When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[ainsworth74]

If flow between Nunthorpe and Boro' was that good surely the service would be more than 1tph?

The infrastructure between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough isn't up to the task. It's single track all the way from Guisborough Junction (just outside Middlesbrough) to Nunthorpe. A fine piece of BR 1980s cost saving. So the maximum service that can be sustained is around one an hour each way. It's why, for example, the new early arrival into Middlesbrough from December is so early. It's the only way of pathing it!

Now if someone wanted to talk about spending money to either redouble the line between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough or at least install a passing point somewhere down the line to enable an increase in frequency I think that might have legs. The local roads that parallel the railway route are notoriously congested (it even has it's own name, the Marton Crawl!) so an improved rail service between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough could well be a winner (indeed I think we have at least one member who uses that route regularly has commented that even the current hourly service is quite popular).

I've seen passengers at stations between Nunthorpe and Middlesborough left behind because they couldn't get on the train towards Whitby. The capacity is needed all along the route.

I think you've misinterpreted me here a bit. That was my point. The majority of traffic boards at Middlesbrough and at the stations between there and Nunthorpe on the way to Whitby. Beyond Nunthorpe however there are far fewer, if any, passengers joining the service (outside of the school train obviously) as it heads to Whitby. The same then in reverse. Overwhelming majority get on at Whitby, a handful trickle off before Nunthorpe and then everyone gets off between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough.

 

[Harpers Tate]

So how do you propose speeding up the route?.... It's simply not practical to speed it up much.

Let me see.....
Presently 1h 30 or thereabouts Middlesbrough <> Whitby.

(1): There are 14 intermediate stops excluding Battersby and Glaisdale. At each of these stops (and, yes I know these comments will annoy some members) around one minute is "wasted" with the process involved in releasing and closing doors - especially as it is a five-stage process from stop to start. I timed the station dwell time (a) on the rail network in Mallorca and (b) on the SuperTram/Train at Rotherham (or anywhere else for that matter) to make this comparison. Add request stops into the mix and you have yet more potential savings.

(2): At Battersby - assuming the reversal remains (no new alignment to avoid) there is still the potential for a 1-2 minute saving if the crew-operated token system were replaced by a proper, modern, single-line signalling system.

(3): At Glaisdale there is the potential for a 2-3 minute saving if the crew-operated token system were replaced by a proper, modern, single-line signalling system such that the train could stop and start in a similar timeframe to any other station.

(4): Frequent stops and curves and gradients and crossings and so on suggest that rolling stock with much better acceleration, braking, yet a low top speed (D-Train, reliability issues aside, as an example) would shave another few minutes.

Without the need for extensive civil engineering to ease curves and/or otherwise ramp up line speeds, add these things together and the trip time could come down by ~20 minutes or a bit more - down to 1h 5 or 1h 10 - which is a significant improvement.

 

[deltic08]

The infrastructure between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough isn't up to the task. It's single track all the way from Guisborough Junction (just outside Middlesbrough) to Nunthorpe. A fine piece of BR 1980s cost saving. So the maximum service that can be sustained is around one an hour each way. It's why, for example, the new early arrival into Middlesbrough from December is so early. It's the only way of pathing it!

Now if someone wanted to talk about spending money to either redouble the line between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough or at least install a passing point somewhere down the line to enable an increase in frequency I think that might have legs. The local roads that parallel the railway route are notoriously congested (it even has it's own name, the Marton Crawl!) so an improved rail service between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough could well be a winner (indeed I think we have at least one member who uses that route regularly has commented that even the current hourly service is quite popular).

Yes I know all too well but apart from the cost of a second track and signalling, a second platform would be required with DDA access which would mean a footbridge minimum and possibly lifts. Double tracking is £4m/mile approx. Maybe a dynamic loop between two stations would be sufficient for now as between Cattal and Hammerton on the Harrogate Loop? At least the land needed is still NRs.
This is where the Tees Valley Mayor could earn his keep? After all, he persuaded someone (local Councils I think) to spend £40m buying Teesside airport.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes I know all too well but apart from the cost of a second track and signalling, a second platform would be required with DDA access which would mean a footbridge minimum and possibly lifts. Double tracking is £4m/mile approx. Maybe a dynamic loop between two stations would be sufficient for now as between Cattal and Hammerton on the Harrogate Loop? At least the land needed is still NRs.

Yes good point regarding the stations so a dynamic loop would probably be easier and cheaper than upgrading a station to modern standards and building extra infrastructure/signalling!

Only issue with land, I think, is that James Cook Station platform was built on the old trackbed. But hardly insurmountable.

This is where the Tees Valley Mayor could earn his keep?

He seems far more interested in his second Tees Crossing and...

After all, he persuaded someone (local Councils I think) to spend £40m buying Teesside airport.

Don't remind me! The local authorities are all on the hook for this vanity project that will do very little for transport in the region. Heaven help us...

 

[markindurham]

Let me see.....
Presently 1h 30 or thereabouts Middlesbrough <> Whitby.

(1): There are 14 intermediate stops excluding Battersby and Glaisdale. At each of these stops (and, yes I know these comments will annoy some members) around one minute is "wasted" with the process involved in releasing and closing doors - especially as it is a five-stage process from stop to start. I timed the station dwell time (a) on the rail network in Mallorca and (b) on the SuperTram/Train at Rotherham (or anywhere else for that matter) to make this comparison. Add request stops into the mix and you have yet more potential savings.

(2): At Battersby - assuming the reversal remains (no new alignment to avoid) there is still the potential for a 1-2 minute saving if the crew-operated token system were replaced by a proper, modern, single-line signalling system.

(3): At Glaisdale there is the potential for a 2-3 minute saving if the crew-operated token system were replaced by a proper, modern, single-line signalling system such that the train could stop and start in a similar timeframe to any other station.

(4): Frequent stops and curves and gradients and crossings and so on suggest that rolling stock with much better acceleration, braking, yet a low top speed (D-Train, reliability issues aside, as an example) would shave another few minutes.

Without the need for extensive civil engineering to ease curves and/or otherwise ramp up line speeds, add these things together and the trip time could come down by ~20 minutes or a bit more - down to 1h 5 or 1h 10 - which is a significant improvement.

The thing is, though, that unless you have stock dedicated to the branch - and a derogation to permit operation into/out of Middlesbrough, then as the stock used can be operated anywhere else on the network then we are stuck with the release/closing systems that we have. Group Standards and all that...

Upgrading of signalling etc will happen once ERTMS is rolled out across the network - I cannot see too many alterations anywhere until then. BCR would surely raise its head...

The whole point of the service is to call at stations - and certainly request stops might well be a way forward, but as in my experience of using the line there has always been at least one person joining/alighting at each stop, perhaps the time savings might not amount to much. As for using D-trains, sadly the mischief-making by some (including some allegedly pro-rail people) has perhaps created a mindset in Joe Public that they are old, well worn and not fit for purpose. All except the old part is, of course, hokum, and a counter-claim about age would surely be that their re-use is a great example of 'going green', but the damage to their reputations may well be irreversible.

As for stock with better acceleration/braking, well, new ones are out of the question unless the branch were to be wired, given the policy of 'going green' and phasing out diesel stock sooner rather than later - no leasing company is going to take the risk of ordering assets that will never be allowed to pay for themselves over the usual 30+ year service. Existing TOCs are reluctant to release any of their existing units even when new vehicles (usually electric as wiring continues to be done elsewhere) are becoming available, because traffic levels are still growing and they too need stock to cope with demand.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Oh, I didn't say that it wouldn't be dependent on the will to do it - just that it could be substantially improved without huge amounts of track/alignment upgrade.

 

[R G NOW.]

The infrastructure between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough isn't up to the task. It's single track all the way from Guisborough Junction (just outside Middlesbrough) to Nunthorpe. A fine piece of BR 1980s cost saving. So the maximum service that can be sustained is around one an hour each way. It's why, for example, the new early arrival into Middlesbrough from December is so early. It's the only way of pathing it!

Now if someone wanted to talk about spending money to either redouble the line between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough or at least install a passing point somewhere down the line to enable an increase in frequency I think that might have legs. The local roads that parallel the railway route are notoriously congested (it even has it's own name, the Marton Crawl!) so an improved rail service between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough could well be a winner (indeed I think we have at least one member who uses that route regularly has commented that even the current hourly service is quite popular).



I think you've misinterpreted me here a bit. That was my point. The majority of traffic boards at Middlesbrough and at the stations between there and Nunthorpe on the way to Whitby. Beyond Nunthorpe however there are far fewer, if any, passengers joining the service (outside of the school train obviously) as it heads to Whitby. The same then in reverse. Overwhelming majority get on at Whitby, a handful trickle off before Nunthorpe and then everyone gets off between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough.

Yes, The DFT or somebody needs to reach in to their pockets and pull out enought money to redouble parts of it, as they did with the Cotswold line, seem to have the idea, that was came out reasonably priced in the end.

 

[yorksrob]

I think you've misinterpreted me here a bit. That was my point. The majority of traffic boards at Middlesbrough and at the stations between there and Nunthorpe on the way to Whitby. Beyond Nunthorpe however there are far fewer, if any, passengers joining the service (outside of the school train obviously) as it heads to Whitby. The same then in reverse. Overwhelming majority get on at Whitby, a handful trickle off before Nunthorpe and then everyone gets off between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough.

Fair point. It does reiterate that the additional capacity is required all along the route.

 

[Marton]

The infrastructure between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough isn't up to the task. It's single track all the way from Guisborough Junction (just outside Middlesbrough) to Nunthorpe. A fine piece of BR 1980s cost saving. So the maximum service that can be sustained is around one an hour each way. It's why, for example, the new early arrival into Middlesbrough from December is so early. It's the only way of pathing it!

Now if someone wanted to talk about spending money to either redouble the line between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough or at least install a passing point somewhere down the line to enable an increase in frequency I think that might have legs. The local roads that parallel the railway route are notoriously congested (it even has it's own name, the Marton Crawl!) so an improved rail service between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough could well be a winner (indeed I think we have at least one member who uses that route regularly has commented that even the current hourly service is quite popular).



I think you've misinterpreted me here a bit. That was my point. The majority of traffic boards at Middlesbrough and at the stations between there and Nunthorpe on the way to Whitby. Beyond Nunthorpe however there are far fewer, if any, passengers joining the service (outside of the school train obviously) as it heads to Whitby. The same then in reverse. Overwhelming majority get on at Whitby, a handful trickle off before Nunthorpe and then everyone gets off between Nunthorpe and Middlesbrough.

Absolutely right. The early 80s singling was short sighted.

Doubling has been made more difficult by building James Cook on the trackbed and the new bridge at Ladgate Lane. I am sure Marton platform is also much wider than Ormesby was when looking at the old bridge parapets.

 

[Marton]

Looking at the Whitby services recently they have been losing time between Nunthorpe and Whitby.

Is there a problem with the track?

 

[30907]

Looking at the Whitby services recently they have been losing time between Nunthorpe and Whitby.

Is there a problem with the track?

Leaves on it?

 

[Marton]

No. Been happening much longer than that

 

[Ayman Ilham]

So how do you propose speeding up the route? There was a fool who wanted to reinstate Malton to Whitby, basically demolishing the NYMR, who reckoned that tilting trains could be used...

It's a rural route serving several small stations, running through a twisty valley. It's simply not practical to speed it up much.

Trains with better acceleration? I guess we need more 195s

 

[R G NOW.]

Trains with better acceleration? I guess we need more 195s

Have they now got rid of the pacers yet?.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Have they now got rid of the pacers yet?.

They started phasing them out but it'll be a while till all of them are gone! Not all of the new 195s and 331s are ready for service yet!

 

[Kingspanner]

I know we've discussed the new timetable somewhere (else) but anyway, saw this poster at Middlesbrough Station yesterday.
Plenty to argue about again.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I know we've discussed the new timetable somewhere (else) but anyway, saw this poster at Middlesbrough Station yesterday.
Plenty to argue about again.View attachment 70871

It's a great leap forward, isn't it? Hardly anything to argue about - except, I suppose, some might say the limited stop trains miss out stations that might produce a passenger or two.
I certainly hope we get some feedback on loadings in here when the new timetable comes in, although I suspect it will only begin to 'tap the market' come the summer.

 

[R G NOW.]

I know we've discussed the new timetable somewhere (else) but anyway, saw this poster at Middlesbrough Station yesterday.
Plenty to argue about again.View attachment 70871

Lovely, at least it's a start.

 

[Marton]

Today saw the first early morning train for years.

I see at least it ran, but arrived in Middlesbrough 19 late necessitating cancelation of the 0757 to Nunthorpe and 0820 Nunthorpe to Hexham which was started from Middlesbrough. This is a busy train these days and cancellation isn’t popular. Let’s hope it’s a one off.

Worse for TPE though. First two Redcar Central departures cancelled. The next Scarborough?

 

[Killingworth]

Worse for TPE though. First two Redcar Central departures cancelled. The next Scarborough?

Off this topic but I saw the 6.35 leave MIA for Redcar on-time

 

[yorksrob]

The new timetable certainly represents progress.

Out of interest, now that the 19:44 from Whitby on a Saturday is no longer the last train of the evening, is it still dry ?

 

[bearhugger]

aken up
Out of interest, now that the 19:44 from Whitby on a Saturday is no longer the last train of the evening, is it still dry ?

Can't answer that, but was talking to a guard at Middlesbrough today and it will be interesting to see how much the new later service will be used by the people who spend all Saturday in the summer getting ratted in Whitby. Will it spread the load or will the majority just sprnd a couple of hours more in Whitby getting more ratted?

 

[yorksrob]

Can't answer that, but was talking to a guard at Middlesbrough today and it will be interesting to see how much the new later service will be used by the people who spend all Saturday in the summer getting ratted in Whitby. Will it spread the load or will the majority just sprnd a couple of hours more in Whitby getting more ratted?

I suspect the latter.

 

[Skipness]

I note that the school train on Thursday (23 Nov) was very late, leaving Middlesbrough at the time it was supposed to be at Battersby and crossing with the early ex Whitby departure.
Anybody know why?

 

[Marton]

I think I remember correctly the Northern journey check site having it down as train crew delayed.

 

[Skipness]

RTT reveals that the two passed at Nunthorpe instead, and that the 06.41 departure from Nunthorpe to Newcastle was cancelled “but to a problem at the depot” Northern seemed to have had some problems this date.
Outsiders may wonder about concerns of the late running of the school train, but those with long memories may recall that this was a major reason why the Esk valley line survived the Beeching cuts whilst the other routes to Whitby did not.
A 30 minute delay to this train will have resulted in (perhaps as many at 50?) children being late to school, some of whom have influential parents concerned about (vulnerable because of their age) children being forced to wait in draughty platform shelters.

 

[yorksrob]

On the subject of the Whitby line, I see that the return from York is now £19, compared to about £16.40 a couple of years ago.

Perhaps Northern's or TPE's pricing people can say who's been price gouging?

Dig the dirt !

 

[bearhugger]

On the subject of the Whitby line, I see that the return from York is now £19, compared to about £16.40 a couple of years ago.

Perhaps Northern's or TPE's pricing people can say who's been price gouging?

Dig the dirt !

I have a station adopters pass for TPE so haven't bought a Middlesbrough to York return for a few years now. I seem to think the last time I bought one was around the £12/13 mark and was really good value as the park & ride wasn't in existence or at least a very small operation and parking was about £8 near the station at York, Last year when I checked the price and it had jumped up so much I was gobsmacked. Based on my own observations at Middlesbrough, the TPE service does well, even on midweek services at 9/10/11 o'clock in the morning and Saturdays, especially race days, can be rammed so TPE must be on a nice earner.

 

[yorksrob]

I have a station adopters pass for TPE so haven't bought a Middlesbrough to York return for a few years now. I seem to think the last time I bought one was around the £12/13 mark and was really good value as the park & ride wasn't in existence or at least a very small operation and parking was about £8 near the station at York, Last year when I checked the price and it had jumped up so much I was gobsmacked. Based on my own observations at Middlesbrough, the TPE service does well, even on midweek services at 9/10/11 o'clock in the morning and Saturdays, especially race days, can be rammed so TPE must be on a nice earner.

Ah, so perhaps the TPE side of things it sounds like.

 

[ainsworth74]

I mean the fare is priced by TPE so yes it would be them you should direct any complaints at. Though I'm not sure it's risen by any greater amount than any other fares priced by TPE or any other operator?