Wheelchair user unable to board Azuma in reverse configuration at Kings Cross

[EdChap]

A ridiculous and completely unnecessary situation that could and should have been sorted with minimum of fuss.

Whether it was the train manager on their own refusing or someone higher up they contacted, it is their job to deal with these issues and their obvious refusal to talk directly with the passenger they were denying travel to is in itself well below any standard that should be expected.

No doubt had this been a normal wheelchair user rather than someone with various senior railway officials phone numbers at hand they would have been bullied into being left behind.

Very well said

Wow the way this guy approaches the problem.. threatening to call the police. Incredible.

Mistakes happen but this is just making disabled people look really bad.

This is a shocking comment. It clearly show your attitude to disabled people. I guess we should hope you are never in this situation in the future.

Ed Chap

 

[robbeech]

but as this was the high frequency route to Leeds, what difference would half an hour have made

I could be mistaken here but I believe that was a Harrogate service, though it’s not clear if the intended destination was Harrogate. Clearly there would be faster options than waiting for 2 hours for the next direct train but that would involve a change at Leeds onto a Northern service and additional booking of assistance which the situation in the video shows cannot be relied upon.
Of course, to play devil’s advocate and to risk being considered cynical there is no way of knowing whether the destination of Harrogate on a direct train was chosen before or after a 5 car vice 10 arrived into King’s Cross in reverse formation on its inbound working.

 

[danbarjon]

The senior manager told me (in the video) that the train manager had been on the phone to colleagues before he arrived and that the decision to not allow repositioning was made as a result. So I suspect the decision was not made by her.

I hope you were okay after the incident as I know from personal experience a situation like that can stress you out.

 

[800001]

Edit- This was in reply to post 55.

Why should Doug have to travel half an hour later? I believe Doug travels to Horsforth/Harrogate, which is where this 5 car was going.
By departing 30 minutes later with a change at Leeds to a northern or an accessible taxi, would make him well over an hour late to his destination? Who is to say he did have to be somewhere by a certain time?
Would you accept that length of delay? When the train can be safely moved a few metres with the correct authority.

 

[robbeech]

Surely we should be designing stations for all, and all situations?

We should be. But when this is completely impractical, steps should taken and procedures put in place to mitigate potential issues.

 

[Haywain]

Surely we should be designing stations for all, and all situations?

Kings Cross is a Victorian building, and there is only so much that can be done to make everything needed for modern requirements fit.

 

[danbarjon]

Why should Doug have to travel half an hour later? I believe Doug travels to Horsforth/Harrogate, which is where this 5 car was going.
By departing 30 minutes later with a change at Leeds to a northern or an accessible taxi, would make him well over an hour late to his destination? Who is to say he did have to be somewhere by a certain time?
Would you accept that length of delay? When the train can be safely moved a few metres with the correct authority.

Totally agree. If nobody else suffered a delay then why should Doug.

 

[DanNCL]

LNER are capable of providing a good quality of assistance to those with disabilities as their Newcastle staff do so regularly both on and off train. I can't help thinking that a few days shadowing their Geordie colleagues would benefit some of those at Kings Cross, and by extension benefit the passengers.

Not every platform at Kings Cross has this problem with the escalator, platforms 0, 9 and 10 are all clear of it. Single 5 car 80xs can and sometimes do use the two suburban platforms.

 

[danbarjon]

LNER are capable of providing a good quality of assistance to those with disabilities as their Newcastle staff do so regularly both on and off train. I can't help thinking that a few days shadowing their Geordie colleagues would benefit some of those at Kings Cross, and by extension benefit the passengers.

Not every platform at Kings Cross has this problem with the escalator, platforms 0, 9 and 10 are all clear of it. Single 5 car 80xs can and sometimes do use the two suburban platforms.

I do agree LNER is superb at Newcastle 90% of the time.

 

[yorkie]

Totally agree. If nobody else suffered a delay then why should Doug.

For the avoidance of doubt, everyone did experience a delay as the train departed late and lost time en-route. Not enough to trigger Delay Repay though (unless anyone missed connections)

 

[danbarjon]

Everyone experienced a delay as the train departed late and lost time en-route. Not enough to trigger Delay Repay though (unless anyone missed connections)

What I meant was Doug doesn't need to suffer more of a delay than it would delay other people for them to move the train a few metres.

 

[Hadders]

I personally don't think that making such a public spectacle of demanding that something is done about this does the disabled travelling community any favors, okay if it was the Highland chieftain or the last train of the year before a lengthy Christmas shutdown necessitating huge diversions or 11 million light years on a replacement bus seated double decker then yes, but as this was the high frequency route to Leeds, what difference would half an hour have made especially if the company had offered a 100% refund and maybe even a taxi from destination to try and make up the time



I must however say and with no offence or disrespect intended to anyone on here who works there, but kings cross as a whole as a station is not the best for passengers with additional needs, you are more often made to feel like an inconvenience than a customer and whilst I acknowledge that station staff were not at fault this time, I find the attitude at London north Eastern railway towards passenger assist and associated issues to be a poor show compared to some can do attitude operators that absolutely do exist

While I have some sympathy with this position the reality is that cases like this, where disabled people end up suffering a lesser service, happen far too frequently. This is despite legislation being in place to say they should not suffer an inferior service.

Viewing videos like can be quite 'painful' and uncomfortable (I bet David Horn and the LNER exec will be cringing) it's only by exposing what happens in the real world that there is a chance that anything gets done about it. For every Doug how many people would have just put up with travelling on the next train, or being sent in a taxi.

A ridiculous and completely unnecessary situation that could and should have been sorted with minimum of fuss.

Whether it was the train manager on their own refusing or someone higher up they contacted, it is their job to deal with these issues and their obvious refusal to talk directly with the passenger they were denying travel to is in itself well below any standard that should be expected.

No doubt had this been a normal wheelchair user rather than someone with various senior railway officials phone numbers at hand they would have been bullied into being left behind.

It should also be questioned as to why this obvious issue with these 5 car sets being inaccessible at Kings Cross when run in reverse formation was not identified and sorted before they were brought into service. An astounding amount of pubic money has been spent on retrofitting accessible infrastructure onto the railway, yet this simple to resolve issue of a badly designed station upgrade interacting with a badly designed modern train at one of the country's major termini has been just ignored.

Absolutely agree with this.

Wow the way this guy approaches the problem.. threatening to call the police. Incredible.

Mistakes happen but this is just making disabled people look really bad.

While it can come across as a bit sensational what is a disabled person supposed to do? Unless they make a fuss they'd have ended up travelling on a later train, or in a taxi.

Incidents like this aren't a one-off either - there have been many cases of well known wheelchair users who have suffered lesser service.

This wasn't a mistake - things like a train in reverse formation happen. The issue is an institutionalised culture that wheelchair users can suffer a lesser service rather than come up with a simple, pragmatic solution. Thankfully in this case it did happen in the end, but only because Doug kicked up a fuss.

 

[Starmill]

For the avoidance of doubt, everyone did experience a delay as the train departed late and lost time en-route. Not enough to trigger Delay Repay though (unless anyone missed connections)

Of course, you could also argue the delay could have been shorter than it actually was, had the solution of drawing forward been arranged once the problem was found, rather than initially refusing the customer and then drawing forward anyway.

 

[yorkie]

Of course, you could also argue the delay could have been shorter than it actually was, had the solution of drawing forward been arranged once the problem was found, rather than initially refusing the customer and then drawing forward anyway.

Absolutely.

 

[Peter0124]

I don't think Doug should have to wait for the next train in this situation as it's not his fault.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I think the issue here it's the dependency on if there's a wheelchair user known in advance to do something, you wouldn't open the buffet only if someone booked in advance. The process should be that if the train is in reverse then it stops further forward, the disabled person should not in anyway get the impression they've caused extra work to accommodate them.

 

[Starmill]

This is despite legislation being in place to say they should not suffer an inferior service.

Exactly. The law is clear if your service descriminates based on a protected characteristic this must be in proportion and there must be reasonable adjustments.

Just because I'm not currently someone who'd say they're disabled, one day that could very well be me, and I would then expect that I'm not treated less favourably in line with my legal rights. This should go for everyone.

Viewing videos like can be quite 'painful' and uncomfortable (I bet David Horn and the LNER exec will be cringing) it's only by exposing what happens in the real world that there is a chance that anything gets done about it. For every Doug how many people would have just put up with travelling on the next train, or being sent in a taxi.

Exactly. Perhaps Doug could have chosen some slightly different words at times, I don't deny that. But that's not really of consequence and anyone can be "guilty" of just not quite choosing the right phrasing at at the time. The meaning behind it was perfectly reasonable and understandable by the company representatives. Luckily for them they did after a delay get it right.

 

[Snow1964]

If it's not a stupid question, why would the stop marker on the platform not be in a different place (even if it only applies to that class of train) if the current position means can't deploy the ramp.

I know the train was in reverse formation to normal on this occasion, but you would assume when the class was in introduced someone should have done a PTI (platform train intererface check), and that would have been in both orientations.

If not done in both orientations why are they allowed to call in reverse (untested) formation, or are they not certified in that direction. They are not symmetrical so testing only one way seems wrong.

Perhaps someone can explain how a 5car Azuma passed a PTI for that platform.

 

[Hadders]

I think the issue here it's the dependency on if there's a wheelchair user known in advance to do something, you wouldn't open the buffet only if someone booked in advance. The process should be that if the train is in reverse then it stops further forward, the disabled person should not in anyway get the impression they've caused extra work to accommodate them.

Understandably you, and several others, are solutionising about Kings Cross but missing the wider point.

Sometimes things happen that are out of the ordinary and unexpected. They can happen at any station at any time and the rules and procedures won’t always cover every single eventuality. The problem here was the institutional thought process that a person using a wheelchair didn’t matter and that they could simply be put in a later train or in a taxi. This isn’t acceptable and staff should be empowered to put the customer first in a situation like this.

To be fair many of the staff in the video were being pragmatic and identified a solution (that was eventually implemented) but unfortunately there are too many front line staff who fail to see the bigger picture and who end up causing reputations damage to the railway,l.

 

[Energy]

If it's not a stupid question, why would the stop marker on the platform not be in a different place (even if it only applies to that class of train) if the current position means can't deploy the ramp.

Nothing, the driver made it clear that one for a reverse 5 car could be installed. The issue just wasn't known about.

Criticism in this video isn't that this error occurred (it's difficult to test for every eventuality and not miss one) but the way it was handled, some staff were problem solving but the train manager would have rather inconvenienced Doug and put him on a train 30 mins later.

 

[YorksLad12]

Kings Cross is a Victorian building, and there is only so much that can be done to make everything needed for modern requirements fit.

You think the escalators are a modern requirement, but step-free boarding isn't? Interesting. The escalators are only there to get people down from the footbridge; people could just as easily use the main gate line to reach the platforms.

We should be. But when this is completely impractical, steps should taken and procedures put in place to mitigate potential issues.

And agreed. But those procedures should have been considered in advance. If people here can think about different stop boards or curved/right-angled ramps, 'the railway' should have.

 

[Christmas]

It was infuriating to watch the video. This is what happens when management with little or no operational experience interfere. The driver, guard and signaller could have sorted it out between themselves without involving people who are only interested in delays, risk, reports and never using their own initiative or common sense.

Doug was quite right to be firm with the wet manager who clearly didn't understand that the train wasn't going anywhere until he was on it!

I wish Doug would allow comments on his videos as by and large he would find most viewers supporting him.

 

[RobShipway]

Why should wheelchair users have to accept a lower quality journey experience? Why shouldn't they advocate for themselves? The idea that a wheelchair user should just accept a delay and not kick up a fuss is part of the problem and is a pretty poor attitude. If this is happening to Doug, who is well informed on legal principles and company policies in this area, and is a strong and vocal advocate, then how many times is it happening unseen and unheard to others?

100% agree.

Understandably you, and several others, are solutionising about Kings Cross but missing the wider point.

Sometimes things happen that are out of the ordinary and unexpected. They can happen at any station at any time and the rules and procedures won’t always cover every single eventuality. The problem here was the institutional thought process that a person using a wheelchair didn’t matter and that they could simply be put in a later train or in a taxi. This isn’t acceptable and staff should be empowered to put the customer first in a situation like this.

To be fair many of the staff in the video were being pragmatic and identified a solution (that was eventually implemented) but unfortunately there are too many front line staff who fail to see the bigger picture and who end up causing reputations damage to the railway,l.

100% agree.

Although as I said in a post earlier in this thread, in the 21st Century the disabled should not have to be using a ramp to get into a train. The doors of the trains should be at platform level and if that had been the case, there would not have been the issue in the first place:

Who will help those with limited ability to walk to be able to board the trains in the future?

With many TOC's following the lead of Thameslink with just having driver only operated trains and ticket offices at many stations to be closed, how are people that currently need a ramp to access the trains? Will it be a case that drivers will need to be helping to assist passengers in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Understandably you, and several others, are solutionising about Kings Cross but missing the wider point.

Sometimes things happen that are out of the ordinary and unexpected. They can happen at any station at any time and the rules and procedures won’t always cover every single eventuality. The problem here was the institutional thought process that a person using a wheelchair didn’t matter and that they could simply be put in a later train or in a taxi. This isn’t acceptable and staff should be empowered to put the customer first in a situation like this.

To be fair many of the staff in the video were being pragmatic and identified a solution (that was eventually implemented) but unfortunately there are too many front line staff who fail to see the bigger picture and who end up causing reputations damage to the railway,l.

Totally agree, but what I'm getting at is there's far to many situations where disabled user, not just on the railway btw, have to use the side entrance or in this case have to delay the train. Yes a one off might happen when no one has thought about it but it should be a 1 off and not happen again

 

[yorkie]

I wish Doug would allow comments on his videos as by and large he would find most viewers supporting him.

It's a whole different subject really, but Youtube comments are a bit of a nightmare, so I totally understand why they would be disabled. In any case, Doug is a member of this forum and has posted in this thread, so will no doubt read any comments here. He's also active on Twitter.

So that's at least two places where the matter is being extensively discussed, so probably no need for it to also be discussed on Youtube, which would no doubt be quite stressful, given the nature of many comments on Youtube.

 

[43066]

While it's easy to solutionise about Kings Cross these sort of issues will arise across the network, often unexpected.

Drivers, Train Managers, Singallers and Control Staff are highly paid members of staff and should be expected and empowered to come up with pragmatic solutions to these sort of problems that will arise from time to time. Clearly this needs to be done in a safe manner and within the rules.

'Stuff happens' from time to time and you have to sort it out. Shrugging shoulders and saying 'no' shouldn't be the first option.

I don’t think lack of a solution was the issue here; the obvious one was eventually used.

The complicating factors were what was said to the TM (possibly the videoing, possibly the language used around creating a security incident). It has been suggested upthread, I think by the passenger in the video, that LNER management might initially have told the TM not to reposition the train, presumably because they wanted to avoid delays.

That seems more plausible than a TM deciding not to carry a wheelchair passenger for no reason, and it may well be that the TM eventually decided to override the instruction and reposition the train anyway. We simply don’t know what was said to the TM and by whom.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, there is not enough information to form a conclusion at this stage.

LNER are investigating and no doubt Doug will post an update on here once there is one.

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think lack of a solution was the issue here; the obvious one was eventually used.

The complicating factors were what was said to the TM (possibly the videoing, possibly the language used around creating a security incident). It has been suggested upthread, I think by the passenger in the video, that LNER management might initially have told the TM not to reposition the train, presumably because they wanted to avoid delays.

That seems more plausible than a TM deciding not to carry a wheelchair passenger for no reason, and it may well be that the TM eventually decided to override the instruction and reposition the train anyway. We simply don’t know what was said to the TM and by whom.

Indeed. We don’t know whether the initial decision not to move the train was the Train Manager’s or someone instructing the Train Manager not to move it. That said, it doesn’t matter - whoever made the decision lacked an understanding of the situation and was simply prepared to make the wheelchair user wait for the next train. That isn’t acceptable and is now causing reputations damage to LNER and the wider rail industry.

 

[43066]

That said, it doesn’t matter - whoever made the decision lacked an understanding of the situation and was simply prepared to make the wheelchair user wait for the next train. That isn’t acceptable and is now causing reputations damage to LNER and the wider rail industry.

Fully agreed.

 

[Haywain]

You think the escalators are a modern requirement, but step-free boarding isn't? Interesting.

I cannot see how you can read that into my comment and I would therefore thank you for not twisting my words. I said there is a problem with fitting everything in to the available space and the events that this thread is concerned with prove that.

The doors of the trains should be at platform level and if that had been the case, there would not have been the issue in the first place.

This is absolutely the ideal solution but we are very many years from seeing it happen. Where it is available (Greater Anglia, Thameslink core) it works very well.