When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson

Xenophon PCDGS

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May I ask you a question, because your posts about this matter seem to focus on irrelevant details.

Do you think Boris Johnson is an asset to our country?
I refuse to answer this because you state above that matters of legality that I have raised in previous postings are irrelevant. But is it not the case that Johnson stands charged with the breach of a legal matter. You cannot have it both ways,
 
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To quote Robert Peston in The Spectator

"The point is – and I feel foolish even saying this to you, because it is so obvious – everybody in the country knew parties were banned at the time. And since Boris Johnson was the main author of the rules designed to shield us from Covid-19, he more than anyone else should have known parties were not just discouraged, but illegal.

But apparently – and in his interview he says this repeatedly – he can't be blamed, either for the party happening or for his attendance at it, because 'nobody said to me this is an event that is in breach of the rules'.

So what on earth is poor Sue Gray supposed to make of this? Does the PM think she'll let him off because he wishes to be seen as the equivalent of a five-year-old who could not be expected to know that booze plus sausage rolls equals party, unless someone spells it out to him? That doesn't seem credible."

 

AM9

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I refuse to answer this because you state above that matters of legality that I have raised in previous postings are irrelevant. But is it not the case that Johnson stands charged with the breach of a legal matter. You cannot have it both ways,
He effectively risks being censured for 'misleading the house' which in parliamentary terms is a serious matter and would attract a suspension from Parliament. That would be a constitutional crisis of seismic proportions if the party ever let it come to that (which they clearly wouldn't).
 

gg1

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I am teetotal. I now wonder how many future Heads of State could face removal from office on account of transgressions that carried a penalty of a fixed penalty notice... :rolleyes:

It depends. If the transgression related to a breach of temporary rules the hypothetical Head of State had themselves authorised, had repeatedly gone on national TV specifically to inform the nation we all MUST follow (even at the expense of seeing terminally ill loved ones), where the rules were unprecedented in many people's lifetimes, where the rules were clear and understood by most mature adults and where the rules were THE dominant news items and topic of conversation in the period leading up to said transgression, then yes they absolutely should face removal from office.

The breach of the rules themselves is secondary, the key issue, and the reason he should either resign or be kicked out by his own party, is the gross hypocrisy and contempt for the general populace shown by a leader who wilfully breaks his own rules after repeatedly telling us all we must follow them regardless of the disruption it causes to our lives.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The breach of the rules themselves is secondary, the key issue, and the reason he should either resign or be kicked out by his own party, is the gross hypocrisy and contempt for the general populace shown by a leader who wilfully breaks his own rules after repeatedly telling us all we must follow them regardless of the disruption it causes to our lives.
When was the last time that a British politician was charged with gross hypocrisy and under which part of any English law is that deemed to be an indictable offence?

To quote Robert Peston in The Spectator
Casting ones mind back to the days when "beer and sandwiches" were de rigeur at 10 Downing Street when a Labour Prime Minister held meetings with senior Trades Union officials, no one would dare say that a party was being held.
 
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gg1

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When was the last time that a British politician was charged with gross hypocrisy and under which part of any English law is that deemed to be an indictable offence?
They haven't and it's not, the question is not one of legality but of suitability to hold high office. I believe that part of the responsibility of those we elect to govern us should be to lead by example.


Casting ones mind back to the days when "beer and sandwiches" were de rigeur at 10 Downing Street when a Labour Prime Minister held meetings with senior Trades Union officials, no one would dare say that a party was being held.
At the time no one particularly cared because public gatherings weren't banned.
 

87 027

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They haven't and it's not, the question is not one of legality but of suitability to hold high office.
More specifically the nub of the matter is whether the PM has breached the Ministerial Code by knowingly misleading Parliament.

From the Institute for Government (https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/ministerial-code)

What is the ministerial code?

The ministerial code is the set of rules and principles which outline the standards of conduct for government ministers.

There are separate codes for ministers for the UK government and devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The codes all include the ‘overarching duty’ of ministers to comply with the law and to abide by the Seven Principles of Public Life, a set of ethical standards which apply to all holders of public office.

However it does not follow that a breach must end in resignation

How is the ministerial code enforced?

All of the codes give the final authority for decisions about action to be taken to the prime or first minister, or, in Northern Ireland, the relevant ‘nominating officer’ for a particular ministers’ party. As the decision about who may be appointed or dismissed as a minister is considered a fundamental power under the discretion of first ministers or the prime minister, there is strong resistance to changing how ministerial codes are enforced.

There is now often an expectation that breaching the code will lead to dismissal, though it is not a foregone conclusion. The code only says that ministers “will be expected to offer their resignation to the prime minister” if they “knowingly mislead parliament” – it does not set out any other sanctions for any other breaches of the code.

The most recent minister in the UK government to resign over a breach of the code was Damian Green in December 2017. The prime minister referred Green for investigation by the then cabinet secretary Jeremy Heywood, and when the ensuing investigation found that he had twice breached the honesty requirement of the Seven Principles of Public Life outlined in the code she asked him to resign as first secretary of state.

However, in November 2020, the prime minister’s independent adviser Alex Allan found that the home secretary, Priti Patel, had broken the ministerial code by bullying officials but the prime minister disagreed and chose to keep Patel in place. Allan resigned apparently in protest at this decision.
 

MattRat

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I think you're missing the point - it's not simply about the offence, which is legally a minor one. It's the fact he's apparently lied to parliament, and the strength of public feeling from a lot of people who gave up a lot to follow the rules... when the person in charge of setting the rules wasn't following them and claimed not to know.
Well, they weren't minor to the poor who had to pay the thousands of pounds fines, although that probably still fits in with your argument.
He effectively risks being censured for 'misleading the house' which in parliamentary terms is a serious matter and would attract a suspension from Parliament. That would be a constitutional crisis of seismic proportions if the party ever let it come to that (which they clearly wouldn't).
It's him or the rest of them. Scapegoat him, or the digging continues. I don't like it, but what would you do if you were them?
 

AM9

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Well, they weren't minor to the poor who had to pay the thousands of pounds fines, although that probably still fits in with your argument.

It's him or the rest of them. Scapegoat him, or the digging continues. I don't like it, but what would you do if you were them?
Given that all most government MPs work for is to stay in office, (especially true of this lot) they will only support a PM as long as it fits in with their ambitions. Scapegoat isn't really appropriate here as the PM has managed to implicate himself by his conflicting responses to each 'allleged' report of mismanagement/inappropriate behaviour.
 

MattRat

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Given that all most government MPs work for is to stay in office, (especially true of this lot) they will only support a PM as long as it fits in with their ambitions. Scapegoat isn't really appropriate here as the PM has managed to implicate himself by his conflicting responses to each 'allleged' report of mismanagement/inappropriate behaviour.
Well, he's having all the blame pinned on him, when it was a team effort (the only thing they've been a team for, lol). What would you call that, if not a scapegoat?
 

AM9

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Well, he's having all the blame pinned on him, when it was a team effort (the only thing they've been a team for, lol). What would you call that, if not a scapegoat?
Not really, - he has slightly more power and influence than his underlings. If Svengali Cummings continues with his weekly reveals, telling the truth might be a better strategy than trying to pretend that he didn't know the rules that he launched on the nation. It was to be expected that his regime would include a lot of waffle when the going got a bit sticky, - we've had a preview of that when he was London Mayor, but his performance over the last 18 months under far brighter lights (including the almost completely right-wing press) has been farcical yet shameful.
 

MattRat

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Not really, - he has slightly more power and influence than his underlings. If Svengali Cummings continues with his weekly reveals, telling the truth might be a better strategy than trying to pretend that he didn't know the rules that he launched on the nation. It was to be expected that his regime would include a lot of waffle when the going got a bit sticky, - we've had a preview of that when he was London Mayor, but his performance over the last 18 months under far brighter lights (including the almost completely right-wing press) has been farcical yet shameful.
Considering it's Johnson, he probably didn't know, lol. As for the press, there are left wing and right wing press, and trying to pretend it only goes one way isn't a smart thing to do, it just says what your own political bent is.
 

XAM2175

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Can you categorically confirm what you have said above about Johnson being the person who set the rules or would that have had to be someone with precise legal knowledge to ensure conformity was made, of which I am sure that Johnson has very little.
Is there any depth to which you will not lower yourself in defence of Conservative politicians?
 

southern442

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13 minutes before PMQs, Bury South MP Christian Wakeford has been reported as crossing the benches to defect to Labour.
 

brad465

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13 minutes before PMQs, Bury South MP Christian Wakeford has been reported as crossing the benches to defect to Labour.
It's breaking news on the BBC live feed:


Tory MP defects to Labour​

One of the 2019 intake of Tory MPs has walked out of the party to join the Labour benches.
Christian Wakeford, who took the red wall seat of Bury South in the last election, had already called for Boris Johnson to go, revealing he had put in a letter of no confidence last week.
But he has now quit the party and joined Labour.

I wonder if this invalidates the letter he's reported to have sent? If it does though I suspect his defection is ammunition for even more letters to be sent by other MPs, so may turbo charge Johnson's exit.
 

GusB

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I'm watching a very uncomfortable-looking Andrew Bowie squirm live on BBC news as he's told that a conservative MP has defected to Labour.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Is there any depth to which you will not lower yourself in defence of Conservative politicians?
Obviously you are much younger than I, who remembers the 1970s when many Labour afficionados were doing exactly the same of what you accuse me of in defence of their own party, especially in the end of the decade Winter of Discontent.

All I have been highlighting on this thread is legal matters appertaining to the matter under discussion rather than concentrate upon non-legal matters such as hypocrisy that a number of contributors seem unaware of as not being part of the current Laws on the Statute Book.
 
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brad465

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I'm watching a very uncomfortable-looking Andrew Bowie squirm live on BBC news as he's told that a conservative MP has defected to Labour.
Where exactly is this? I've tried searching the BBC News channel and a few others but can't find any interview of him around the time of your post and the time the defection was announced.
 

XAM2175

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Obviously you are much younger than I, who remembers the 1970s when many Labour afficionados were doing exactly the same of what you accuse me of in defence of their own party, especially in the end of the decade Winter of Discontent.
I would - and do - criticise them for it too.

All I have been highlighting on this thread is legal matters appertaining to the matter under discussion rather than concentrate upon non-legal matters such as hypocrisy that a number of contributors seem unaware of as not being part of the current Laws on the Statute Book.
I don't believe any member here, of any persuasion, has attempted to claim that hypocrisy is a crime. My point remains that you personally appear, in this thread and a number before it, to be willing to excuse any and all matters of poor conduct by Conservative members without regard for ethics and morality on the basis that they're not being actively criminal.
 

edwin_m

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Several ministers were forced out of office during the Major government when they were discovered to be having affairs. That isn't a crime but smacks of hypocrisy, particularly when the apparent aim of the government was seen as a return to traditional values.

Several MPs were pilloried in the court of public opinion after questionable expenses claims in 2009. A couple of them were found to have broken the law but most hadn't.

Its perfectly possible to be politically ruined without breaking any laws.
 

GusB

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Where exactly is this? I've tried searching the BBC News channel and a few others but can't find any interview of him around the time of your post and the time the defection was announced.
Apologies - it's Politics Live on BBC 2 that I've been watching.
 

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