When a Zones 1-9 Travelcard isn't a Zones 1-9 Travelcard...

[185143]

Had an issue this morning which I'm not sure how is best to deal with. We went to a Southern ticket office and asked for a Zones 1-9 travelcard. I've had one before, which I'm pretty certain was from the same ticket office and it was issued as an inboundary travelcard, I think from Chesham or somewhere as a Zone 1-6 Travelcard route "AAA Zones 7-9" (or similar).

I was asked where we were going so I said Dartford as that was our first destination beyond zone 6. After initially being sold a +High Speed travelcard, we were charged £9.70 each (which TfL lists as the correct railcard fare for a Z1-9 Travelcard) and went on our way. The ticket however doesn't mention Z7-9, merely just NOT HIGH SPEED.

So I went to the Excess Fares office at London Bridge who seemed to think that we didn't have Z7-9 validity to anywhere other than Dartford. I politely declined the offer of a £7.25 BZ6-9 return which they offered to sell me, despite agreeing we'd essentially been shafted. They had tried to "excess" it to a LBG-Z9 travelcard but computer said no.

Any advice on how to get this sorted? Also, the barrier at Dartford retained the ticket although it was returned with an explanation that "It'll keep it when you come back from London".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you post a photo of what you were issued?

 

[185143]

This is it.

 

[furlong]

So East Croydon issued that for a journey TO and then FROM Dartford? While you were asking for something like https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=AMR&dest=0035&rlc=YNG&rte=40232&tkt=ODT ? I think you'll need to put in a complaint and suggest some retraining!

 

[MikeWh]

It's a sad coincidence that a Dartford to zones 1-6 off-peak day travelcard costs the same as a zones 1-9 off-peak day travelcard. The HS1 issue at Dartford precludes the additional routeing required for AAA z7-9.

Take it to another ticket office and try to get them to excess it to a <zone 9 station> to z1-6. Only stations in zones 7-9 will work.

 

[swt_passenger]

So East Croydon issued that for a journey TO and then FROM Dartford? While you were asking for something like https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=AMR&dest=0035&rlc=YNG&rte=40232&tkt=ODT ? I think you'll need to put in a complaint and suggest some retraining!

At least that explains straightaway why the ticket was retained by the barriers, as it was the end of the return journey…

 

[185143]

So East Croydon issued that for a journey TO and then FROM Dartford? While you were asking for something like https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=AMR&dest=0035&rlc=YNG&rte=40232&tkt=ODT ? I think you'll need to put in a complaint and suggest some retraining!

Yes, that's the ticket I wanted. And exactly what happened! Presumably the complaint needs to go to Southern? London Bridge tried to excess it as I mentioned, but the computer wouldn't let him. Although presumably the origin was put in as London Bridge rather than somewhere in zone 9?

As an aside... how did you know where I bought it?

 

[island]

As an aside... how did you know where I bought it?

The code for East Croydon, 5355, is printed on the ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Take it to another ticket office and try to get them to excess it to a <zone 9 station> to z1-6. Only stations in zones 7-9 will work.

It isn't possible to excess a Travelcard. I would suggest buying the correct ticket* (and making a point of asking for it specifically in future) and requesting a refund on the incorrect ticket unless the OP can get to a Southern ticket office where they might exchange the tickets.


*Amersham to Zones 1-6.

 

[T-Karmel]

As an aside... how did you know where I bought it?

Ticket contains much more information than you think it does It easily helps guards or revenue team to check if customer is saying truth about their ticket or not

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is it.

That's an outboundary 1-6 Travelcard and is not valid for your return journey as you can't use the outward after the return (though I believe the Travelcard component remains valid so you could use it with a single to the boundary). Definitely an issuing error.

 

[PeterC]

I may be wrong but I thought that a pukka 1-9 travelcard could only be bought from LUL and possibly only from a zone 7,8 or 9 station.

 

[furlong]

As the others have said, if you went back to the original station, it should be able to refund then reissue. The problem with anything else is the complexity involved in the accounting systems. Sometimes another ticket office from the same company will agree to do it, or very rarely a clerk in another unrelated ticket office might be persuaded to do what's right for the customer regardless of the administrative issues it leads to.

If you do have to buy a replacement ticket, you should try to ask the issuing clerk to mark the old one to indicate it needs refunding, link it to the replacement, and invalidate its use for any further travel. Then when you ask for a full refund, there's no way they can argue that someone else might have continued to use the old ticket while you used the new one - only one could be used at once and the two are paired together.

 

[Starmill]

As others have suggested, I'd recommend asking specifically for a ticket from Amersham in the future, or alternatively buying from a London Underground ticket machine.

 

[ainsworth74]

I may be wrong but I thought that a pukka 1-9 travelcard could only be bought from LUL and possibly only from a zone 7,8 or 9 station.

This is a Zone 1 - 6 Travelcard which comes with additional validity to Zones 7 - 9. Its a perfectly legitimate ticket. But the additional validity usually appears in the Route field.

 

[PeterC]

This is a Zone 1 - 6 Travelcard which comes with additional validity to Zones 7 - 9. Its a perfectly legitimate ticket. But the additional validity usually appears in the Route field.

But that isn't what the OP was sold which is the whole point of the discussion.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Knowledgebase says that Dartford Travelcards should include validity in Zones 7-9, but Southeastern have set both "Plus High Speed" and "Not Valid on HS1" fares for some reason, thus precluding the use of "AAA Zones 7-9" in the route field.

 

[miklcct]

This thread doesn't make sense to me. What does "AAA Zones 7-9" mean in the route field? The ticket shown seems to be an outboundary travelcard from Dartford to zones 1 to 6 not valid on HS1.

 

[Haywain]

This thread doesn't make sense to me. What does "AAA Zones 7-9" mean in the route field? The ticket shown seems to be an outboundary travelcard from Dartford to zones 1 to 6 not valid on HS1.

AAA means ‘also available at’. It’s used to extend validity of a ticket.

 

[miklcct]

AAA means ‘also available at’. It’s used to extend validity of a ticket.

So why do a travelcard need to be issued as a zone 1-6 travelcard to a station "AAA Zones 7-9" but not directly as a "zone 1-9 travelcard"? And if the named station on the ticket is a zone 7-9 station to zone 1-6 AAA zones 7-9, does that mean unlimited travel between zones 1-9 that allows you to enter and exit zone 6 for an unlimited time, or even return to the named station and continue the journey as you wish?

 

[CyrusWuff]

So why do a travelcard need to be issued as a zone 1-6 travelcard to a station "AAA Zones 7-9" but not directly as a "zone 1-9 travelcard"? And if the named station on the ticket is a zone 7-9 station to zone 1-6 AAA zones 7-9, does that mean unlimited travel between zones 1-9 that allows you to enter and exit zone 6, or even return to the named station and continue the journey as you wish?

Because Zones 7-9 (known as Zones A-D prior to January 2008) don't have location codes in the National Rail fares database, so have to be fudged using the "route" field when issued by NR stations.

As for why such location codes were never allocated, I suspect it's because you need to create two locations for each zonal combination: One for Travelcards and one for point to point tickets. So to add the relevant combinations for those three additional zones would involve 48 extra locations by my reckoning.

As such, it's a lot easier to just use the route field and put up with anomalies like Dartford.

 

[Haywain]

So why do a travelcard need to be issued as a zone 1-6 travelcard to a station "AAA Zones 7-9" but not directly as a "zone 1-9 travelcard"? And if the named station on the ticket is a zone 7-9 station to zone 1-6 AAA zones 7-9, does that mean unlimited travel between zones 1-9 that allows you to enter and exit zone 6 for an unlimited time, or even return to the named station and continue the journey as you wish?

AAA Zones 7-9 allows the unlimited travel that a Travelcard requires. Without that it would appear to be a standard outboundary Travelcard.

 

[paul1609]

The problem is that Dartford and Swanley aren't in any London Zone it's just that the Outboundary Travelcards from there are also available in London Zones 7 to 9.
So East Croydon or any other station cant actually sell you a travel card that is valid for you to travel and return from Dartford.

 

[MikeWh]

The problem is that Dartford and Swanley aren't in any London Zone it's just that the Outboundary Travelcards from there are also available in London Zones 7 to 9.
So East Croydon or any other station cant actually sell you a travel card that is valid for you to travel and return from Dartford.

Not quite. They are both in zone 8. There are/were different problems at each station. Swanley can issue travelcards with "AAA Z7-9" but the original Swanley to zones 1-6 seasons was more expensive than the zone 1-8 equivalents - it seems to have finally disappeared from the database.

Dartford has "not valid on hs1" and "plus hs1" versions of every ticket because it is acceptable to travel via Gravesend to access HS1. That is why it cannot be used as the origin for a z1-9 travelcard because they require a different usage of the route field.

 

[paul1609]

Not quite. They are both in zone 8. There are/were different problems at each station. Swanley can issue travelcards with "AAA Z7-9" but the original Swanley to zones 1-6 seasons was more expensive than the zone 1-8 equivalents - it seems to have finally disappeared from the database.

Dartford has "not valid on hs1" and "plus hs1" versions of every ticket because it is acceptable to travel via Gravesend to access HS1. That is why it cannot be used as the origin for a z1-9 travelcard because they require a different usage of the route field.

I bow to your superior knowledge! Is there actually a map that shows them in zone 8?

 

[MikeWh]

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/images/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.gif

 

[miklcct]

Not quite. They are both in zone 8. There are/were different problems at each station. Swanley can issue travelcards with "AAA Z7-9" but the original Swanley to zones 1-6 seasons was more expensive than the zone 1-8 equivalents - it seems to have finally disappeared from the database.

Dartford has "not valid on hs1" and "plus hs1" versions of every ticket because it is acceptable to travel via Gravesend to access HS1. That is why it cannot be used as the origin for a z1-9 travelcard because they require a different usage of the route field.

Can you further explain this why don't other stations have this problem? Is Dartford the only station in zones 7-9 which the HS1 is a permitted route into London?

 

[MikeWh]

Can you further explain this why don't other stations have this problem? Is Dartford the only station in zones 7-9 which the HS1 is a permitted route into London?

There are only two stations in zone 8 in SE London/NW Kent. You have to go further out to Rochester to join HS1 from Swanley. There are no stations in either zones 7 or 9 in this area.

 

[miklcct]

That's an outboundary 1-6 Travelcard and is not valid for your return journey as you can't use the outward after the return (though I believe the Travelcard component remains valid so you could use it with a single to the boundary). Definitely an issuing error.

An outboundary travelcard entitles the holder to make a journey from the origin station on a permitted route to any boundary stations in the zone, then unlimited travel in the zone, and finally return to the origin station from any boundary stations, right?

So, if my intended usage is in a reverse direction, starting in the zones, to get unlimited travel within the zones, combined with one trip to a station out of the zones and back into the zones (possibly into a different boundary station) during the day, what kind of ticket should I get?

 

[MikeWh]

So, if my intended usage is in a reverse direction, starting in the zones, to get unlimited travel within the zones, combined with one trip to a station out of the zones and back into the zones (possibly into a different boundary station) during the day, what kind of ticket should I get?

A zones 1-6 travelcard and a boundary zone 6 to outboundary station return.