NeilWatson
Member
- Joined
- 20 Jan 2013
- Messages
- 174
Class 55 Deltic at Peterborough for me, the unmistakeable sound as it pulled away from the platform and the impressive bulk of the engine.
...also remembered fondly on the Southern! 508s appeared when I was about five, and they seemed positively space-age compared to the knackered and vandalised SUBs and EPBs I was used to.A 507/8 with the bright yellow interior and green tartan style seats squeaking along the jointed track on the Wirral, good times!
Jaffa Cake livery? It was like seeing trains from another country over on the SE side of London Bridge when on rare trips to London!As I'm not very good on actually train types, but someone here will know exactly what I mean, the slam door EMUs of South East London / Kent. The most exciting was a trip to Margate, Broadstairs or Ramsgate during the school summer holidays when you could go direct from Dartford. We came from Bexleyheath and changed for this service.
Age 9? Western or class 47 thundering over Sandy Lane Level Crossing, near Kidlington. If platform, same again at Oxford.
That is my undergraduate days ... call that aged 19.
Yeah, I liked the 319s! A big step forward at the time. People get nostalgic about EPBs, and as an enthusiast I liked them, but as a day to day user of the rail network, they were horrible rancid things.
My memories are a bit later. They were all blue & grey by then with nearly all the Selhurst units getting NSE livery before their demise in 1992/1993. One Sunday the Arun Valley line was blocked so the Victoria to Bognor trains were terminating at Horsham. Incredibly unit 5428 covered one of the diagrams all day. I think control were having fun because there were a few VEPs parked in the sidings. Inexplicably I took several photos but it never occurred to me to ride it to Victoria and back.I was never a regular EPB user, but I do remember getting to travel in one once and finding it quite exciting (as it was something different to the CIGs/VEPs/BEPs and occasional HAPs that were the normal trains on the Portsmouth Direct). It was October 1983 and an 8EPB substituted for some reason on the 1832 (?) Waterloo to Fratton stopper, that strange train that called at Godalming and Witley but not Farncombe. I was obviously late coming home from school for some reason that night. I think I even remember the numbers, 5123 and 5124, and IIRC both were _still_ in all over blue. In fact, I think to this day that is the only occasion I ever used an EPB, even though they were still being used on the South Eastern as late as 1993 or so.
I also remember another EPB substitution on the first day of the new timetable 1983. I worked out that the EPB must have covered the whole diagram all day without substitution, including several '82' Waterloo-Portsmouth semi-fasts, because it was there on the morning train (the 0756-ish Guildford to Portsmouth 83 stopper) and was still there in the evening on the same diagram (the 1730 Guildford to Portsmouth stopper, 1630 ex-Waterloo via Cobham). Usual unit for this was a 4CIG.
My recollection is that SUBs as well as EPBs were quite common, not just in the peaks (I travelled home from school in mid-afternoon), until the SUBs were withdrawn in the summer of that year, presumably as more 455s arrived (I think the first 455s entered service around Easter). I can't remember whether EPBs lasted much longer on the SW than SUBs, although from what you say:My first experience of 508s was as a 'Southern' unit, seeing them at Surbiton on Hampton Court services! Just about remember the pre-455 era in 1983... IIRC 508s dominated the SW suburban lines that year, though presumably they still used EPBs in the peaks as there would not have been enough 508s to cover all services.
there must have still been some around that autumn.It was October 1983 and an 8EPB substituted for some reason on the 1832 (?) Waterloo to Fratton stopper
The last EPBs on the South Western were BR Standard 2 car units, I think. I'm really struggling to remember any beyond about 1984 or 85. I lived in Kingston at the time, but was at primary school, so I don't know if EPBs were more common in the peaks. As mentioned, SUBs went around August 1983, and lasted a month or so longer on the Central Division.My recollection is that SUBs as well as EPBs were quite common, not just in the peaks (I travelled home from school in mid-afternoon), until the SUBs were withdrawn in the summer of that year, presumably as more 455s arrived (I think the first 455s entered service around Easter). I can't remember whether EPBs lasted much longer on the SW than SUBs, although from what you say:
there must have still been some around that autumn.
My recollection is that SUBs as well as EPBs were quite common, not just in the peaks (I travelled home from school in mid-afternoon), until the SUBs were withdrawn in the summer of that year, presumably as more 455s arrived (I think the first 455s entered service around Easter). I can't remember whether EPBs lasted much longer on the SW than SUBs, although from what you say:
there must have still been some around that autumn.
Jaffa Cake livery? It was like seeing trains from another country over on the SE side of London Bridge when on rare trips to London!
Oh yes remember when they went all Jaffa, but before that was the standard BR dark blue
Take a look at www.bloodandcustard.com which has comprehensive notes about almost every Southern region unit. Last day for SUBs was 5th September 1983. I vaguely recall blue units but I was only five so they could easily have been EPBs. Don't think I ever rode on a SUB. I've asked my dad but he can't remember for sure. I remember the brand new 508s but obviously they stood out amongst the hundreds of slammers.EPBs definitely lasted until May 1984, as the Cobham line timetable of 1983/4 was worked by 60% 4VEP, 40% 4CIG off peak *but* the peak timetable was pretty consistent 4VEP/4EPB combinations (with the occasional 8VEP or 4VEP + 2EPB + 2EPB).
May 1984 was when 455s took over the Cobham line, but even then, a few peak journeys were operated with slam-door stock (mostly VEPs, but as Journeyman says some 2EPBs made an appearance). One of the most interesting 2EPB workings was the 1758 Waterloo to Alton of 1983/4 which was a 2EPB + 2EPB + 4CIG combination. I think they had all gone by the 1985 timetable, which was a timetable of significant cutbacks to peak services anyhow.
I wasn't aware SUBs lasted that late. I remember in spring 1983 (May?) seeing rakes of SUBs pass through Woking presumably on the way to Eastleigh for withdrawal, so I assumed that they'd been withdrawn with the May 1983 timetable or possibly even earlier. I never saw a SUB in service, though it looks like I only narrowly missed them.
Most of the CEPs had it. I think some even got Jaffa Cake after NSE started. I'm sure that some survived into 1990. CIGs 1701 to 1711 had Jaffa Cake but not for long. Maybe a year. I don't ever recall seeing a CIG in Jaffa Cake but there are a few photos on the net if you do a search.How dominant was Jaffa Cake? If I recall correctly, quite a few South Eastern CEPs went Jaffa Cake but few elsewhere. Certainly on the South Western it went straight from blue-and-grey to NSE, starting in July 1986 (sttill remember the first-ever NSE unit I saw, the 4VEP as-was 7850 coming into Guildford from an Ascot service).
I do seem to remember quite a few South Eastern CEPs in September 1986 and even August 1987 were Jaffa Cake (even into NSE days) but they were also rare on the Central Division; I remember seeing one in Brighton in October 1985 on a refurbished CIG (17xx) and I think I may have seen others at Clapham Junction or East Croydon in 1985/6, but they didn't seem to be dominant.
How dominant was Jaffa Cake? If I recall correctly, quite a few South Eastern CEPs went Jaffa Cake but few elsewhere. Certainly on the South Western it went straight from blue-and-grey to NSE, starting in July 1986 (sttill remember the first-ever NSE unit I saw, the 4VEP as-was 7850 coming into Guildford from an Ascot service).
I do seem to remember quite a few South Eastern CEPs in September 1986 and even August 1987 were Jaffa Cake (even into NSE days) but they were also rare on the Central Division; I remember seeing one in Brighton in October 1985 on a refurbished CIG (17xx) and I think I may have seen others at Clapham Junction or East Croydon in 1985/6, but they didn't seem to be dominant.
Yeah, that's about your lot. Oddly, after those CIGs appeared in Jaffa Cake, the next few refurbs emerged in blue and grey, before NSE started being used.Most of the CEPs had it. I think some even got Jaffa Cake after NSE started. I'm sure that some survived into 1990. CIGs 1701 to 1711 had Jaffa Cake but not for long. Maybe a year. I don't ever recall seeing a CIG in Jaffa Cake but there are a few photos on the net if you do a search.
Have some vague recollection some 309s were painted in Jaffa cake or is my memory playing tricks?How dominant was Jaffa Cake? If I recall correctly, quite a few South Eastern CEPs went Jaffa Cake but few elsewhere. Certainly on the South Western it went straight from blue-and-grey to NSE, starting in July 1986 (sttill remember the first-ever NSE unit I saw, the 4VEP as-was 7850 coming into Guildford from an Ascot service).
You are right, they did get Jaffa Cake livery.Have some vague recollection some 309s were painted in Jaffa cake or is my memory playing tricks?
According to The '4 Sub' Story (Brian Rayner and David Brown; published by the Southern Electric Group in 1983; ISBN 0-906988-09-8), diagrammed weekend use of 4-SUBS ceased in August 1980 on the SW (following the arrival of the 508s) and in May 1981 on the Central Division; on weekdays they were common on the SW until the 1983 timetable change (there's a picture of one on a mid-morning working on April 28th); and the last diagrammed working on the SW was on 11th July, but numerous ad hoc workings (including several trips to Guildford) continued until 6th August (a Saturday).EPBs definitely lasted until May 1984, as the Cobham line timetable of 1983/4 was worked by 60% 4VEP, 40% 4CIG off peak *but* the peak timetable was pretty consistent 4VEP/4EPB combinations (with the occasional 8VEP or 4VEP + 2EPB + 2EPB).
May 1984 was when 455s took over the Cobham line, but even then, a few peak journeys were operated with slam-door stock (mostly VEPs, but as Journeyman says some 2EPBs made an appearance). One of the most interesting 2EPB workings was the 1758 Waterloo to Alton of 1983/4 which was a 2EPB + 2EPB + 4CIG combination. I think they had all gone by the 1985 timetable, which was a timetable of significant cutbacks to peak services anyhow.
I wasn't aware SUBs lasted that late. I remember in spring 1983 (May?) seeing rakes of SUBs pass through Woking presumably on the way to Eastleigh for withdrawal, so I assumed that they'd been withdrawn with the May 1983 timetable or possibly even earlier. I never saw a SUB in service, though it looks like I only narrowly missed them.
According to the book, the last day on the Central division was Tuesday 6th September (and 6th September 1983 was indeed a Tuesday, so it presumably isn't just a typo).Take a look at www.bloodandcustard.com which has comprehensive notes about almost every Southern region unit. Last day for SUBs was 5th September 1983.
Actually I think I may have got it wrong about never seeing SUBs in service. Now that I think about it, I'm starting to remember one occasion in which I saw SUBs at Platform 1 in Guildford, covering a Cobham service. Didn't examine them closely, as I think they pulled out before I arrived on the platform, but it was semi-dark, and it was on the way home from school (which would make it between 16:00 and 17:00) so it would have had to have been Nov/Dec 1982 or Jan 1983 as otherwise it would have been full daylight. Probably Jan 1983 as I only became aware of what a 4SUB was when I received the Ian Allan 'Multiple Units' book as a Christmas present in 1982.According to The '4 Sub' Story (Brian Rayner and David Brown; published by the Southern Electric Group in 1983; ISBN 0-906988-09-8), diagrammed weekend use of 4-SUBS ceased in August 1980 on the SW (following the arrival of the 508s) and in May 1981 on the Central Division; on weekdays they were common on the SW until the 1983 timetable change (there's a picture of one on a mid-morning working on April 28th); and the last diagrammed working on the SW was on 11th July, but numerous ad hoc workings (including several trips to Guildford) continued until 6th August (a Saturday).
The pattern by May 1983 seemed to be 100% 508 on the Hampton Courts on a Saturday; I remember spending two consecutive Saturdays at Surbiton (for several hours) and all Hampton Courts were 508s; no SUBs, no EPBs, and no 455s. Never saw them on weekdays though, and also I am not sure whether these Saturdays were before or after the timetable change. They were both mid-May I think (either 7th/14th or 14th/21st); definitely not the last Saturday of the month (28th) as I remember doing something else on that day.According to the book, the last day on the Central division was Tuesday 6th September (and 6th September 1983 was indeed a Tuesday, so it presumably isn't just a typo).
My memory is that my train to school (a Hampton Court one) was formed of 4-SUBs until the Easter holidays in 1983, and mostly (with at least one exception, I think, possibly more) of 455s after that. My last 4-SUB journey (apart from in the preserved unit at the Woking open day in 1988) was sometime in June or early July, on a train which I think was going (from Waterloo) to Horsham.
I'm not sure why the disappearance of the 4-EPBs from the SW made no great impression on my memory; I'm guessing that it was a combination of their being less noticeably antiquated than the 4-SUBs, still plentiful elsewhere, and by that time not normally employed on the trains that I used regularly.
Take a look at www.bloodandcustard.com which has comprehensive notes about almost every Southern region unit. Last day for SUBs was 5th September 1983. I vaguely recall blue units but I was only five so they could easily have been EPBs. Don't think I ever rode on a SUB. I've asked my dad but he can't remember for sure. I remember the brand new 508s but obviously they stood out amongst the hundreds of slammers.
Yes, Jaffa Cake def fairly common it seemed on CEPs, and indeed Clacton 309s as mentioned here. IIRC that was connected with the fact that the units were going through a heavy refurbishment (at Swindon works? -I've not checked) and being outstripped in Jaffa cake.How dominant was Jaffa Cake? If I recall correctly, quite a few South Eastern CEPs went Jaffa Cake but few elsewhere. Certainly on the South Western it went straight from blue-and-grey to NSE, starting in July 1986 (sttill remember the first-ever NSE unit I saw, the 4VEP as-was 7850 coming into Guildford from an Ascot service).
I do seem to remember quite a few South Eastern CEPs in September 1986 and even August 1987 were Jaffa Cake (even into NSE days) but they were also rare on the Central Division; I remember seeing one in Brighton in October 1985 on a refurbished CIG (17xx) and I think I may have seen others at Clapham Junction or East Croydon in 1985/6, but they didn't seem to be dominant.
Yes, Jaffa Cake def fairly common it seemed on CEPs, and indeed Clacton 309s as mentioned here. IIRC that was connected with the fact that the units were going through a heavy refurbishment (at Swindon works? -I've not checked) and being outstripped in Jaffa cake.
Then some CIGs on central division (where I lived) got done, but I am not sure from memory if this was associated with any refurb work or just a cyclical repaint as part of a heavy repair schedule. I'm thinking this was 1985 probably.
This new jaffa cake livery seemed quite an exciting development to me at the time. However, in the great scheme of things it did not last that long and of course the NSE livery got rolled out much more widely.