Wheelchair user unable to board Azuma in reverse configuration at Kings Cross

[Bayum]

Doug Paulley, a disabled activist, has uploaded a video of his trilogy in attempting to board a train from Kings Cross to Leeds. The train had arrived in reverse direction from Bounds Depot and the platform the train arrived on did not have significant width to allow the wheelchair ramp to be deployed and space for the wheelchair to be manoeuvred to use the ramp.

Though I disagree with some of his past escapades, I do think this highlights the issues some disabled visitors to London, including myself, face when attempting to travel around the city.

On my mobile, so unable to properly embed the video within the thread.

 

[Nym]

Goes to show the state of things in this country's railway. "At least we tried, but something happened".

If there is a criticality of operational constraint that's required for accessibility, why is is not an operational rule?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Sadly I'm not a fan of videos and suspect he doesn't allow comments on them because he knows he'd get quite alot of negative posts on them.

Having said that, I once had this same scenario happen to me at a Station I was working at a few years ago. I spoke to the Conductor, pointed out the issue and they agreed to talk to the Driver. They both agreed to draw the train forwards enough so that the exterior door was on a wide enough section of the platform, to safely allow the wheelchair passenger to board the train.

What was stopping the train crew here from doing the same?

 

[swr444]

They should have been placed in the other accessible area as the train has one in standard and one in first. If they can’t be boarded in their booked class then place them in the other, I would only make them get a partial refund and not charge them a first excess as this isn’t their fault.

 

[Peter0124]

They should have been placed in the other accessible area as the train has one in standard and one in first. If they can’t be boarded in their booked class then place them in the other, I would only make them get a partial refund and not charge them a first excess as this isn’t their fault.

Apparently there was no wheelchair space in standard as it was a 5 car Azuma.

 

[Energy]

Poor show from LNER, only a single 5 car unit and it took them that long to move down the platform at Kings Cross.

Concerning that the train manager wanted him on the next train instead rather than moving the train a couple metres, shows how the railway sometimes treats disabled people.

Apparently there was no wheelchair space in standard as it was a 5 car Azuma.

Yep, only disabled spaces are in first class, though strangely both ends have a disabled toilet. Presumably it came from the 9 cars having disabled spaces at both ends.

 

[fgwrich]

Poor show from LNER, only a single 5 car unit and it took them that long to move down the platform at Kings Cross.

Concerning that the train manager wanted him on the next train instead rather than moving the train a couple metres, shows how the railway sometimes treats disabled people.


View attachment 146870
Yep, only disabled spaces are in first class, though strangely both ends have a disabled toilet. Presumably it came from the 9 cars having disabled spaces at both ends.

It's another odd quirk of the poor IET Design!

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Surely common sense could have been applied as the platform is long enough for 10 it could be moved up enough without causing any issues.

More importantly the stop point should accommodate the train being either way around so that this never happens again.

 

[Energy]

It's another odd quirk of the poor IET Design!

Indeed, if they didn't have the kitchens in the 5 cars they could have got all of 1st class in 1 driving vehicle and had plenty of space for disabled spaces at both ends.

 

[yorkie]

Do we know why the Train Manager initially allegedly refused, if all other relevant staff were happy to do it?

(Edit: I've added allegedly as it's not clear if this is what happened, although it appears to be stated as such in the video, that might have been a misunderstanding)

 

[voyagerdude220]

I know I've voiced criticism of Doug earlier in the thread, but having now properly watched this particular video, I can't understand why the Train Manager was refusing to allow the Driver to move the train, when there weren't any problems with platform length etc.

 

[185]

Awful little 5-car trains are simply unfit for the nation's mainlines. They belong somewhere between Leeds and Dewsbury.

Larger trains have multiple spaces. If (as said) that's the only space, I can see those who paid first class being unhappy about standard class passengers using first.

 

[800001]

Surely common sense could have been applied as the platform is long enough for 10 it could be moved up enough without causing any issues.

More importantly the stop point should accommodate the train being either way around so that this never happens again.

If you adjust the stopping point in case a unit is in reverse, then you restrict the capacity of the platform.

If that unit is booked in platform at buffer stops, there could be a Lumo, Hull Train or Grand Central due in behind it.

The main issue here is, LNER and station staff would know that the unit was going to be in reverse, they would also know that the gentleman had passenger assistance booked, also the attendant who put the ramp down firstly should also have known that the wheelchair would be unable to access the ramp in that location.

The station team, should have arranged with Network Rail a platform alteration well in advance, so that there was no issue whatsoever putting a ramp down with the unit in reverse.

 

[yorkie]

Larger trains have multiple spaces. If (as said) that's the only space, I can see those who paid first class being unhappy about standard class passengers using first.

As a regular in LNER first class, I can't see that anyone should be unhappy at a wheelchair user who has paid the standard class price occupying this space, and in any case it's an irrelevance to this case

 

[800001]

Awful little 5-car trains are simply unfit for the nation's mainlines. They belong somewhere between Leeds and Dewsbury.

Larger trains have multiple spaces. If (as said) that's the only space, I can see those who paid first class being unhappy about standard class passengers using first.

Standard passengers can not book passenger assistant in a wheelchair space on the 5 car train.

However, if turning up with a standard class open ticket then LNER are obliged to place the customer and their companions into the first class assessable space.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Has anyone actually watched the video clip in full? The train did move up and the passenger boarded. Whilst most people seem to be having a go at the Train Manager we don't know what was actually conveyed to her or what her reply was. It is implied she was been a*sey and whilst this may have been the case it was quite possible she was looking to get approval. Whilst it may seem trivial to some to move the train a couple of yards there are procedures to follow. For instance she would be giving the driver permission to proceed against a red signal.
What seems to be to be rather more important is that this was allowed to happen in the first place. I find it astonishing in that there is no wheelchair space in standard class - what would have happened if the train had been ten cars and the passenger was on board an arriving train?

 

[Snow1964]

For instance she would be giving the driver permission to proceed against a red signal.

Maybe rules have changed, but I remember that guards on southern region used to allow a train to move forward towards a red signal by giving 6 bells instead of normal 2

Anyway would have expected a conversation with driver to explain plan before any draw up signal was given.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Maybe rules have changed, but I remember that guards on southern region used to allow a train to move forward towards a red signal by giving 6 bells instead of normal 2

Anyway would have expected a conversation with driver to explain plan before any draw up signal was given.

Yes you can but you must also inform the signaller and make sure the train is also safe and fit to move.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The signaller was happy, the driver was happy but the TM wasn't playing ball, Doug went in hard with a phone call to LNER senior management, he's been massively mistreated by too many TOCs and won't accept anything but what the law dictates. Clearly his phone call followed by his hardball tactics, the managers intervention who also initially refused him entry and more than likely pressure from other LNER colleagues involved made the TM buckle.

Whilst I know this hopefully wouldn't have been a problem if the train was a 9 or 10 coach service (other accessible spaces would have been available) I could imagine the difficulties of this move being authorised if it was a full length train where it would have begun fouling points or signals.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The signaller was happy, the driver was happy but the TM wasn't playing ball, Doug went in hard with a phone call to LNER senior management, he's been massively mistreated by too many TOCs and won't accept anything but what the law dictates. Clearly his phone call followed by his hardball tactics, the managers intervention who also initially refused him entry and more than likely pressure from other LNER colleagues involved made the TM buckle.

Whilst I know this hopefully wouldn't have been a problem if the train was a 9 or 10 coach service (other accessible spaces would have been available) I could imagine the difficulties of this move being authorised if it was a full length train where it would have begun fouling points or signals.

Did you actually witness what the TM said or are you hypothesising from the video clip?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Did you actually witness what the TM said or are you hypothesising from the video clip?

It is the theme and comments I heard her LNER colleagues make, she wouldn't come and make an appearance in the video and talk to Doug so relied upon her colleagues to deliver the message. So this is hypothesised feeling from watching it

 

[Peterthegreat]

It is the theme and comments I heard her LNER colleagues make, she wouldn't come and make an appearance in the video and talk to Doug so relied upon her colleagues to deliver the message. So this is hypothesised feeling from watching it

So it's hearsay. You may be right but it could be more complicated than that.

 

[LowLevel]

Delays can be drummed in too hard at times causing people to react in an irrational fashion at the prospect of even potentially taking an action that might result in delay. I imagine the staff involved just fixated on the prospect of delay until someone pointed out that the problem was the TOC's, it was a direct issue with the interface between the train and the station and it is relatively easily resolved, so get on with it whilst keeping delay to a minimum.

The irony is that the concern is generally misplaced. I've delayed many trains on my own initiative and even refused direct instructions on rare occasions and whilst I've been asked to explain (as I'd expect as someone with decision making authority who can cause thousands of pounds worth of expense to the business) I've never had any legitimate response criticised beyond that.

I said on another thread that it can be problematic to move a train - but with people and planning those problems are easily overcome.

 

[87 027]

In this instance the final solution seemed so basic and obvious I really do struggle to see why LNER made such meal over it.

Disclosure: as well as being a rail enthusiast I am a trustee for the local branch of a national household name charity supporting disabled people

 

[Ianigsy]

Could have done with him being on the LNER train I took about six weeks ago, where the reservations in the first unit were back to front.

The 5 car Azumas are a flaming menace, though, and need sorting into proper length sets.
Moderator note: to discuss the possibility of lengthening 5-car Azumas, please use the following thread:

LNER's 5-car Azumas should be lengthened

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wheelchair-user-unable-to-board-azuma-in-reverse-configuration-at-kings-cross.257877/ The 5 car Azumas are a flaming menace, and need sorting into proper length sets.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

On the face of it very poor. Moving a train a few feet along a platform is a lot more of a faff than might be imagined, but hardly insurmountable (where I am it would involve a driver to call signaller and move the train, TM to close doors and make appropriate PA announcements, and platform staff to supervise the move from outside the driver’s cab and ideally someone at the buffer stops end of the platform to prevent people throwing themselves at the train as it unexpectedly starts moving).

Delays can be drummed in too hard at times causing people to react in an irrational fashion at the prospect of even potentially taking an action that might result in delay. I imagine the staff involved just fixated on the prospect of delay until someone pointed out that the problem was the TOC's, it was a direct issue with the interface between the train and the station and it is relatively easily resolved, so get on with it whilst keeping delay to a minimum.

Agree, this does seem very odd on the face of it when all staff were present and correct and happy to proceed.

It would be interesting to know exactly what had been relayed to the guard (and when) by platform staff. I can only imagine perhaps she had been told about his threats to cause a “security incident” which isn’t ideal language to use (because the worry for traincrew is what if the person kicks off in the middle of nowhere). No doubt any such concerns would have been easily resolved had she spoken to him, but she perhaps didn’t want to be on a video.

The irony is that the concern is generally misplaced. I've delayed many trains on my own initiative and even refused direct instructions on rare occasions and whilst I've been asked to explain (as I'd expect as someone with decision making authority who can cause thousands of pounds worth of expense to the business) I've never had any legitimate response criticised beyond that.

Again agreed. Same experience here. A couple of times I’ve unfortunately over carried wheelchair passengers on trains that are next stop London (I expect you can guess which large intermediate station in the midlands was involved ). In each case the TM has buzzed me, asked if I’m happy to stop out of course (which I always am) and then said they’ll call control for permission, I’ve said “just call them and tell them we’re stopping”! If anyone ever challenged me on it I’d fall back on the ultimate safety concern: I don’t ever want to be driving a train with someone on it who doesn’t want to be there, and who may pull an egress.

 

[danbarjon]

Awful little 5-car trains are simply unfit for the nation's mainlines. They belong somewhere between Leeds and Dewsbury.

Larger trains have multiple spaces. If (as said) that's the only space, I can see those who paid first class being unhappy about standard class passengers using first.

I regularly travel First Class and when wheelchair users have been upgraded it's not a case of the people who paid for First Class are unhappy for Standard passengers using First Class, if anything I feel unhappy that the wheelchair users can't travel in the class they originally wanted to travel in.

Standard passengers can not book passenger assistant in a wheelchair space on the 5 car train.

However, if turning up with a standard class open ticket then LNER are obliged to place the customer and their companions into the first class assessable space.

You can book assistance. You will automatically be upgraded to First Class based off personal experience being a companion. The information about the 5 car wheelchair spaces are on the website.

Assisted Travel

We're here to help customers with restricted mobility and offer assistance in everything from the train journey to booking tickets.

www.lner.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

Standard passengers can not book passenger assistant in a wheelchair space on the 5 car train.

This isn't correct. That would not be in line with the company Disabled Person's Protection Policy.

Delays can be drummed in too hard at times causing people to react in an irrational fashion at the prospect of even potentially taking an action that might result in delay. I imagine the staff involved just fixated on the prospect of delay until someone pointed out that the problem was the TOC's, it was a direct issue with the interface between the train and the station and it is relatively easily resolved, so get on with it whilst keeping delay to a minimum.

The irony is that the concern is generally misplaced. I've delayed many trains on my own initiative and even refused direct instructions on rare occasions and whilst I've been asked to explain (as I'd expect as someone with decision making authority who can cause thousands of pounds worth of expense to the business) I've never had any legitimate response criticised beyond that.

I said on another thread that it can be problematic to move a train - but with people and planning those problems are easily overcome.

Exactly. At the end of the day, it's really not difficult to move the train in most cases is it? Yes, it's a slow process, and there's a need to keep a cool head a follow procedure. You can say that about a lot things train crew have to do though. It may be very fiddly if you have to draw forward beyond a signal and block another route. You may end up causing a few minutes of delay to the service in question, and up to one or two others. But ultimately that's the worst that can happen.

Larger trains have multiple spaces. If (as said) that's the only space, I can see those who paid first class being unhappy about standard class passengers using first.

Ultimately it's not anyone's business but the customer in question and the operator of the train. If the operator offers to put the customer in first class and they accept, they're in first class, and that's that.

 

[danbarjon]

Ultimately it's not anyone's business but the customer in question and the operator of the train. If the operator offers to put the customer in first class and they accept, they're in first class, and that's that.

I agree with this. Nobody knows what someones ticket shows unless they shout about it or you are the ticket inspector, nobody knows if they've paid for First or Standard and quite frankly it is nobody's business.

 

[800001]

I regularly travel First Class and when wheelchair users have been upgraded it's not a case of the people who paid for First Class are unhappy for Standard passengers using First Class, if anything I feel unhappy that the wheelchair users can't travel in the class they originally wanted to travel in.


You can book assistance. You will automatically be upgraded to First Class based off personal experience being a companion. The information about the 5 car wheelchair spaces are on the website.

Assisted Travel

We're here to help customers with restricted mobility and offer assistance in everything from the train journey to booking tickets.

www.lner.co.uk

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