What traction should Avanti be using between Euston and Birmingham

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised to see the 16:16 Euston-Birmingham not being 80x, as at present an 805 is perfectly sufficient for everyone to have a seat. Seems a waste of a Pendolino unless it's for diagramming reasons.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surprised to see the 16:16 Euston-Birmingham not being 80x, as at present an 805 is perfectly sufficient for everyone to have a seat. Seems a waste of a Pendolino unless it's for diagramming reasons.

What current Evero diagram do you think would said Pendolino be better used on then, out of interest? I'd personally be in favour of any Pendolinos on **:16 Birmingham stoppers being used in lieu of Evero trains on Liverpools instead.

 

[Class15]

What current Evero diagram do you think would said Pendolino be better used on then, out of interest? I'd personally be in favour of any Pendolinos on **:16 Birmingham stoppers being used in lieu of Evero trains on Liverpools instead.

No, I genuinely think that the Birminghams are good for pendolinos because it’s avanti’s busiest route so 11 car trains are needed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, I genuinely think that the Birminghams are good for pendolinos because it’s avanti’s busiest route so 11 car trains are needed.

From which source have you learned that?

 

[A S Leib]

There were 1.65 mn journeys between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly in 2023-4 vs 1.39 mn for Birmingham New Street, and Birmingham has LNR services as a clearer alternative. Coventry (650,000) isn't far off Crewe, Stoke and Stockport combined (700,000) but I think overall Manchester's probably at least by a little the busier route.

 

[hexagon789]

No, I genuinely think that the Birminghams are good for pendolinos because it’s avanti’s busiest route so 11 car trains are needed.

Thought Manchester was their busiest route? Hence the thrice hourly Pendolino service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, I genuinely think that the Birminghams are good for pendolinos because it’s avanti’s busiest route so 11 car trains are needed.

They're not on the semifast service as this is little more than a fancier WMT service at a higher price. It will be primarily used by people going to/from Watford, MKC and Rugby, with other seats taken by pricing people on using cheaper Advances.

 

[hexagon789]

They're not on the semifast service as this is little more than a fancier WMT service at a higher price. It will be primarily used by people going to/from Watford, MKC and Rugby, with other seats taken by pricing people on using cheaper Advances.

And of course the Avanti Birmingham semi-fast was always intended to be purely 80x, with the two fasts being 390s.

 

[Class15]

There were 1.65 mn journeys between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly in 2023-4 vs 1.39 mn for Birmingham New Street, and Birmingham has LNR services as a clearer alternative. Coventry (650,000) isn't far off Crewe, Stoke and Stockport combined (700,000) but I think overall Manchester's probably at least by a little the busier route.

Thought Manchester was their busiest route? Hence the thrice hourly Pendolino service.

Very well, apologies, but it’s certainly busier than Liverpool I would have thought?

 

[Toby268]

Surprised to see the 16:16 Euston-Birmingham not being 80x, as at present an 805 is perfectly sufficient for everyone to have a seat. Seems a waste of a Pendolino unless it's for diagramming reasons.

This service is frequently full and standing from Euston to MKC and between Coventry and New street to the point it’s regularly declassified.

 

[AndrewE]

This service is frequently full and standing from Euston to MKC and between Coventry and New street to the point it’s regularly declassified.

Perhaps MKC should be pick-up only?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps MKC should be pick-up only?

Possibly so. After MKC it's not that busy, and I certainly haven't experienced it being full and standing from Cov to Brum - I've used it a few times mostly on Tuesdays.

 

[AJDesiro]

Surprised to see the 16:16 Euston-Birmingham not being 80x, as at present an 805 is perfectly sufficient for everyone to have a seat. Seems a waste of a Pendolino unless it's for diagramming reasons.

The 18:21 which that subsequently forms is busy, generally fully reserved with people standing.

 

[hexagon789]

Very well, apologies, but it’s certainly busier than Liverpool I would have thought?

Yes, but then Liverpool only has an hourly service plus (currently) 4 extras. Birmingham has almost the same AWC frequency as Manchester plus the LNWR services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Very well, apologies, but it’s certainly busier than Liverpool I would have thought?

Liverpool at the moment only has one train per hour though. I also specifically mentioned the **16 Birminghams which are semi-fast services calling at Watford, Milton Keynes and Rugby and are primarily for connecting those stations with Birmingham rather than London. The Everos have much faster acceleration.

The **10 fast Birminghams which are non-stop to Coventry I would certainly keep all as Pendolinos.

But I didn't actually say I'd be in favour of the Pendolinos on **16 Birminghams and the Everos on Liverpools swapping because of capacity. Heh heh. No, I must admit it's because the journey to Liverpool is about an hour longer than Birmingham, and I personally think the Pendolinos are nicer trains to be on for long distance travel, that's all.

Now that is completely subjective and many will disagree - but I wasn't saying that's what should happen, just that I would personally support this move if it was made, from a selfish point of view. Keep the fast long-distance services Pendolino perfect and shove the Hitachi things on the slow stoppers and the Welsh runs

And yes, Avanti's busiest route is Manchester.

 

[Sorcerer]

Assuming that capacity needs can be satisfied, then the semi-fast service should use an 805/807 as was intended. The better acceleration and deceleration is better suited for the more frequent stops, and arguably the service is more of an inter-regional than intercity. I sort of feel like, beyond an 11-coach unit providing more seats, Pendolinos were sort of wasted on the Birmingham services given the relatively short distance. The Scotland via West Midlands route is a much more appropriate use for them, and in that way you still get them for passengers and crews at and around Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

 

[Zomboid]

sort of feel like, beyond an 11-coach unit providing more seats, Pendolinos were sort of wasted on the Birmingham services given the relatively short distance.

Surely train length around be decided by the number of people using it rather than journey length?
London to Birmingham is definitely an inter city trip and takes long enough that it warrants a decent quality train.

 

[amahy]

In my experience, the busiest avanti services are the London to Scotland via Birminghams, which is regularly a 9 car from what I’ve seen.

 

[Sorcerer]

Surely train length around be decided by the number of people using it rather than journey length?

I didn't say otherwise, quite the opposite. I was clear the 11-coach Pendolino capacity is the only thing in my eyes that stops them being wasted on the route, and that's assuming such capacity is actually needed on the regular.

London to Birmingham is definitely an inter city trip and takes long enough that it warrants a decent quality train.

Yes, the London to Scotland via Birmingham services are definitely among the best suited for a Pendolino which I made clear in my original post. The Birmingham fast terminating services, maybe, especially ones running non-stop to Rugby or Coventry, even though the length is still quite short for an InterCity route on par with Mancheshter/Liverpool to Birmingham. The stopping pattern of the fast is really the only thing makes it InterCity.

But the semi-fast? I don't think that would be considered an intercity service elsewhere. If it were an SBB route it would probably be classed as an InterRegio service which are semi-fast trains that are below InterCity services but still above Regional Express ones. The flexible Everos with their rapid acceleration rate are much better suited for this sort of trip than the Pendolino which is a pure InterCity train in practically every way.

 

[RailWonderer]

But the semi-fast? I don't think that would be considered an intercity service elsewhere. If it were an SBB route it would probably be classed as an InterRegio service which are semi-fast trains that are below InterCity services but still above Regional Express ones. The flexible Everos with their rapid acceleration rate are much better suited for this sort of trip than the Pendolino which is a pure InterCity train in practically every way.

I agree the semi fast Brum is more or an Interregional service but SBB use their Bombardier Twindexx trains on IR and IC routes interchangably, as Virgin did and Avanti do with Pendolinos because a subfleet just for Brum is pointless. The IETs are there to replace Voyagers on North Wales routes as well as adding capacity to the Pendolino fleet that was becoming stretched so have their own purpose. Voyagers were running Euston - Brum and Euston - Edinburgh fully under the wires regularly when Pendolinos weren't available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree the semi fast Brum is more or an Interregional service but SBB use their Bombardier Twindexx trains on IR and IC routes interchangably, as Virgin did and Avanti do with Pendolinos because a subfleet just for Brum is pointless. The IETs are there to replace Voyagers on North Wales routes as well as adding capacity to the Pendolino fleet that was becoming stretched so have their own purpose.

...one of which was the Birmingham semi fast.

They can only go on the 110mph paths anyway.

 

[Sorcerer]

I agree the semi fast Brum is more or an Interregional service but SBB use their Bombardier Twindexx trains on IR and IC routes interchangably, as Virgin did and Avanti do with Pendolinos because a subfleet just for Brum is pointless. The IETs are there to replace Voyagers on North Wales routes as well as adding capacity to the Pendolino fleet that was becoming stretched so have their own purpose. Voyagers were running Euston - Brum and Euston - Edinburgh fully under the wires regularly when Pendolinos weren't available.

I also agree that a subfleet for the Birmingham trains alone would've been pointless, especially when one of those continues on to Scotland. However, as mentioned above, the Everos were designed for use on the Birmingham semi-fast as well as the North Wales and second Liverpool service. This allows the existing Pendolinos on the semi-fast trains to be freed up for running on the Edinburgh trains and all services north of Preston (except Blackpool of course).

I think given that the Liverpool Everos are only timed to be seven minutes slower than the Pendolinos on a 193-mile route, the semi-fast service on the shorter 112-mile Birmingham route might just be the one Avanti service where the time difference between 110mph and 125mph running is practically negligible, hence it being the best suited route for the Evero units.