Midland branded 2+3 seated interior, and they are the only 350s to not have plugs (in standard) or usbs, they’re very threadbare and some are starting to smell quite musty, I’d probably say most people would dislike these.
View attachment 144071

Class 350/3s are AC units of which there are 10 units, they were the last 350s to enter service under London Midland, and still retain their London Midland 2+2 interior, albeit with LCD screens and plugs/usbs added a few years ago, though these did have some plugs in standard prior to their WMT mods.
View attachment 144072

Class 350/4s are AC units if which there are 10 units. They were (AIUI) subleased from London Midland/WMT to TPE, before being transferred to WMT around 2020ish. They have a 2+2 interior, with plugs/usbs, LCD screens and LNR grey seats, though it’s worth noting these retain yellow grab handles from their TPE days. They used to have a 2+1 first class area, with similar seats to the 185s or old 444 first seats, but these were replaced with compin seats for consistency with the other 350s upon refurbishment. These units have two compact toilets, along with an accessible one, with two toilets (including the PRM one) in coach C, with the other in coach B, there is also a dedicated cycle storage space next to the coach C compact toilet, while the other 350s rely on the PRM space. All other subclasses have two toilets, one PRM in coach C and a compact one in coach B, which is also where first class is.
View attachment 144074

The 350/3s and /4s also have luggage racks in the driving carriages, originally the /3s had no luggage racks, but half of the racks in the /4s were moved into the /3s during the refurbishment, with the seats swapped around. While the 350/1s have luggage racks in the former guards office by first class.

(All images taken by me)

Thank you for sharing this, as @507020 said I never realised it was specifically the class 350/2 and 350/3 that carried the old interior.
Is it true that one of the subclasses is limited to 100 MPH not 110 MPH?

 

[DarloRich]

Does anyone know why some of the 350/2 units had a LNWR paint job/re vinyling?

I assume bodywork/paint condition.

they’re very threadbare and some are starting to smell quite musty, I’d probably say most people would dislike these.

they are quite grotty now. They WERE useful in shifting lots of people in them olden days when we had to commute to London everyday!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know why some of the 350/2 units had a LNWR paint job/re vinyling?

Which unit(s)? I've not seen a /2 in full LNR livery, only the vinylled up LM livery.

they are quite grotty now. They WERE useful in shifting lots of people in them olden days when we had to commute to London everyday!

They were never that useful because people on the south WCML were reluctant to take the middle seat, and because of the generous spacing of the bays of 6 they actually have fewer rows than the 2+2 units (though not by much). Narrow 2+2 (as the 319s mostly are) would have been a far better people shifter in those days - you just have to see a 700 loading in central London in the evening peak to see that in action. The 3+2 730 layout was about as bad as it could possibly be, and never made any sense bar box ticking on the number of seats theoretically provided.

 

[Jturner98]

Which unit(s)? I've not seen a /2 in full LNR livery, only the vinylled up LM livery.



They were never that useful because people on the south WCML were reluctant to take the middle seat, and because of the generous spacing of the bays of 6 they actually have fewer rows than the 2+2 units (though not by much). Narrow 2+2 (as the 319s mostly are) would have been a far better people shifter in those days - you just have to see a 700 loading in central London in the evening peak to see that in action. The 3+2 730 layout was about as bad as it could possibly be, and never made any sense bar box ticking on the number of seats theoretically provided.

Yeah it’s the vinyled /2s I was talking about. Just wondered why some were done and not others when they are due to leave

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah it’s the vinyled /2s I was talking about. Just wondered why some were done and not others when they are due to leave

All the /2s have been vinylled into a rather rubbish-looking hybrid livery.

 

[CR165022]

All the /2s have been vinylled into a rather rubbish-looking hybrid livery.

No, they never got round to doing them all, there's still quite a few out in London Midland livery

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they never got round to doing them all, there's still quite a few out in London Midland livery

I've not seen one in full LM colours for a long time, fairly sure they have all had the hybrid, which is basically a sticker over the London Midland branding and dark green diagonal vinyls at the ends.

None, to my knowledge, have had the full "Trebor Mints" treatment. I've certainly not seen one like that.

 

[prod_pep]

As @CR165022 says, quite a few 350/2s still have London Midland livery and never received the so-called hybrid.

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI as a point of detail the 350/4s were not subleased from LM to TPE, they were ordered by LM on behalf of TPE and the legal term used at the time was that their contract was novated to TPE.

 

[driver9000]

There's a few "under the bonnet" differences among the 350 fleet. It's been a few years since I signed them but from memory the /3 and /4 have a fire system covering the Traction Converters and Auxiliary Converters fitted but the earlier /1 and /2 don't, the /3 and /4 have the new TPWS 4 system fitted, the /4 has Speed set but the rest don't, on the /1 AC has to be selected after switching the batteries on, as built the /4 had a small catering stand in the TOCL vehicle and an extra toilet, the /4 carried a BSI adaptor while the others carried a Tightlock adaptor. There's probably more that I've forgotten too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a few "under the bonnet" differences among the 350 fleet. It's been a few years since I signed them but from memory the /3 and /4 have a fire system covering the Traction Converters and Auxiliary Converters fitted but the earlier /1 and /2 don't, the /3 and /4 have the new TPWS 4 system fitted, the /4 has Speed set but the rest don't, on the /1 AC has to be selected after switching the batteries on, as built the /4 had a small catering stand in the TOCL vehicle and an extra toilet, the /4 carried a BSI adaptor while the others carried a Tightlock adaptor. There's probably more that I've forgotten too.

/1s as built had a guard's office in one of the middle coaches, the partitions are still there but it's been opened out and had a luggage rack plonked in it. The reason for this is that they were originally going to be 450s for SWR, and unlike almost every other TOC SWR guards don't (or didn't) work from the back cab.

 

[Russel]

It's probably been asked on here before, but why wasn't the TM's office replaced with seating?

/1s as built had a guard's office in one of the middle coaches, the partitions are still there but it's been opened out and had a luggage rack plonked in it. The reason for this is that they were originally going to be 450s for SWR, and unlike almost every other TOC SWR guards don't (or didn't) work from the back cab.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's probably been asked on here before, but why wasn't the TM's office replaced with seating?

Because more luggage space was required, so why not put it there? You could probably have crammed in one bay of four instead, though, 350/2s have that in that same space.

 

[janahan]

/1s as built had a guard's office in one of the middle coaches, the partitions are still there but it's been opened out and had a luggage rack plonked in it. The reason for this is that they were originally going to be 450s for SWR, and unlike almost every other TOC SWR guards don't (or didn't) work from the back cab.

Sorry to be pedantic, but they were ordered for SWT and that may have been a policy at the time for more longer distance trains such as the 442 and some slam doors. I noticed in latter days there were not used as often (especially on metro and frequent stop routes) and indeed were removed from some 450s well before the move to SWR (the HC class)

 

[ewanh723]

are there any plans to fit the /3's with LNR interiors or will they stay LM for now?

 

[swt_passenger]

Because more luggage space was required, so why not put it there? You could probably have crammed in one bay of four instead, though, 350/2s have that in that same space.

I think it also saved the cost of interior lining components. As we know, the removal of the guards office and relocation of first on the SWT/SWR trains was done properly with no evidence now that the original partitions and offices were ever there. You get what you pay for.

 

[AJDesiro]

are there any plans to fit the /3's with LNR interiors or will they stay LM for now?

It seems the first one has been refurbished: https://twitter.com/inv_pete/status/1711605661442695562?s=46&t=6i1aBPVcMtBcOm-7YL6dVA

Attached images are of the ex-first class area and are not mine, they are from the tweet linked above.

 

[Mikey C]

In general, are the 350/2s mainly just used on the stopping services to Tring or MK, or could you end with one on the Birmingham or Liverpool runs?

 

[JonathanH]

In general, are the 350/2s mainly just used on the stopping services to Tring or MK, or could you end with one on the Birmingham or Liverpool runs?

Plenty of 350/2s found on Liverpool and Birmingham runs. A 350/2 with another type of 350 on a Euston to Crewe or Birmingham service certainly isn't uncommon.

 

[Russel]

In general, are the 350/2s mainly just used on the stopping services to Tring or MK, or could you end with one on the Birmingham or Liverpool runs?

Not sure what the official LNWR stance on unit allocation is, but from plenty of experience of using the LNWR WCML services, its basically any subclass on any route.

 

[D365]

There's a few "under the bonnet" differences among the 350 fleet. It's been a few years since I signed them but from memory the /3 and /4 have a fire system covering the Traction Converters and Auxiliary Converters fitted but the earlier /1 and /2 don't, the /3 and /4 have the new TPWS 4 system fitted, the /4 has Speed set but the rest don't, on the /1 AC has to be selected after switching the batteries on, as built the /4 had a small catering stand in the TOCL vehicle and an extra toilet, the /4 carried a BSI adaptor while the others carried a Tightlock adaptor. There's probably more that I've forgotten too.

Always the way when comparing vehicle ’lots’!

 

[172007]

350/2's are to gonoff lease once 730's are introduced hence why they have been uncared for. Or that was the plan.

The /2's will then join the assortment of modern AC electrics with no home along with the MK5A carriages.

Interesting how some threads arrive again like a phoenix.