What procedures are followed when a person is hit by a train?

[GB]

A friend who works as a driver said that it was drilled into him and his colleagues while training that they would kill someone and that it was something they needed to come to terms with, which seemed a pretty horrific way of approaching the subject.

(my bold)

I would hope that the wording they used was better than that!

 

[Stigy]

(my bold)

I would hope that the wording they used was better than that!

It’s also not true. Loads of drivers have served their whole career without “killing someone”. Some are just more unlucky then others I guess?

 

[O L Leigh]

On the main subject, I watched one of Don Coffey's recent videos and there was a young kid of around 3-4 years old running along the platform to his parents as the train pulled in, and Don commented that it always puts you on high alert and makes for an anxious moment. I know a lot of people think driving a train must be a simple job, and is rewarded by high salaries, but seeing what's involved through his videos, and the stresses these sorts of instances can have makes you realise it's very demanding. There are not that may jobs were on most days there could be a high risk of going to work and being involved in a fatality. It certainly makes me as someone not connected to the railway industry respect all the drivers, BTPO's, MOM's and first responders that sadly get involved in these instances.

I've had something not dissimilar, and I can confirm that it stays with me even now. A bottle of water was rolling towards the edge of the platform I was running into which was being pursued by a tot of around 3 years of age while Mum looked on dispassionately from the bench. I scared the poor mite silly by blasting the horn long and loud, but not as much as it scared me. I was so furious with Mum.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I left my cab. I wasn't certain that I killed them and was hoping I clipped them.

Tried to check the front of the train, couldnt see much so went walking down the track.

I found the body after a short walk. No rule prevents this, and I'd feel terrible if I clipped someone who was lay injured and didn't check.

I had a fatality (I was the guard) in 2003 and the driver asked me to accompany him back down the track which I did. Luckily for me I was travelling in the leading cab of the rear unit so I didn't see the impact. He was off work 2 weeks and had a SPAD not long after he came back, probably because his mind was elsewhere.

 

[Red Devil]

(my bold)

I would hope that the wording they used was better than that!

Absolutely. Appalling wording if that's what they used. Killing to me refers to murder and having had a fatality it's not something that I use when referring to it

I had a fatality (I was the guard) in 2003 and the driver asked me to accompany him back down the track which I did. Luckily for me I was travelling in the leading cab of the rear unit so I didn't see the impact. He was off work 2 weeks and had a SPAD not long after he came back, probably because his mind was elsewhere.

In my opinion 2 weeks off is not enough. I believe everyone is different and he obviously thought he was fine. His subsequent SPAD is proof that he wasn't

 

[bobslack1982]

My TOC has briefed and discussed suicides and fatalities on numerous occasions. They have even gone as far as showing the CCTV of a rather gruesome incident.

It is a very delicate subject but the reality can be quite shocking. 'Forewarned is forearmed' so to speak but essentially training people to deal with the potential outcomes and having full and frank discussions can be helpful in the long term.

I agree it needed to be discussed - not entirely sure the way it was presented was the best way of doing it!

(my bold)

I would hope that the wording they used was better than that!

Their description was that the trainer had said “all of you will kill someone, so you’d better come to terms with it”.

 

[Stigy]

BTP Will assist in the search and recovery of all body parts before placing them into the bag ready for dignity to remove. I have seen some sights, and I'm sorry to say some parts, which will live with me forever.

And of course, not all body parts are often accounted for. As long as the main bits are found...

 

[FGW_DID]

And of course, not all body parts are often accounted for. As long as the main bits are found...

Hence why back on Depot before a train involved in a fatality has any post incident checks it will be put in the Underframe Clean facility.
I can’t speak for every UFC but I’m sure in ours when it’s a post fatality wash down the drainage is diverted to a separate sluice tank so any remains can be collected.

 

[malc-c]

Hence why back on Depot before a train involved in a fatality has any post incident checks it will be put in the Underframe Clean facility.
I can’t speak for every UFC but I’m sure in ours when it’s a post fatality wash down the drainage is diverted to a separate sluice tank so any remains can be collected.

I know this sounds morbid or wrong, but that fascinates me... The fact that when designing these depots or maintenance centres with washes, the designers have had to cater for such occurrences, and it has the means to divert the waste water to a separate tank to allow any remains to be collected and used for whatever purposes (forensics or presumably to return personal things like rings etc to the family?).

 

[Pinza-C55]

Absolutely. Appalling wording if that's what they used. Killing to me refers to murder and having had a fatality it's not something that I use when referring to it

In my opinion 2 weeks off is not enough. I believe everyone is different and he obviously thought he was fine. His subsequent SPAD is proof that he wasn't

I had one day off but for the next couple of weeks I was like a robot when I was checking tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Passengers on 1B63 - the 1645 HST from Nottingham yesterday - were caught up in the fatality at Flitwick. Both ourselves and another southbound train were brought to a stand at Wellingborough following 1F55, a northbound train, hitting a person on the down fast at Flitwick.

We were fortunate to have ended up at Wellingborough, having been brought to stop there because it’s a manned station. We could have been allowed to proceed further towards the incident, but being stuck on a train is far less preferable than being at a station. Doors were released and we were free to walk about, exit the train and visit the lovely micropub on the station.

This incident took over two hours to clear and we were eventually able to go south on a replacement 222 south (our HST having departed back to the north). The incident train meanwhile had been moved to Bedford on the down fast, and passing the station the damage to the nose of the incident train was obvious to see - a large, torso sized gaping hole in the nose cone at the height you would expect if someone had jumped off a platform rather than been standing on the track. Sobering viewing. The clean up team were packing up and leaving Flitwick as we passed.

Overall, the delay was well managed. I was able to chat to a few of the staff and it was clear this was a complex incident and unfortunately the slow line wasn’t able to be handed back for a while. Buses were organised but took an hour to come (as expected tbh) to convey passengers to Northampton where ticket acceptance was in place southwards to London on LNWR. I stayed put and hedged my bets, and ended up in London a little quicker than had I taken the alternative route.

 

[Devon Sunset]

I’ve been involved in washing trains post fatality and it’s not nice. Obviously some are worse than others but it’s part and parcel of the job so you just get on with it. There is a separate underframe wash facility which is mainly used for cleaning sets pre exam but is also used for fatalities. There is no divert as far as drainage goes, everything goes in the same drain.

 

[eldomtom2]

Most posts in this thread talk about suicides - what is the procedure for seperating these from cases where the victim trepassed but did not intend to kill themselves? Obviously it must be recorded somehow as the annual safety reports separate them in the statstics.

 

[221129]

Most posts in this thread talk about suicides - what is the procedure for seperating these from cases where the victim trepassed but did not intend to kill themselves? Obviously it must be recorded somehow as the annual safety reports separate them in the statstics.

That's done initially by the police at the scene (suspicious/non suspicious/unexplained) and then the coroner is the one with the final say later on.

 

[Red Devil]

I’ve been involved in washing trains post fatality and it’s not nice. Obviously some are worse than others but it’s part and parcel of the job so you just get on with it. There is a separate underframe wash facility which is mainly used for cleaning sets pre exam but is also used for fatalities. There is no divert as far as drainage goes, everything goes in the same drain.

Thank you very much for doing an essential but what must be an extremely off putting job.

 

[Stigy]

Most posts in this thread talk about suicides - what is the procedure for seperating these from cases where the victim trepassed but did not intend to kill themselves? Obviously it must be recorded somehow as the annual safety reports separate them in the statstics.

As long as it’s not suspicious, the procedure is similar to that of a suicide. The driver will usually be able to account for the circumstances quite definitively.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Passengers on 1B63 - the 1645 HST from Nottingham yesterday - were caught up in the fatality at Flitwick. Both ourselves and another southbound train were brought to a stand at Wellingborough following 1F55, a northbound train, hitting a person on the down fast at Flitwick.

We were fortunate to have ended up at Wellingborough, having been brought to stop there because it’s a manned station. We could have been allowed to proceed further towards the incident, but being stuck on a train is far less preferable than being at a station. Doors were released and we were free to walk about, exit the train and visit the lovely micropub on the station.

This incident took over two hours to clear and we were eventually able to go south on a replacement 222 south (our HST having departed back to the north). The incident train meanwhile had been moved to Bedford on the down fast, and passing the station the damage to the nose of the incident train was obvious to see - a large, torso sized gaping hole in the nose cone at the height you would expect if someone had jumped off a platform rather than been standing on the track. Sobering viewing. The clean up team were packing up and leaving Flitwick as we passed.

Overall, the delay was well managed. I was able to chat to a few of the staff and it was clear this was a complex incident and unfortunately the slow line wasn’t able to be handed back for a while. Buses were organised but took an hour to come (as expected tbh) to convey passengers to Northampton where ticket acceptance was in place southwards to London on LNWR. I stayed put and hedged my bets, and ended up in London a little quicker than had I taken the alternative route.

I was caught up in this from the other direction, trying to get home (Flitwick) from London. Coincidentally I had read all of the posts in this thread earlier that day and was meaning to come on and say thankyou to everyone who had contributed their stories and thoughts, it made me think - for the first time - not just about the person who jumped and the driver, but also all the other teams involved.

One thing did puzzle me though. Once trains were moving again, Flitwick station remained closed and all trains cancelled in both directions for about another 90 minutes. Why would this be?

 

[221129]

Why would this be?

It's one thing for trains to pass a scene, a lot more needs to be done before allowing passengers to hang around an area for a longer time...

 

[seagull]

What really causes some problems is when the striking of a person happens without knowledge and is discovered later, as the offending train needs to be tracked down and that can take some doing.
Also related incidents can cause much consternation, such as one I had where an unexplained loss of air was traced to a leak three coaches back along the train, upon investigation it was noted that the second and third coaches had what appeared to be various body parts strewn along the front edges of underframe and bogies, but nothing at the front.
Cue an all-night search of several miles of main line by ground teams, as well as special analysis of the remains found on the train itself (as it had to immediately come out of service and go to depot) to determine whether human or animal. Whole thing took many hours and was somewhat distressing for me not knowing a) who or what it was, b) where it happened and c) how on earth I could have missed seeing something.
Turned out, to my huge relief, that it was a large animal, probably a deer, that had bounded onto the track exactly as the train was passing, colliding with the second coach - nothing was ever found on the track and the forward facing camera showed nothing of course either.

 

[adc82140]

(my bold)

I would hope that the wording they used was better than that!

I would hope that it'd be drilled in that a lump of metal travelling at whatever speed kills the person, and the driver is just an unwilling spectator.

 

[Highlandspring]

One thing did puzzle me though. Once trains were moving again, Flitwick station remained closed and all trains cancelled in both directions for about another 90 minutes. Why would this be?

Because, bluntly, the platforms and track need to be cleaned. I don't want to be too graphic here but after a person is hit there is often a lot of blood and with blood a little goes a long way. The body parts all go in the body bag but but depending on the speed of impact there are often very small particles of fat/flesh left over and if the scene is in a station these need to be cleaned up (scavenging birds or animals would deal with them otherwise, which is unpleasant but unfortunately that's just how nature works). Specialist contractors are used for this, such as Ambipar Response.

Cue an all-night search of several miles of main line by ground teams, as well as special analysis of the remains found on the train itself (as it had to immediately come out of service and go to depot) to determine whether human or animal. Whole thing took many hours and was somewhat distressing for me not knowing a) who or what it was, b) where it happened and c) how on earth I could have missed seeing something.

The BTP now have access to rapid haemoglobin tests which can tell them more or less instantly on site whether blood found on a train is human or animal in origin.

 

[malc-c]

I found this on the Network rail website here

Of the fatalities on the railway in 2019/20:

• Six occurred on a level crossing
• 17 involved people trespassing on the railway
• 283 were suicides or suspected suicides

Around 4.4 per cent of suicides in Great Britain take place on the railway, but the emotional, human and financial costs are disproportionately high as they can take place in view of passengers, station staff and drivers and result in considerable disruption to services.

Not sure how best to interpret those statistics... 4.4% would suggest that suicide by train is not the "preferred" option people in that state of mind "choose" to take. But it's certainly the one that has the biggest impact on others, from the personnel directly involved, through to those whose travel plans are inconvenienced by the resulting delays and disruption to services (and I don't mean that in a callas way, sadly its human nature to moan about these things when you're not connected - I've heard people say how inconsiderate the jumper was to do such a thing as they are now going to be late for meetings !! )

I would presume that the clean up procedure is well documented somewhere, possibly stipulating how far form the end of the platform the tracks had to be cleaned, and if any different procedures take place if the events take place in open countryside... It must take a special kind of person with a strong stomach to be able to jet wash down a platform and tracks after such an impact and not have it affect them in some way.....Again, if you are part of that team, and read this forum, then you have my respect

 

[Pseudonym]

I found this on the Network rail website here



Not sure how best to interpret those statistics... 4.4% would suggest that suicide by train is not the "preferred" option people in that state of mind "choose" to take. But it's certainly the one that has the biggest impact on others, from the personnel directly involved, through to those whose travel plans are inconvenienced by the resulting delays and disruption to services (and I don't mean that in a callas way, sadly its human nature to moan about these things when you're not connected - I've heard people say how inconsiderate the jumper was to do such a thing as they are now going to be late for meetings !! )

I would presume that the clean up procedure is well documented somewhere, possibly stipulating how far form the end of the platform the tracks had to be cleaned, and if any different procedures take place if the events take place in open countryside... It must take a special kind of person with a strong stomach to be able to jet wash down a platform and tracks after such an impact and not have it affect them in some way.....Again, if you are part of that team, and read this forum, then you have my respect

I work in Emergency Medicine (A&E as was) and you do get to see some gruesome sights.
I once had to confirm death in an unfortunate person who jumped from a multi-storey car park - the law said the person confirming had to be a doctor but anyone could have done so in reality (it was very obvious) - but somehow we just get on with it - sometimes with a very black sense of humour. It helps you deal with things.
The people cleaning up after an incident/fatality will know what they may have to do and so will expect it (still unpleasant though). The incident has happened by then and there is nothing they can do.
In contrast, the driver of a train sees the inevitable and can do nothing about it - very different feelings and consequences. It must be truly dreadful.
I can certify the victim of an RTC and then go and see an old lady with pneumonia or a bloke with a broken ankle without a second thought. But if someone jumped in front of my car on the way to work that would be a whole different ball game and I would be a total wreck even of there was nothing I could have done.
Anything that can be done to reduce the risk of suicide on the railways (and elsewhere) must be applauded. Similarly, educating youngsters not to play there is really important.
Support for drivers is hugely important too and should be made a mandatory requirement across the industry if not already.

 

[Lockwood]

I work in Emergency Medicine (A&E as was) and you do get to see some gruesome sights.
I once had to confirm death in an unfortunate person who jumped from a multi-storey car park - the law said the person confirming had to be a doctor but anyone could have done so in reality (it was very obvious)

ROLE vs certifying... The classic battle.
I had a trainer saying about how they went to a job with a CFR doing CPR on someone who had been sat on a chair when rigor set in and how daft that was, but it was in the scope of practice that they must make an effort... Then to tell us that we did not have the ability to ROLE, and dodged the question I had about someone with distinct hypostatic staining, and whether on our protocol an attempt should be made or not.

Had an incident at a sporting event, competitor was in arrest, so one crew nearby got sent and we went as backup. Got on scene over half an hour later, and the air ambulance car had arrived. We loaded the patient to clear the scene and allow people to move around again, and the doctor decided that we had been going for 40+ minutes, ALS for 20+, no output, nothing more that could be done, but she was unable to certify due to trust protocols as she wasn't working for the ambulance trust or a hospital trust. Race medical director was notified 5 minutes after CPR ceased, and was of the opinion that nobody should die at the event, so would we awfully mind restarting CPR. Air ambulance doctor, who was talking to them, was thoroughly unimpressed with that suggestion! We ended up conveying to the mortuary, with control trying to assign us a job while waiting to unload... 10/10 for compassion there!

(Recognition Of Life Extinct, Community First Responder, Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation, Advanced Life Support)

 

[Stigy]

ROLE vs certifying... The classic battle.
I had a trainer saying about how they went to a job with a CFR doing CPR on someone who had been sat on a chair when rigor set in and how daft that was, but it was in the scope of practice that they must make an effort... Then to tell us that we did not have the ability to ROLE, and dodged the question I had about someone with distinct hypostatic staining, and whether on our protocol an attempt should be made or not.

Had an incident at a sporting event, competitor was in arrest, so one crew nearby got sent and we went as backup. Got on scene over half an hour later, and the air ambulance car had arrived. We loaded the patient to clear the scene and allow people to move around again, and the doctor decided that we had been going for 40+ minutes, ALS for 20+, no output, nothing more that could be done, but she was unable to certify due to trust protocols as she wasn't working for the ambulance trust or a hospital trust. Race medical director was notified 5 minutes after CPR ceased, and was of the opinion that nobody should die at the event, so would we awfully mind restarting CPR. Air ambulance doctor, who was talking to them, was thoroughly unimpressed with that suggestion! We ended up conveying to the mortuary, with control trying to assign us a job while waiting to unload... 10/10 for compassion there!

(Recognition Of Life Extinct, Community First Responder, Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation, Advanced Life Support)

This has changed now. I’m a CFR, and we’ve been briefed that if it’s someone who is clearly deceased (rigor/decapitation etc etc) then we wouldn’t expected to perform basic life support. To be honest, if someone was decapitated I’d like to think common sense would prevail anyway, but there was always a grey area with people who had died of natural causes.

I once had to give CPR to a 96year old because the care joke couldn’t find the DNACPR. I gave it a token effort, but in reality it was never going to be with the sim of saving a life. I also had a concern for welfare recently who I found, but it was again, a grey area as to how long she had been there so I was duty bound to give it a go.

 

[pompeyfan]

What a load of nonsense that twitter feed was... I was at Winchester Station and seen the man jump he actually jumped before the train got to him if that makes sense and the train was stopping at Winchester so doing maybe 20-30 mph the train just knocked him down so no horrible mess and no mass damage to the train

The original Twitter feed was in regards to 1T70 Portsmouth - Waterloo which was trapped outside a station, and not the incident train. It was actually very accurate for someone who didn’t have access to the relevant logs. The irony in that as identified was that it lost 4 minutes at Fratton due to a passcom being activated and so was regulated at Eastleigh.

Wasn't there a day a few years ago on the South West Trains network where there was a fatality somewhere, the lines were blocked and power isolated. The usual personnel attended and it was dealt with pretty standard.

.

Wasn't there a day a few years ago on the South West Trains network where there was a fatality somewhere, the lines were blocked and power isolated. The usual personnel attended and it was dealt with pretty standard.Normal working was authorised and literally within the hour at a station or two away on the same line there was a 2nd fatality. I'm sure it was sooner because the staff on site at the 1st one went straight to the 2nd one.


When I read that report I was utterly shocked.

Yes you’re correct there was an incident at New Malden around 11am, reopened at about 12pm when a fast through Woking collided with someone that was identified as an ex guard that hadn’t long retired.

earlier this year there was two within twenty minutes on the Sussex route, one on the Arun valley and another at Hayward’s Heath. That mush have been a very difficult afternoon.

I wonder if there has been a train diverted because of a fatality that had then come to grief in another railway emergency?

Note: the mobile version of the website has absolutely mutilated the quotes.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I was caught up in this from the other direction, trying to get home (Flitwick) from London. Coincidentally I had read all of the posts in this thread earlier that day and was meaning to come on and say thankyou to everyone who had contributed their stories and thoughts, it made me think - for the first time - not just about the person who jumped and the driver, but also all the other teams involved.

One thing did puzzle me though. Once trains were moving again, Flitwick station remained closed and all trains cancelled in both directions for about another 90 minutes. Why would this be?

The body quite often doesn't remain in one piece. The human body is mostly liquid.

 

[anexel]

I am new to the forum, and I hope that it's alright for me to post this here. (If not, please don't hesitate to delete my post, or tell me where I should post it.) I am a film school student and I am currently doing some research for a documentary focussing on mental health in the British rail industry, especially among train drivers. I'd like to thank everyone who shared their experience on this thread, and I was wondering if some of you might be willing to chat with me about this topic? Thanks a lot!

 

[LCC106]

P

I am new to the forum, and I hope that it's alright for me to post this here. (If not, please don't hesitate to delete my post, or tell me where I should post it.) I am a film school student and I am currently doing some research for a documentary focussing on mental health in the British rail industry, especially among train drivers. I'd like to thank everyone who shared their experience on this thread, and I was wondering if some of you might be willing to chat with me about this topic? Thanks a lot!

Perhaps you could message a member of the admin team to see if it’s ok to make a new post on the subject? Welcome to the forum.

 

[185143]

The original Twitter feed was in regards to 1T70 Portsmouth - Waterloo which was trapped outside a station, and not the incident train. It was actually very accurate for someone who didn’t have access to the relevant logs. The irony in that as identified was that it lost 4 minutes at Fratton due to a passcom being activated and so was regulated at Eastleigh.

Wasn't there a day a few years ago on the South West Trains network where there was a fatality somewhere, the lines were blocked and power isolated. The usual personnel attended and it was dealt with pretty standard.





Yes you’re correct there was an incident at New Malden around 11am, reopened at about 12pm when a fast through Woking collided with someone that was identified as an ex guard that hadn’t long retired.

earlier this year there was two within twenty minutes on the Sussex route, one on the Arun valley and another at Hayward’s Heath. That mush have been a very difficult afternoon.

I wonder if there has been a train diverted because of a fatality that had then come to grief in another railway emergency?

Note: the mobile version of the website has absolutely mutilated the quotes.

There was the incident on EMT a few years ago where a vulnerable person was in an unsafe place near Leicester, a London bound train got diverted via Corby and subsequently hit a mudslide and derailed North of Corby.

Admittedly not a fatality that caused the derailment, but easily could have been-and the diversion would almost certainly have still happened. IIRC the train was standing at Leicester unable to depart due to the incident ahead before the decision was taken to divert.