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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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DynamicSpirit

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it feels a little different here though, especially as the EU logo was usually just a small logo on a plaque or similar. Bit different to a massive multi story union flag.

2 years ago I was travelling a bit in SE Italy and noticed a couple of places where the EU was giving funding to regenerate the area, and EU flags were very prominently plastered about those the places, accompanied by explanations of the EU funding. Even one of the trains I went on had inside the carriage a notice about how the EU had helped fund that route - accompanied by an EU flag. I did wonder why the EU so strongly advertises itself in Italy but had never really done so in UK.

But it really feels the only reason Westminster is putting the huge union flags around in both Wales and Scotland is to either stamp its authority on places that it feels are starting to drift too far away, or annoy those who want independent nations (or if not full independence, want to be less controlled by Westminster) - neither reasons are good ones.

That's a perfect example of the point I was making in the Labour thread about people on the left constantly and needlessly inferring bad motives by the Tories. Looking at it rationally, putting a flag up purely to annoy a portion of the electorate would be a totally stupid thing to do, not least because the main result would be to lose you votes without any corresponding benefit. Seriously, no Government with half a brain cell is going to deliberately do that, so I think you can be very certain that was not the motivation behind putting up union jacks. A more likely motive is simply that many people in the UK - and particularly people on the right - believe that flying the flag that shows who you are is intrinsically a good thing - and I suspect that's a more likely candidate for the motivation behind putting the flag on Government buildings. The Government also explicitly said a couple of months ago that they wanted the Union Jack flown on projects that the Government has invested in simply in order that people know where the funding has come from: I don't see any reason not to take that statement at face value.
 
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Dai Corner

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2 years ago I was travelling a bit in SE Italy and noticed a couple of places where the EU was giving funding to regenerate the area, and EU flags were very prominently plastered about those the places, accompanied by explanations of the EU funding. Even one of the trains I went on had inside the carriage a notice about how the EU had helped fund that route - accompanied by an EU flag. I did wonder why the EU so strongly advertises itself in Italy but had never really done so in UK.
Possibly you don't frequent areas of the UK which received EU funding?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Possibly you don't frequent areas of the UK which received EU funding?

That's possible I guess. Were there (before Brexit) areas of the UK that had received EU funding and where the EU flag was plastered all over the places that had been improved? If so, where?
 

Typhoon

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I was reading Politico's London Playbook today and there was an interesting tidbit in it which perhaps might suggest when it will all go wrong for Johnson and the Tories (well, in the medium/long term anyway):




I wonder if the problem that will eventually be their undoing is alienating a large proportion of younger voters who may not grow up and switch allegiance to the Tories as previous generations have done so? I seem to recall that polling after the last two General Elections indicated that a plurality of under-50s voted for parties other than the Tories whilst over-50s voted for the Tories (with the divide becoming more extreme the older or younger you looked i.e. in the over 70s it might be 75% Tory and in the 18-24s it might be 75% Labour). I wonder if that tipping point age has increased in recent years? Which might be a problem if more and more of todays 20 and 30 somethings don't switch allegiance.

After all what's the pitch to win them over? From the above quote it looks like we're getting dinged again to pick up the tab for older people (you stop paying NI once you reach State Pension age even if you continue to work). Benefits for working age people have been slashed to to bone whilst benefits for pensioners have been fairly well protected. We locked down because older people were dying in their thousands and young people, particularly school children, have born the brunt of that. Many young people feel locked out of the housing market unless they can rely on mum & dad to help them get their first foot on the ladder.*

So where's the pitch to make a young person today want to vote Tory when they reach 40 or 50 or 60? Is this perhaps the problem they're storing up for themselves that will be their eventual undoing?

*Yes there's a fair few generalisations in there.

Interesting source, and hypothesis.

Unfortunately, by the time their vote really counts (about 10-12 years time), Johnson will be a rather sad figure who keeps cropping up on GB News ruffling his (thinning) hair, monopolising the discussion, telling the decreasing number of viewers how things were so much better in his day (which may even be true). The Tories will have moved on. It will be a more traditional Tory in charge, someone George Osbourne would be able to write enthusiastic leaders about if he was still at the Standard. How many votes the bumbling Boris gets from the young, I'm not sure but it will be more than May got and more than his successors are likely to get.

Pitch to win them over: up the help given to first time buyers (which is no more than a tax payer subsidy for over priced property). Its already getting out of hand, how much longer the tax payer (them and, for the moment, me) can subsidise them when the money is just going to developers. If it isn't adding bonuses to savings or enabling loans, it will be shared ownership which depends on house prices going up. Quote from Jenrick
Together we can turn ‘Generation Rent’ into ‘Generation Buy’.
That will be pushed. I can see more (but not enough) building taking place. 'More' so they can champion home ownership and crow about house builds, 'not enough' to keep prices rising and to be able to continue to blame local authorities for holding back the aspirations of the young. Homes will be built in town centres and also in green fields (despite objections) so that the properties are more attractive to the young (who wants to live on an old gas works?) In Jenrick's stirring script, he writes
For too many people, no matter how hard they work, home ownership can seem out of reach. One of the biggest divides in our country has been between those who can afford their own home and those who cannot.
missing completely those on zero hours or other casual labour (who have really suffered of late) who will never get a mortgage! Next to nothing will be done about rents to encourage more into home ownership.

I wonder if they're perhaps getting hold of some voters earlier now, on cultural topics more than economic. I seem to recall we have at least two or three posters here who are in their early twenties - and earlier - who have been open about Conservative voters along those lines.
I think you are right. I've noticed more and more young Conservative activists - certainly more young councillors than Labour. This is Labour taking the votes of some for granted, while the Conservatives offer them a (possible) route to a brighter future. Labour needs to start talking to young people (your average young people, not the shouty ones) and start engaging them otherwise the Conservatives won't need to worry about converting former Labour voters, there won't be many.

(NI - I have seen suggestions that axing the upper age for contributing is being considered to help pay towards social care. Whether it was just for those in work or all wasn't clear. Sorry, can't remember where I saw it.)
 

Dai Corner

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That's possible I guess. Were there (before Brexit) areas of the UK that had received EU funding and where the EU flag was plastered all over the places that had been improved? If so, where?
The South Wales Valleys was one such area. Here's an example

The sign reads "EU funds: investing in Wales" in Welsh and English and carries the EU and Welsh Government logos.


EBBW VALE, UNITED KINGDOM - MARCH 07: A car passes a European Union funding sign on the newly opened A465 near Ebbw Vale on March 7, 2016 in Blaenau Gwent, Wales. The West Wales and the Valleys region, which covers 15 local authority areas, has been identified as the poorest region in the whole of north Western Europe, with large swathes of Wales poorer than parts of Bulgaria, Romania and Poland and four-and-a-half times less prosperous than central London, highlighting the fact that the UK now has Europe's highest inequality of wealth within the European Union. To address this, from 2014 to 2020, Wales will benefit from around £1.8bn EU European Structural Funds investment which comprises funding from two separate European Structural Funds: the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and the European Social Fund (ESF). The ERDF funds are used for a range of things including urban development, research and innovation, competitiveness, use of renewable energy and energy efficiency, connectivity and urban development. The ESF funds are to be directed to tackling poverty through more sustainable employment, increasing skills and tackling youth unemployment in the region. (Photo by Matt Cardy/Getty Images)
 
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Busaholic

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2 years ago I was travelling a bit in SE Italy and noticed a couple of places where the EU was giving funding to regenerate the area, and EU flags were very prominently plastered about those the places, accompanied by explanations of the EU funding. Even one of the trains I went on had inside the carriage a notice about how the EU had helped fund that route - accompanied by an EU flag. I did wonder why the EU so strongly advertises itself in Italy but had never really done so in UK.
Because its agents in the U.K. who had both the responsibility and wherewithal to put up those messages chose, in many cases, to either not do so or to downplay the amount. There certainly were places in e.g. Cornwall that did their best to signify its importance, but not enough to persuade the Cornish to vote 'Remain' and thus ensure its continuation. Schadenfreude.
 

edwin_m

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2 years ago I was travelling a bit in SE Italy and noticed a couple of places where the EU was giving funding to regenerate the area, and EU flags were very prominently plastered about those the places, accompanied by explanations of the EU funding. Even one of the trains I went on had inside the carriage a notice about how the EU had helped fund that route - accompanied by an EU flag.
EU plasters its flag on projects where it improves a region.

UK plasters its flag on the building that collects people's taxes.

I wonder which is the more successful strategy?

That's a perfect example of the point I was making in the Labour thread about people on the left constantly and needlessly inferring bad motives by the Tories. Looking at it rationally, putting a flag up purely to annoy a portion of the electorate would be a totally stupid thing to do, not least because the main result would be to lose you votes without any corresponding benefit. Seriously, no Government with half a brain cell is going to deliberately do that, so I think you can be very certain that was not the motivation behind putting up union jacks. A more likely motive is simply that many people in the UK - and particularly people on the right - believe that flying the flag that shows who you are is intrinsically a good thing - and I suspect that's a more likely candidate for the motivation behind putting the flag on Government buildings. The Government also explicitly said a couple of months ago that they wanted the Union Jack flown on projects that the Government has invested in simply in order that people know where the funding has come from: I don't see any reason not to take that statement at face value.
The fact you take that view probably puts you in the "base" the Tories are trying to woo. If you were to look at it from a different point of view you might see a party hijacking our national symbols for a political purpose. If, like Johnson, you choose to rule by dividing the public, then annoying the part of the population that you've decided won't ever vote for you makes perfect sense because it also makes the other part of the population support you more. See also various right-wingers in the States boasting about "owning the libs".
 

tbtc

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I wonder if the problem that will eventually be their undoing is alienating a large proportion of younger voters who may not grow up and switch allegiance to the Tories as previous generations have done so? I seem to recall that polling after the last two General Elections indicated that a plurality of under-50s voted for parties other than the Tories whilst over-50s voted for the Tories (with the divide becoming more extreme the older or younger you looked i.e. in the over 70s it might be 75% Tory and in the 18-24s it might be 75% Labour). I wonder if that tipping point age has increased in recent years? Which might be a problem if more and more of todays 20 and 30 somethings don't switch allegiance

It's a question that I've wondered a lot about - as I'm at the stage in my life where you'd expect me to have started voting Tory by now - which I've never done - so I've pondered the reasons why people in my circumstances have generally switched from red to blue by now and why I've not (e.g. is it more about me and my circumstances or is it more about this generation of Tories - maybe I'd have been okay voting for a Tory leader who appeared fairly "stable" like Heath/ Major but I certainly couldn't vote for Johnson)

On the one hand, it looks easier for people under forty to vote Tory these days - the "Millennial" generation are much more financially switched on - they graduate in large numbers, with large numbers of debt too, so they need to get a good job, can't afford to doss around like Generation X, certainly don't have the safety nets that Baby Boomers had

I reckon that the under forties are much savvier financially than previous generations - they are more receptive to messages about £££ - they've also grown up at a time where popular culture is a celebration of wealth (rather than it being a dirty word).

Also, I think that the lack of safety net for them (compared to previous generations) will make the Millennials a more "selfish" generation (not their fault - what I mean is that, since nobody was paying their University costs for them, they won't feel they need to pay for future generations of teenagers - so more likely to vote Tory?

But, at the same time, there are two things that I think will mean people less likely to switch.

Firstly, my personal feeling is that social media will "trap" people into who they were as teenagers (more than happened with other generations). Back when I were a lad (!), you drifted into and out of trends, you fell in love with bands/ films/ ideas/ foods and then forgot about them. But let's say someone was born on 1 January 2000 - they got onto social media at fifteen (in 2015), so found themselves in the heady days of Corbynmania - you join lots of Corbyn-related groups on Facebook, your Twitter feed is full of Corbyn obsessives posting their righteous thoughts about Magic Granddad - it's great. You choose the media bias that you want to get, you only want news from the sources that confirm your bias, fair enough. By the time you are twenty one (in, erm, 2021), you'd normally have been expected to have moved on from the "Corbyn" phase of your life. But you're trapped down this rabbit hole with other "true believers". You don't dare post something about how reasonable the new LibDem leader sounded in his latest speech because your friend group won't tolerate that dissent. So I think that the constant reinforcement of the things that you signed up to will make it harder to shift position. And this is an era where your friends can see what media you've consumer - your Spotify playlist or the public pages you've commented on in Facebook or your Twitter "likes". You don't want to alienate people by being seen to change your mind, you also find it harder to form your own opinions since your media feeds are still telling you what you believed in when you signed up to them

The other thing relates to people buying newspapers. People used to get pretty much all of their information/news from one daily newspaper. If you were chummy with the people who owned a few newspapers then you could ensure good coverage. A convincing paper could persuade people to vote against their own interests. The under fifties don't buy so many newspapers these days, so it's a lot harder to get your message across as easily. Whilst some newspaper websites are very popular, they are no longer the only source of news for people (and people are much more likely to only look at the Showbiz/ Football bits of the website, rather than the days when you'd at least skim through each page of your newspaper). So it'll be tough to get a big/ simple/ blunt message across. Maybe the alternative is the shady kind of Facebook adverts that Cambridge Analytica/ Cummings/ Vote Leave etc were involved with - targeted adverts that only certain people saw - so you could send completely contradictory information out there to different people (e.g. adverts to "white" people promised that Brexit would stop immigration, adverts to "Indian" people promised that Brexit would allow the UK to increase the amount of immigration from the Subcontinent since we were no longer taking free movement of people from the EU - but only the targeted audience saw each message at the time). The Tories seem to be focussing more and more on the people who (still) buy newspapers - an increasingly old readership - which is leaving them more adrift from the thirty/forty-somethings who'd otherwise be considering voting Tory - most of the Tory appeal seems to be aiming for going for people who are 65 rather than 45 (and certainly not for people at 25) IMHO

After all what's the pitch to win them over? From the above quote it looks like we're getting dinged again to pick up the tab for older people (you stop paying NI once you reach State Pension age even if you continue to work). Benefits for working age people have been slashed to to bone whilst benefits for pensioners have been fairly well protected. We locked down because older people were dying in their thousands and young people, particularly school children, have born the brunt of that. Many young people feel locked out of the housing market unless they can rely on mum & dad to help them get their first foot on the ladder.*

This predicted NI increase would be incredibly regressive (NI paid by poor paid workers who earn too little to pay Income Tax, NI only 2% on earnings over forty something thousand, NI not paid by people over State Pension Age) - we'd be expecting today's poorly paid young people to pay disproportionately more so that the Baby Boomers can retain their expensive houses when they go into Care Homes - you'd have to try hard to think of a policy more likely to give the impression that the Tories are the party of wealthy older people and expect younger poorer people to pay more

I'm not sure I agree anymore. The Tory party seem to be doing everything they can to royally pee off the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish. They really don't seem to be an actual unionist party in the true sense of the word (wanting to preserve the union).

I don't know much about Wales but (as a Scot) the Tories seem to be doing rather well north of the border, by positioning themselves as the "anti-SNP" - it's not pretty but it's effective, it's squeezed a lot of the Unionist vote from other parties (twenty years ago the Tories were virtually extinct in Scotland, now they're beating Labour - unthinkable to my generation)

They're not popular with the majority of Scots, sure, but politics is often about getting 30% of people to love you rather than 51% of people to like you - the SNP love the Tories in the way that the DUP love Sein Fein - it helps shore up your core supporters to show your opponents as the diametric opposite

Does putting a giant flag there remind people what Westminster does? I doubt it!

Another example - for some offices in Wales and Scotland they spent tens of thousands of pounds adding "UK government" branding but they decided not to bother in England. Sure not much in terms of government budgets - but I can't help but question why they did it in Wales and Scotland but not England, and regardless of politics - wouldn't it have been nice to have seen that money maybe be spent on the local communities to those offices instead!

Actually it doesn't - a giant union flag says nothing about what the building is used for. The news did that. But a much simpler, cheaper and less antagonistic sign on the building saying HMRC would tell people what the building is used for.

It's amusing to see Welsh nationalists arguing about the "waste of public money" to put up something that's "irrelevant" to the vast majority of people in Cardiff - pure "gesture politics" etc

Whereas ensuring that everything is bi-lingual (in a city where very few people speak Welsh as a first language) is presumably none of the above things...
 

Arglwydd Golau

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It's amusing to see Welsh nationalists arguing about the "waste of public money" to put up something that's "irrelevant" to the vast majority of people in Cardiff - pure "gesture politics" etc

Whereas ensuring that everything is bi-lingual (in a city where very few people speak Welsh as a first language) is presumably none of the above things...
Ha! Aren't we due another thread having a pop at the Welsh Language?
 

brad465

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I was reading Politico's London Playbook today and there was an interesting tidbit in it which perhaps might suggest when it will all go wrong for Johnson and the Tories (well, in the medium/long term anyway):




I wonder if the problem that will eventually be their undoing is alienating a large proportion of younger voters who may not grow up and switch allegiance to the Tories as previous generations have done so? I seem to recall that polling after the last two General Elections indicated that a plurality of under-50s voted for parties other than the Tories whilst over-50s voted for the Tories (with the divide becoming more extreme the older or younger you looked i.e. in the over 70s it might be 75% Tory and in the 18-24s it might be 75% Labour). I wonder if that tipping point age has increased in recent years? Which might be a problem if more and more of todays 20 and 30 somethings don't switch allegiance.

After all what's the pitch to win them over? From the above quote it looks like we're getting dinged again to pick up the tab for older people (you stop paying NI once you reach State Pension age even if you continue to work). Benefits for working age people have been slashed to to bone whilst benefits for pensioners have been fairly well protected. We locked down because older people were dying in their thousands and young people, particularly school children, have born the brunt of that. Many young people feel locked out of the housing market unless they can rely on mum & dad to help them get their first foot on the ladder.*

So where's the pitch to make a young person today want to vote Tory when they reach 40 or 50 or 60? Is this perhaps the problem they're storing up for themselves that will be their eventual undoing?

*Yes there's a fair few generalisations in there.
I do wonder also if the parents of children who spend much longer living in their homes also get edgy about the Tories in this situation if they want their children to move out but know they can't afford to.
It will be hubris like we saw this weekend that will do for Johnson. He will also suffer if "FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Day" doesn't work and we slide back into lockdown.
I've heard reports that the only reason Johnson went ahead with "Freedom Day" is because his job was at serious risk if he didn't. The expectation is that if he ever had to rely heavily on opposition votes to get a vote through Parliament (say a Tory rebellion of 50%+ of the party), he'd be gone in a blink.
I think you are right. I've noticed more and more young Conservative activists - certainly more young councillors than Labour. This is Labour taking the votes of some for granted, while the Conservatives offer them a (possible) route to a brighter future. Labour needs to start talking to young people (your average young people, not the shouty ones) and start engaging them otherwise the Conservatives won't need to worry about converting former Labour voters, there won't be many.

(NI - I have seen suggestions that axing the upper age for contributing is being considered to help pay towards social care. Whether it was just for those in work or all wasn't clear. Sorry, can't remember where I saw it.)
I'm almost certain I saw Kier Starmer talking to youngsters in Blackpool last week, and is looking to try and guarantee jobs for those aged 18-24 as party policy. If he keeps this up I think he meets the said criteria.
 

DarloRich

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I've heard reports that the only reason Johnson went ahead with "Freedom Day" is because his job was at serious risk if he didn't. The expectation is that if he ever had to rely heavily on opposition votes to get a vote through Parliament (say a Tory rebellion of 50%+ of the party), he'd be gone in a blink.

That must be true, surely, for any PM. If you cant get your own party to deliver your policy agenda you are finished. It is, in essence, a vote of no confidence.
 

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That must be true, surely, for any PM. If you cant get your own party to deliver your policy agenda you are finished. It is, in essence, a vote of no confidence.
Yes and if this is true it sounds like the libertarian views in the Tory party have expanded beyond the core CRG significantly. We won't know for sure though unless restrictions get reimposed.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I'm almost certain I saw Kier Starmer talking to youngsters in Blackpool last week, and is looking to try and guarantee jobs for those aged 18-24 as party policy. If he keeps this up I think he meets the said criteria.

In principle, guaranteeing jobs for anyone who wants one sounds idyllic - and if you could do it, then yes, it would be great. The trouble is (a) if you guarantee jobs only for 18-24 year-olds, you're going to have a lot of angry unemployed 25+ year-olds feeling discriminated against, (b) what happens to someone with a guaranteed job who reaches their 25th birthday?, and (c) how on Earth can you actually do it? In principle, I love the idea of promising that anyone who wants to work can do so, but off the top of my head I can't see any way of implementing it that wouldn't have bad consequences elsewhere in the economy.

For those reasons, I'm not sure that this kind of policy is going to help Labour much.
 

Typhoon

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I'm almost certain I saw Kier Starmer talking to youngsters in Blackpool last week, and is looking to try and guarantee jobs for those aged 18-24 as party policy. If he keeps this up I think he meets the said criteria.
In principle, guaranteeing jobs for anyone who wants one sounds idyllic - and if you could do it, then yes, it would be great. The trouble is (a) if you guarantee jobs only for 18-24 year-olds, you're going to have a lot of angry unemployed 25+ year-olds feeling discriminated against, (b) what happens to someone with a guaranteed job who reaches their 25th birthday?, and (c) how on Earth can you actually do it? In principle, I love the idea of promising that anyone who wants to work can do so, but off the top of my head I can't see any way of implementing it that wouldn't have bad consequences elsewhere in the economy.
As ever, it is all in the detail. @brad465 was pointing out that Starmer was discussing employment with young people in Blackpool, probably talking to them about their concerns about getting a job. I would be surprised if it is currently any more than ideas for shadow ministers to work on. Starmer probably isn't a bad person to do that, I suspect that if you asked his audience they would say that he sounded sincere and interested and listened to them. One reason why I think Starmer is worth persevering with. I had missed that and pleased that it has happened (and it was pointed out) but it needs to go wider; at the moment it is just Starmer. Others need to be seen. None of them even make the local media where they are struggling for news - a bridge for swans and a linesman unable to make a non-league under-23 game make it - which tends to indicate they are not out and about. It can't be down to just him.

On the other hand the Conservatives have left it down to one person; I was surprised that they didn't fight the last election as Boris Johnson's Conservative Party. That's fine provided all is going well but it currently isn't (posts up thread), yet again he has over promised and under delivered but this time on something extremely important to many of their MPs - 'Freedom Day'. Firstly backtracking from June 21st to July 19th, now on vaccine passports. As others have stated there will be a core group of CRG members, but boosted by others who have tried to quell murmurings in their constituency by pushing 'Freedom Day' only to find it isn't freedom at all (so look rather stupid). Also there will be Boris Toleraters, who have grudgingly supported him during the good times but may have been supporters of May, who resent the way she was treated, or were demoted/ removed from office by our current PM, or just think he is hopeless (but got the votes in). Now that we are being told it is all (sort of) drawing to a close, people may start to be less forgiving of incompetence.
 

Dai Corner

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On the other hand the Conservatives have left it down to one person; I was surprised that they didn't fight the last election as Boris Johnson's Conservative Party. That's fine provided all is going well but it currently isn't (posts up thread), yet again he has over promised and under delivered but this time on something extremely important to many of their MPs - 'Freedom Day'. Firstly backtracking from June 21st to July 19th, now on vaccine passports. As others have stated there will be a core group of CRG members, but boosted by others who have tried to quell murmurings in their constituency by pushing 'Freedom Day' only to find it isn't freedom at all (so look rather stupid). Also there will be Boris Toleraters, who have grudgingly supported him during the good times but may have been supporters of May, who resent the way she was treated, or were demoted/ removed from office by our current PM, or just think he is hopeless (but got the votes in). Now that we are being told it is all (sort of) drawing to a close, people may start to be less forgiving of incompetence.
One of the Conservatives' strengths is that they are good at getting rid of leaders once they become a liability. There are potential Prime Ministers in the Cabinet ready to take over once the time is right. I could see Javid or Sunak becoming the first non-white occupying No. 10 and winning a General Election.
 

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One of the Conservatives' strengths is that they are good at getting rid of leaders once they become a liability. There are potential Prime Ministers in the Cabinet ready to take over once the time is right. I could see Javid or Sunak becoming the first non-white occupying No. 10 and winning a General Election.
You are right. A big advantage of it being 'leader-centric' is that when you ditch the leader, you claim to wipe the slate clean - just like Johnson did when May got the push. I would think Javid had a high card to play 'I wasn't there when it was chaos' - PPE, Test and Trace, and the like!

Anything interesting in the Cummings interview?
 

alex397

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That's possible I guess. Were there (before Brexit) areas of the UK that had received EU funding and where the EU flag was plastered all over the places that had been improved? If so, where?
I’ve seen this on various signs in Kent, Merseyside, Cornwall, Glasgow for example.

There are also small EU flags on seemingly every social distancing sign and the signs encouraging us that town centres are safe, placed in town centres around the UK . Which is interesting as this is all post-Brexit
 

Dai Corner

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You are right. A big advantage of it being 'leader-centric' is that when you ditch the leader, you claim to wipe the slate clean - just like Johnson did when May got the push. I would think Javid had a high card to play 'I wasn't there when it was chaos' - PPE, Test and Trace, and the like!

Anything interesting in the Cummings interview?
Good point about Javid. The fact that he resigned as Chancellor on a point of principle after clashing with Cummings also goes in his favour.

There's a separate Cummings thread so probably best to comment on his recent remarks and the interview there.
 

RuralRambler

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2 years ago I was travelling a bit in SE Italy and noticed a couple of places where the EU was giving funding to regenerate the area, and EU flags were very prominently plastered about those the places, accompanied by explanations of the EU funding. Even one of the trains I went on had inside the carriage a notice about how the EU had helped fund that route - accompanied by an EU flag. I did wonder why the EU so strongly advertises itself in Italy but had never really done so in UK.
It depends on what the money is being spent on. I've seen a few "investments" emblazened with EU logos/signage etc in the UK which were pretty irrelevant, such as a piece of artwork on a roundabout. That just perpetuates peoples' anti-EU views. From what I've seen in the EU, the funding seems to be spent on things which have a greater impact on the community, such as new roads, new marinas, etc.
 

Typhoon

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Good point about Javid. The fact that he resigned as Chancellor on a point of principle after clashing with Cummings also goes in his favour.

There's a separate Cummings thread so probably best to comment on his recent remarks and the interview there.
The case for Javid is improving.
NHS staff get pay rise of 3% after their contribution during 'unprecedented year' (msn.com)

Those receiving the increase include nurses, paramedics, consultants, dentists and salaried GPs.

In a statement, Health Secretary Sajid Javid said: "NHS staff are rightly receiving a pay rise this year despite the wider public sector pay pause, in recognition of their extraordinary efforts. We asked the independent pay review bodies for their recommendations and I'm pleased to accept them in full, with a 3% pay rise for all staff in scope, from doctors and nurses to paramedics and porters.

Doesn't help Johnson though, he will look weak. The case hasn't improved since he set out 1%, he didn't overrule Sunak or Hancock.

The interesting part as far as I can see is salaried GPs, who are surely paid by the practice that employs them, this is being backpaid almost 4 months. Now I don't know how this works but the practice I am a patient of is about 50-50 salaried/ partners. If practices do not have their remuneration increased, they will not be happy but more importantly might encourage partners to take early retirement or otherwise leave. Where we live, in the last five years, two practices have merged with larger ones when most of their partners retired and another practice closed a surgery because they had insufficient GPs to staff it on a regular basis. I think this is far from unique.
Maybe Boris has found the 350 million while he has been isolating at Chequers?
 

baz962

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The case for Javid is improving.
NHS staff get pay rise of 3% after their contribution during 'unprecedented year' (msn.com)



Doesn't help Johnson though, he will look weak. The case hasn't improved since he set out 1%, he didn't overrule Sunak or Hancock.

The interesting part as far as I can see is salaried GPs, who are surely paid by the practice that employs them, this is being backpaid almost 4 months. Now I don't know how this works but the practice I am a patient of is about 50-50 salaried/ partners. If practices do not have their remuneration increased, they will not be happy but more importantly might encourage partners to take early retirement or otherwise leave. Where we live, in the last five years, two practices have merged with larger ones when most of their partners retired and another practice closed a surgery because they had insufficient GPs to staff it on a regular basis. I think this is far from unique.
Maybe Boris has found the 350 million while he has been isolating at Chequers?
My GP used to publish the average pay at the surgery for the doctors. It was six figures.
 

Dai Corner

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The case for Javid is improving.
NHS staff get pay rise of 3% after their contribution during 'unprecedented year' (msn.com)



Doesn't help Johnson though, he will look weak. The case hasn't improved since he set out 1%, he didn't overrule Sunak or Hancock.

The interesting part as far as I can see is salaried GPs, who are surely paid by the practice that employs them, this is being backpaid almost 4 months. Now I don't know how this works but the practice I am a patient of is about 50-50 salaried/ partners. If practices do not have their remuneration increased, they will not be happy but more importantly might encourage partners to take early retirement or otherwise leave. Where we live, in the last five years, two practices have merged with larger ones when most of their partners retired and another practice closed a surgery because they had insufficient GPs to staff it on a regular basis. I think this is far from unique.
Maybe Boris has found the 350 million while he has been isolating at Chequers?
Basically, GP Practices get paid £x per patient on their books and out of that pay their running costs; including salaries of any salaried GPs. The partners take any profit (or loss, I suppose).

To all intents and purposes they are private contractors selling their services to the NHS, as are dentists, pharmacies and opticians.
 

brad465

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One of the Conservatives' strengths is that they are good at getting rid of leaders once they become a liability. There are potential Prime Ministers in the Cabinet ready to take over once the time is right. I could see Javid or Sunak becoming the first non-white occupying No. 10 and winning a General Election.
You are right. A big advantage of it being 'leader-centric' is that when you ditch the leader, you claim to wipe the slate clean - just like Johnson did when May got the push. I would think Javid had a high card to play 'I wasn't there when it was chaos' - PPE, Test and Trace, and the like!

Anything interesting in the Cummings interview?
While much of this is true, for the sake of the country the simple fact of changing leader so often creates uncertainty and instability. Cameron had a respectable tenure of 6 years, but if Johnson goes in the next year then we'll have had 4 PMs in the space of 12 years, compared to 2 PMs in 13 Labour years and 2 PMs in 18 Tory years from 1979-97.

The relatively rapid change can be put down to incompetency and the tribal politics we now have, where people often blindingly follow whatever someone does because they like them (Johnson in particular has this likeability trait); perhaps if voters/party members scrutinised those they support better incompetent ones would have no chance and those who do lead take the job more seriously.
 

Typhoon

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My GP used to publish the average pay at the surgery for the doctors. It was six figures.
Oh, no-one went into General Practice to get poor, I've seen the cars in the car park. That is not the issue. In a way it is part of the problem. GPs feel overworked and, at least in my area, are going part time or taking early retirement because they can afford to. I know they have been staffing the vaccination clinics at the weekend. Now I worked far too many weekends but I wasn't in a position not to - they are.

Basically, GP Practices get paid £x per patient on their books and out of that pay their running costs; including salaries of any salaried GPs. The partners take any profit (or loss, I suppose).

To all intents and purposes they are private contractors selling their services to the NHS, as are dentists, pharmacies and opticians.
Thanks for that, I guessed it must be something similar (and I know there are some extras where they can get a bit more cash). And this really enforces my point - almost four months in to the financial year, the government has increased a major part of a practice's outgoings. Unlike many businesses they cannot increase what they charge - any increase would have to be given by HMG.

My concern is that some GP practices in some parts of the country are already owned, not by GP Partners, but by Health Cos, including large US health insurance companies. They can afford to take a one off hit. If GPs are no longer willing to become partners, and they increasingly aren't, then there is every likelihood that practices will be taken over by corporates who will run them for profit but with rather less regard for its patients (by, say, centralising delivery from one hub, excluding patients with expensive medical conditions for the slightest of reasons, reducing home visits, no continuity of GP as they are moved from one of the companies practices to another according to demand). This government will have no objection to such a turn of events and I appreciate that General Practice is, and has always been, a private provider of NHS services but I do have confidence that locally practices do work with the best interests of patients at heart. I would not be so certain if the company was based in Boston, Mass, not Boston, Lincs.
 

baz962

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Oh, no-one went into General Practice to get poor, I've seen the cars in the car park. That is not the issue. In a way it is part of the problem. GPs feel overworked and, at least in my area, are going part time or taking early retirement because they can afford to. I know they have been staffing the vaccination clinics at the weekend. Now I worked far too many weekends but I wasn't in a position not to - they are.


Thanks for that, I guessed it must be something similar (and I know there are some extras where they can get a bit more cash). And this really enforces my point - almost four months in to the financial year, the government has increased a major part of a practice's outgoings. Unlike many businesses they cannot increase what they charge - any increase would have to be given by HMG.

My concern is that some GP practices in some parts of the country are already owned, not by GP Partners, but by Health Cos, including large US health insurance companies. They can afford to take a one off hit. If GPs are no longer willing to become partners, and they increasingly aren't, then there is every likelihood that practices will be taken over by corporates who will run them for profit but with rather less regard for its patients (by, say, centralising delivery from one hub, excluding patients with expensive medical conditions for the slightest of reasons, reducing home visits, no continuity of GP as they are moved from one of the companies practices to another according to demand). This government will have no objection to such a turn of events and I appreciate that General Practice is, and has always been, a private provider of NHS services but I do have confidence that locally practices do work with the best interests of patients at heart. I would not be so certain if the company was based in Boston, Mass, not Boston, Lincs.
My point was more that lower paid staff nurses etc , more than deserve 3% . Lot's of people saying and rightly so , that train driver's and other highly paid staff should not get a payrise this year and I am happy to not get one this year. I would extend that to GP's too.
 

Typhoon

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My point was more that lower paid staff nurses etc , more than deserve 3% . Lot's of people saying and rightly so , that train driver's and other highly paid staff should not get a payrise this year and I am happy to not get one this year. I would extend that to GP's too.
I don't think we are in a disagreement about the point you have made. There is a shortage of nurses so what tends to happen is that we search far and wide and filch them from countries at the other side of the earth because they are prepared to work for lower salaries ('we' being hospital trusts). Those that are employed from this country are told it is a 'vocation' (with the implication that we won't pay you much). If we were prepared to pay more more UK residents would be enticed into the profession ('we' being HMG).

If, back in March, instead of Johnson blathering, he had said something along the lines that although public sector workers on the whole would be subjected to a pay freeze all NHS workers would get 1% but to mark the dedication of certain classes of lower paid NHS workers such as nurses we will be awarding them 4% say (they might want to add other classes at 2% say). Instead we have this panic measure which Javid has got through but I suspect the consequences that I have outlined have not been thought through.
 

Dai Corner

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I don't think we are in a disagreement about the point you have made. There is a shortage of nurses so what tends to happen is that we search far and wide and filch them from countries at the other side of the earth because they are prepared to work for lower salaries ('we' being hospital trusts). Those that are employed from this country are told it is a 'vocation' (with the implication that we won't pay you much). If we were prepared to pay more more UK residents would be enticed into the profession ('we' being HMG).

If, back in March, instead of Johnson blathering, he had said something along the lines that although public sector workers on the whole would be subjected to a pay freeze all NHS workers would get 1% but to mark the dedication of certain classes of lower paid NHS workers such as nurses we will be awarding them 4% say (they might want to add other classes at 2% say). Instead we have this panic measure which Javid has got through but I suspect the consequences that I have outlined have not been thought through.
I'm not sure the £25k starting or £33k average nurses' salaries would be regarded as 'low' by everyone.

The Cameron Government was criticised for its approach to public sector pay with no or minimal rises for middle and high earners. Low earners benefited from rises in the minimum wage, of course.

Javid's generosity may mark a move towards a more pragmatic approach. "If the public want it, why not borrow a few more £bn and give it to NHS staff?"
 

edwin_m

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I'm not sure the £25k starting or £33k average nurses' salaries would be regarded as 'low' by everyone.

The Cameron Government was criticised for its approach to public sector pay with no or minimal rises for middle and high earners. Low earners benefited from rises in the minimum wage, of course.

Javid's generosity may mark a move towards a more pragmatic approach. "If the public want it, why not borrow a few more £bn and give it to NHS staff?"
Increasing the pay of low-paid workers is a good way of putting money back into the economy, especially at a time when they may find it hard to book foreign holidays.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Javid's generosity may mark a move towards a more pragmatic approach. "If the public want it, why not borrow a few more £bn and give it to NHS staff?"

I suspect that's probably it: A response to public opinion. If you really wanted to reward nurses etc. who worked in the pandemic, then the logical way to do it would be a bonus for people who worked during the last year, rather than a pay rise: A pay rise rewards nurses who will be working in future years - that's not necessarily the same people as nurses who were working during the pandemic (though there's obviously a fair bit of overlap between the two groups).
 

edwin_m

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I suspect that's probably it: A response to public opinion. If you really wanted to reward nurses etc. who worked in the pandemic, then the logical way to do it would be a bonus for people who worked during the last year, rather than a pay rise: A pay rise rewards nurses who will be working in future years - that's not necessarily the same people as nurses who were working during the pandemic (though there's obviously a fair bit of overlap between the two groups).
However, a pay rise may encourage nurses and other NHS staff to keep working. They are needed to clear the backlog of non-Covid cases that have built up over the past 18 months, and to encourage more people to enter the profession now Brexit and Covid make overseas recruitment more difficult.
 
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