What procedures are followed when a person is hit by a train?

[ta-toget]

I consider myself very lucky to have had a very good instructor driver and we talked through a lot of "what if?" scenarios while I was doing my hours, including train fire and fatality. This meant that I'd already formulated a number of plans in my own mind about what I would/wouldn't do in certain situations, including not getting out to the cab to go back and look if I ever ran someone over. I don't know if this was something he was told he should do or whether it was something he just did off his own initiative, but I'm very grateful to him for this.

I'm not so sure about the calm and measured approach to communication, though. Clearly I do agree that you have to make sure that you give the correct information in a clear manner in order that the cavalry can be dispatched, but you're likely to be in shock and therefore I see no harm in being a bit shambolic. Let me explain.

I had a near miss at a crossing with a berk with earphones on his head. Only by ducking back through the gate at the last instant did he manage to save his own life, because I was not going to be able to stop and no amount of blasting the horn was going to get past whatever sh*te he was blaring into his skull. Mindful of how bad my previous emergency call had been I made sure to take a deep breath and do this one right, and so I calmly and clearly called it in. I can only assume that doing this had given the impression to the signaller that I was OK because it never got passed on to the TOC control because I never got a welfare check. In fact, when I did see a manager on a platform about an hour or so later who asked how I was, when I told him about the near miss it was clear from his face that he hadn't got a clue what I was talking about.

Presumably that particular issue that you mention could have been solved by reporting all such incidents to person appropriate for dealing with your welfare, regardless of whether you sound like your talking about the weather or a tragedy that's unfolded before you. Just because people sound calm, doesn't mean they are. I mean, even if you ask someone how they are, the first answer you get is normally "Fine", whether that's the case or not.

Do you know if statistics on near misses of that type are collated? I would have thought that would be another advantage of always passing these things on…

 

[Highlandspring]

Do you know if statistics on near misses of that type are collated?

They are recorded by Network Rail.

 

[O L Leigh]

Presumably that particular issue that you mention could have been solved by reporting all such incidents to person appropriate for dealing with your welfare, regardless of whether you sound like your talking about the weather or a tragedy that's unfolded before you. Just because people sound calm, doesn't mean they are. I mean, even if you ask someone how they are, the first answer you get is normally "Fine", whether that's the case or not.

Of course. And in that instance the person I had to report this to was the signaller, which I did.

I believe that the procedures have since been altered and tightened up such that signallers will now report anything that could be a concern regarding driver welfare to the TOC control and arrangements made to have the driver checked at the first available opportunity. This now seems to include relatively unconcerning incidents like wrong routeing and signal reversions.

 

[LowLevel]

It’s something I’ve always considered to be lacking in the training of operational staff on the railway. I have always thought we should receive some kind of ‘crisis’ training in how to manage serious incidents (derailment, collision, fire on train, fatalities etc).
As it stands the focus tends to purely focus on the rule book instructions and communication relevant to an incident and doesn’t really go into the psychological side of how you may react and methods of controlling yourself.
One thing I think is important to focus on when communicating in an emergency is speaking deliberately slowly and as calmly as possible.
Another tip I have is to imagine scenarios in your head and think about ‘what would I do if’.... Another good thing about this is it can help you keep your route knowledge fresh (what’s the name of the crossing I’ve just hit the imaginary car on? What line am I on? Which two identifiable landmarks am I between? Who’s the controlling Signaller?)

My TOC has taken to hiring the Great Central Railway heritage railway for the day (so a realistic double track railway with functional signalling) with a DMU and takes trainee drivers and guards over there for the day.

They visit and have a short go at operating the signalbox at Loughborough, have a walk round and look at various features and equipment up close and they also bring a load of managers/instructors along to pretend to be passengers and other roles.

The trainee guards work the train under supervision of the GCR guard and they set up emergency situations (including using a smoke machine) such as sick passengers, lay and set off detonators with the train, practice an evacuation on to the track and set up irregularities that they can watch happen (such as dispatch incidents - incorrect dispatch procedures, people heading toward a train that's about to depart, platform dispatchers trying to give them the tip on a red signal and so on) so that they have an inkling on what to look out for when they're out on the network.

It's not a perfect solution but it's a pretty good day for them to do things you just can't practice on the national network and I wish it was something I'd done in my guard's training.

 

[Jack in England]

Some members may find this Twitter thread useful, it concerns the aftermath of the fatality at Winchester last night from the perception of a train stranded a couple of miles south of the incident.

https://twitter.com/RexKram55112378/status/1390395585195388932

What a load of nonsense that twitter feed was... I was at Winchester Station and seen the man jump he actually jumped before the train got to him if that makes sense and the train was stopping at Winchester so doing maybe 20-30 mph the train just knocked him down so no horrible mess and no mass damage to the train

1) There were 60-70 passengers on that train the busiest on that route since Covid restrictions have eased off

2) The train was on the down from London nowhere near Shawford it hit the person in the station about 3 coaches on the platform and 7 off

3) Train had 10 coaches not 12

 

[AlphaHotel]

My dad asked me if I've seen many dead people. So, I started to list them (in abstract and unidentifiable). He then asked me to stop part way through.

Something I used to get, but don't now is "what was the worst thing you've seen?". Sometimes that questions comes from people as genuine curiosity about that side of life, others it is just morbid pleasure. I would say that the incident in my earlier post is by far the most gruesome I've seen, and with any luck the most gruesome I will ever see.

I guess in a sense, maybe he's thinking will be maybe if some are playing on your mind and you're able to talk to him about it then maybe it would relive you of the pressure, then again it could have been the latter options you listed.

I've not read through all three pages, but it's nice to hear that so many of you who have been in that dark place have manged to come back form it and post on this topic. It's also pleasing to see the thread is still running and the admin have not removed it.

Personally, I've had depression for years... and on more than one occasion have found myself standing on a platform at 2am waiting for a train....how I got there I can't remember... but even though at the time I felt worthless and had no way out, and what point there was with continuing my existence, something stopped me stepping off that platform when the freight train came through... For some reason I thought of the impacted my action would have on the drivers life... why, when you are in that frame of mind that you are so focused on yourself and your own shortcomings you would think of another person I have no idea.....

There is of course the impact it can have on others who witness these things. My wife was at Stevenage a few months back when someone jumped in front of a train from the platform as it passed through. Thankfully she didn't see the resulting mess, but the sound of the impact still haunts her to this day.

To all those in the industry who have contributed to this thread, I thank you. It's been in interesting insight to what is really a common occurrence, and to the drivers who have detailed personal instances and experiences my thoughts are with you - regardless of how hard you are, there will be some impact on your life.

I posted just because I was curious about it and what happened when it happened, I didnt think it would get much traction (no pun intended...or..maybe) but im also glad people here feel comfortable enough to share such information with other guys and gals, things that would seem, unspeakable with people that just wouldn't understand, maybe people can use this, if they run into a situation where it happens and sees that people have had the same expirance, as well as in a mental health side of things, its beneficial to all, seeing people can get it off their chests, also for future employees on the railway like myself can also benefit, kudos to admins for allowing it to stay up. Also thanks everyone else for putting across personal situations.

 

[Oldman22]

I read these posts with interest and was impressed by the sincerity and wisdom of many of the posts. I had a long term career in operations with British Rail and worked as a station manager on the Southern Region and in Area Management on the LMR before moving to the Western Region. During that time I was involved with nineteen fatalities and personally attended seventeen separate incidents mainly in the 1970s and early 1980s. All but one, a multi-fatality incident when three staff were killed by a light engine when painting a bridge adjacent to my station were suicides although not necessarily recorded as such at inquests. As a station manager, three weeks into my first appointment, dealing with three people dead on the track, I had received no training on what to do apart from familiarity with the General Appendix instructions which tried to clarify the railway representative's relationship with the police at such an event. The exact wording escapes me now but the critical section said "Unless foul play is suspected ..." and then went on to give authority to the railway staff to clear the line. On this occasion I did just that before the civil police arrived and assisted by a leading railman physically lifted the bodies clear onto the platform. I declared the line open for traffic again is just 25 minutes, something I suggest would be impossible now. As a relatively young man at the time I think I took this in my stride until some three hours later when in my office compiling the accident reports I was called by my staff to attend to a lady who was "looking for her husband who was not home yet" and "had been painting a bridge at my station". I grew up very quickly as I responded to her. I had made arrangements for the employer of the dead staff to take on responsibility to advise the relatives but apparently this lady had been out all day and not contactable. Looking back I should have shown more concern for the leading railman who assisted me but both of us stayed on duty.

Later on at different locations I picked up bodies myself again with assistance from station staff or sometimes from movements inspectors who had attended with me. The real difficulty came when the Civil Police were on the scene first and were unwilling to allow the body to be removed. At one station I was threatened with arrest if I moved the body and despite interventions through the Control and then a senior manager direct to Police HQ, authority was not given. Eventually a station staff member and I working together did clear the line and happily the threat of arrest was not implemented although the senior police officer on site watched us lift the body clear.

Throughout these many experiences there was never any counselling or guidance offered to me or other railway staff involved and often little thanks either. Often the only reaction from senior officers was "why did it take you so long to clear the line?" Again with hindsight I now realise that there was a cultural theme running throughout the industry that it would somehow have been weak to have shown or admitted to any distress by being involved in these incidents and I was as guilty as anyone in perpetuating this attitude. Train drivers, for whom these incidents obviously had a much more serious impact of their lives, did have some support but were often encouraged to come back to work before they were ready. At many of the incidents, including the triple fatality I mentioned earlier, I was the first railway person that they spoke to after the event, apart perhaps from their guard, and I was invariably impressed by their dignity, professionalism and competence in that initial discussion. I did, of course, always put their welfare first and arrange relief but it became obvious to me that shock and distress often takes some time to show itself.

Reading the posts above it is good to see that today much more account is taken of the effect that these sorts of incidents on everyone involved and that processes to manage them involve trained and dedicated staff who have been equipped to deal with them. The downside is that incients now seem to take a very long time to clear up.

Personally I do not think I was badly affected mentally by these experiences but I know of colleagues who had to manage events where children were involved were quite deeply shocked and I am not sure how well I would have coped with that situation. In fact, the only occasion I went home and did not enjoy my tea, was when I found a dog laying alongside the conductor rail having tried to bite it when he had made electrical contact with it. I had to club the dog to death with a brake stick and then remove the body - I said no to my evening meal that night! That incident never even made the daily incident log.

 

[LAX54]

As mentioned in other replies above there is nothing to prevent the traincrew leaving the train but when a person struck is reported (via the signaller) to Network Rail operations control, a Mobile Operations Manager will immediately be tasked to attend the scene and act as 'Rail Incident Officer'. The RIO is the liaison between the rail industry and the emergency services and is responsible for managing the scene to coordinate all the activities to get body removed and restore normal working as quickly as possible. All communication between site and control goes through the RIO. A few areas of the country have Emergency Intervention Units which places the Network Rail MOM (actually a separate but similar grade termed 'Mobile Incident Officer' or MIO) in a British Transport Police vehicle so they can respond on blue lights and sirens.

The target to get trains running again is 90 mins, however depending on circumstances it can take a lot longer, and if declared suspicious and forensics are called, then we are talking hours sometimes, they will not be rushed.
When the GSM-R Emergency call sounds in the signalbox, in a PSB /IECC the alert is the same as the Star Trek Red Alert, for a few minutes the whole Ops Floor stops what they are doing, you can normally hear a pin drop !
Whilst staff on site Driver / MOM / Guard etc have always been asked how they are and feel, it's only in recent years that the Signalman has been asked how he/she feels, mostly they are fine, but you do get the odd incident that has a bad effect on them.

 

[L401CJF]

I'd just like to give a quick thank you to everybody who has shared their experiences, whether being a rail worker affected or being in that dark place yourself, this thread has been a real eye opener and a very interesting read on an important but little talked about topic.

To anybody who is struggling, I hope you find the help you need, there are people to talk to and it can only get better.

 

[Highlandspring]

I declared the line open for traffic again is just 25 minutes, something I suggest would be impossible now.

...

Reading the posts above it is good to see that today much more account is taken of the effect that these sorts of incidents on everyone involved and that processes to manage them involve trained and dedicated staff who have been equipped to deal with them. The downside is that incidents now seem to take a very long time to clear up.

The quickest I’ve seen it done is 41 minutes from REC call to normal working a couple of years ago. That was only possible because it wasn’t suspicious, the MOM, relief driver and DTM were nearby, the emergency services were really on the ball, the body was more or less intact and the train was undamaged.

 

[AntoniC]

I'd just like to give a quick thank you to everybody who has shared their experiences, whether being a rail worker affected or being in that dark place yourself, this thread has been a real eye opener and a very interesting read on an important but little talked about topic.

To anybody who is struggling, I hope you find the help you need, there are people to talk to and it can only get better.

Thank you,
I am now in a position where I am comfortable to talk about my feelings.

 

[DDB]

One of my other interests is theatre and I regularly go up to the Edinburgh fringe. Metal health has been a popular topic for shows in recent years and I was watching one a couple of years ago and it suddenly stopped in the middle and a member of the cast turned to the audience and said something along the lines off "Why have you chosen to come and see a show about mental health? Is it because you are worried about yours? There is help out there for you." I found that comment very useful as it gave me the push I needed to see a doctor. So in a similar vein I'd like to say to the people reading this thread, if you are interested in this thread because you have worries yourself, there is help out there.

 

[TheEdge]

You say your emergency call was a shambles. But in that situation would it be any other way for anyone?

Are signallers given this sort of training to help them in this situationon?

I had a very near miss not that long ago with a group of teenagers. What made it worse for me is it wasn't them pratting around, they simply crossed on a crossing on a corner. Two jumped back off the crossing, one jumped forward but the fourth took a moment to think and came very close to getting a 755 to the face. Even though it was on a route I know well and can rattle off the crossings and locations with ease I could barely tell the signaller where I was. I just remember the signaller taking control of the call with a calming yet firm "just tell me what's happened driver and then we can work out where you are". That humanity in a situation where we are trained to be very robotic really helped calm me right down. I still don't like the crossing in question...

I consider myself very lucky to have had a very good instructor driver and we talked through a lot of "what if?" scenarios while I was doing my hours, including train fire and fatality. This meant that I'd already formulated a number of plans in my own mind about what I would/wouldn't do in certain situations, including not getting out to the cab to go back and look if I ever ran someone over. I don't know if this was something he was told he should do or whether it was something he just did off his own initiative, but I'm very grateful to him for this.

I spent so long as a conductor (and still do as a driver) working through awful situations in my head. What do I do, who do I call, how do I deal with it? It served me very well when I found myself in the Hockham Crossing collision in 2016 and could actually put that into practice and despite being a chubby shy lad in my mid twenties managed to take some semblence of control of a situation where I had a good hundred or so people who all found themselves in quite a crappy situation. Just because I'd worked it through in my head.

I still made a total hash of the emergency call though. GSMR in the driver's cab broken (I was in the saloon right behind the leading cab) so it's was a shaken call to control on my mobile with just "My name, conductor on 1K77, we've crashed into a tractor, erm, near Eccles Road, here's the driver." Not how it was taught

 

[Red Devil]

Had a fatality myself. I echo a few previous comments on here. Don't know what the clean up gang get paid but whatever it is it's not enough.

 

[Flange Squeal]

What a load of nonsense that twitter feed was... I was at Winchester Station and seen the man jump he actually jumped before the train got to him if that makes sense and the train was stopping at Winchester so doing maybe 20-30 mph the train just knocked him down so no horrible mess and no mass damage to the train

1) There were 60-70 passengers on that train the busiest on that route since Covid restrictions have eased off

2) The train was on the down from London nowhere near Shawford it hit the person in the station about 3 coaches on the platform and 7 off

3) Train had 10 coaches not 12

I think you have misunderstood it. It is talking primarily from the perspective of a guard on an Up train stranded elsewhere as a result of the incident, and how that was dealt with - not the incident train itself.

 

[Dave W]

By coincidence this article popped up on the Beeb website this morning, which has a short section about halfway through about the driver's own experience.

'Talk to me': A train driver asking men to open up

A tragedy inspired Scotland's only woman freight train driver to get men talking about mental health.

www.bbc.co.uk

She'd always known something like this could happen - drivers were warned about it in their training and would discuss it among themselves. According to Network Rail, 4.4% of suicides in Great Britain take place on the railways; there were 283 lives lost this way in 2019-20. But nothing could have prepared Heather for the reality of it actually happening to her. [continues]

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Going slightly off-topic, I've just finished reading a booked called Parallel Lines by Ian Marchant, in which he describes a dalliance with being a train enthusiast for a period of several months in the early 2000s. One incident he includes is being on a train which is allowed to crawl past the aftermath of a suicide, all apparently with no attempt to hide what had happened from the travelling public.
I would have thought that by the date he is writing about, the practice of trains being allowed to pass suicides at all had long ceased but even in those days I would have thought that the body would have been decently covered up. (I do remember it happening at Canley level crossing near Coventry in the early 1980s, and that certainly was the case.)
It was though the final chaotic days of Railtrack, so I suppose anything is possible.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think there’s maybe a bit of artistic licence applied there, certainly any visible body parts would be covered before a movement past them was authorised. As you say it has been the practice for decades now and it’s something that is always taken seriously. Even in Railtrack days the basics were adhered to (operating standards were, arguably, higher then than now in some respects)

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I think there’s maybe a oit of artistic licence applied there, certainly any visible body parts would be covered before a movement past them was authorised. As you say it has been the practice for decades now and it’s something that is always taken seriously.

It wouldn't be the first time that a book author has used a bit of 'artistic licence'. A few years ago I read a travelogue in which the writer claimed to have witnessed that hoary old urban myth of a goat being tethered to a level crossing barrier and being hung when it was raised.

 

[CAF397]

The quickest I’ve seen it done is 41 minutes from REC call to normal working a couple of years ago. That was only possible because it wasn’t suspicious, the MOM, relief driver and DTM were nearby, the emergency services were really on the ball, the body was more or less intact and the train was undamaged.

Wasn't there a day a few years ago on the South West Trains network where there was a fatality somewhere, the lines were blocked and power isolated. The usual personnel attended and it was dealt with pretty standard.

Normal working was authorised and literally within the hour at a station or two away on the same line there was a 2nd fatality. I'm sure it was sooner because the staff on site at the 1st one went straight to the 2nd one.

When I read that report I was utterly shocked.

 

[Dr_Paul]

This is a very instructive and sobering thread, as the number of suicides on the railways is quite high, and I really can't imagine what it must be like emotionally for the railway staff involved, from the driver through to those dealing with the aftermath, whether the fatality is the result of a deliberate act or an accident. I usually have a look at the National Rail delay page, and it seems that almost every day there is an instance of disruption somewhere because of someone hit by a train.

 

[matchmaker]

You jest but I once dealt with a fatality on Christmas day.



It is the same sound effect. I've always wondered whether they have to pay an annual royalty or if it was just a one off fee to a sound effects library. The local leisure pool near me also uses it before the wave machine starts, which was a bit disconcerting the first time I heard it.

Alarm signals never leave you. I used to work for HM Coastguard as an Auxiliary Coastguard and one of my duties was as a radio operator in an Operations Room. Medium frequency marine radiotelephone has an auto-alarm on the distress, safety and calling channel of 2182kHz. This is a two-tone signal which is designed to lift the mute on watchkeeping receivers. If you need to use this you are in big, big trouble!

The first time I heard it was at 3am on a Sunday morning. It gave me a real fright!

 

[Gloster]

Even in my days on the railway in the late 1970s and 1980s, you would not have let a train pass a body until the deceased (or any recognisable remains) had been covered by a tarpaulin or sheet.

Nervous readers stop here. At one place that I worked there was a story from a ‘few years ago’ (on the railway that could be half-a-century before) about an old chap who used to walk along the railway as a short cut on the way back from the pub on a Saturday night as there weren’t any trains. One night there was and it reduced him to component parts. A few months later the PW were cutting back the lineside growth and found a shoe. Complete with the remains of a foot.

 

[Highlandspring]

Wasn't there a day a few years ago on the South West Trains network where there was a fatality somewhere, the lines were blocked and power isolated. The usual personnel attended and it was dealt with pretty standard.

Normal working was authorised and literally within the hour at a station or two away on the same line there was a 2nd fatality. I'm sure it was sooner because the staff on site at the 1st one went straight to the 2nd one.

When I read that report I was utterly shocked.

Yes it’s not unheard of in Control to have multiple fatalities in a day. I know a MOM who went to two in a shift a few hours apart.

Nervous readers stop here. At one place that I worked there was a story from a ‘few years ago’ (on the railway that could be half-a-century before) about an old chap who used to walk along the railway as a short cut on the way back from the pub on a Saturday night as there weren’t any trains. One night there was and it reduced him to component parts. A few months later the PW were cutting back the lineside growth and found a shoe. Complete with the remains of a foot.

I could tell a few similar stories but I’d probably better not. On a related note I’ve heard a few sad tales about what was found when they did a program of ballast cleaning around Lockerbie about 1989 or 1990, though obviously that was debris and personal belongings rather than human remains.

 

[malc-c]

Thank you,
I am now in a position where I am comfortable to talk about my feelings.

That's good to hear.

I had counselling.. on a one to one basis after the events I mentioned... Being able to open up to strangers and talk is a good practice. I too are comfortable "admitting" I have a mental health condition, and how it affects me. Posting on several forums that have a mental health issue thread running, listing my experiences, and detailing the signs to look out for because quite often people don't recognise them before its too late, and it is good therapy .

On the main subject, I watched one of Don Coffey's recent videos and there was a young kid of around 3-4 years old running along the platform to his parents as the train pulled in, and Don commented that it always puts you on high alert and makes for an anxious moment. I know a lot of people think driving a train must be a simple job, and is rewarded by high salaries, but seeing what's involved through his videos, and the stresses these sorts of instances can have makes you realise it's very demanding. There are not that may jobs were on most days there could be a high risk of going to work and being involved in a fatality. It certainly makes me as someone not connected to the railway industry respect all the drivers, BTPO's, MOM's and first responders that sadly get involved in these instances.

It's been mentioned several times in this thread, respect also goes to the admin and moderators of the forum. This is a touchy and sensitive subject, and yet the thread remains open for which we thank them.

 

[AntoniC]

That's good to hear.

I had counselling.. on a one to one basis after the events I mentioned... Being able to open up to strangers and talk is a good practice. I too are comfortable "admitting" I have a mental health condition, and how it affects me. Posting on several forums that have a mental health issue thread running, listing my experiences, and detailing the signs to look out for because quite often people don't recognise them before its too late, and it is good therapy .

On the main subject, I watched one of Don Coffey's recent videos and there was a young kid of around 3-4 years old running along the platform to his parents as the train pulled in, and Don commented that it always puts you on high alert and makes for an anxious moment. I know a lot of people think driving a train must be a simple job, and is rewarded by high salaries, but seeing what's involved through his videos, and the stresses these sorts of instances can have makes you realise it's very demanding. There are not that may jobs were on most days there could be a high risk of going to work and being involved in a fatality. It certainly makes me as someone not connected to the railway industry respect all the drivers, BTPO's, MOM's and first responders that sadly get involved in these instances.

It's been mentioned several times in this thread, respect also goes to the admin and moderators of the forum. This is a touchy and sensitive subject, and yet the thread remains open for which we thank them.

Thanks,
I talk about mental health issues with my colleagues when we have mental health awareness issues at work - its more impactful to hear about it from a colleague who had an issue than to have listen to someone they don`t know talk to them.
I give them the unvarnished truth about what caused the issue and the impact on me - the first time I discussed it they were shocked that such an outgoing and happy person that I am know could get into such a state.
I always say that I am not embarrased to talk about it , and like yourself I found talking about it to a professional helped me immensely.
Here is to a happy future for us both !

 

[malc-c]

Here is to a happy future for us both !

I'll drink to that

 

[bobslack1982]

A friend who works as a driver said that it was drilled into him and his colleagues while training that they would kill someone and that it was something they needed to come to terms with, which seemed a pretty horrific way of approaching the subject.

 

[TheEdge]

A friend who works as a driver said that it was drilled into him and his colleagues while training that they would kill someone and that it was something they needed to come to terms with, which seemed a pretty horrific way of approaching the subject.

I mean it's no way a guaranteed thing but it's made clear during training that it's a thing that happens depressingly regularly and it's quite possible it could happen to you.

 

[ComUtoR]

A friend who works as a driver said that it was drilled into him and his colleagues while training that they would kill someone and that it was something they needed to come to terms with, which seemed a pretty horrific way of approaching the subject.

My TOC has briefed and discussed suicides and fatalities on numerous occasions. They have even gone as far as showing the CCTV of a rather gruesome incident.

It is a very delicate subject but the reality can be quite shocking. 'Forewarned is forearmed' so to speak but essentially training people to deal with the potential outcomes and having full and frank discussions can be helpful in the long term.