Which junctions would you grade-separate?

[swt_passenger]

I remember seeing a concept drawing that had a flyover a fair distance to the east, might have been before NR built the big office though...

I'd do the separation to the west of the station though maybe just of the down line running along the back of platform 4. It'd mean a flat crossing of the Reading line, which wouldn't be ideal, but would avoid crossing the SWML. Could take both lines round the back of the station with extra platform and bridge works - stick shortish platforms to the east of the site and start climbing before the Vyne Road bridge to stand a chance of getting up and down before Worting Junction! Either way we're talking magic money tree territory.

The diagram of the grade separation in the 2015 route study shows the ROC etc on the site as built, and still had the flyover just east of the station, but west of Barton Mill sidings, so we can presumably believe it must fit?

NR Wessex route study 2015 Fig 5.7 on page 82 has the sketch:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wessex-Route-Study-Final-210815-1-1.pdf

 

[Legolash2o]

A diveunder in a peat bog adjacent to a river, what could possibly go wrong?

As long as the portals are above ground and the tunnel is water tight, it may be ok.

Alternatively, assuming you can get land rights, you could build a new track from somewhere north of Soham, and have it connect to the curve, with some flyovers.

 

[HSTEd]

Ardwick to have trains not cross every line to get towards Trafford Park / Oxford Road.

Given unlimited funds, I'd probably move Piccadilly station to the opposite side on the south and make it a through station. Freight could then go around the new station via what is currently platform 13/14, or the new south lines.

Forgive my rubbish diagram

I've thought about this alot.

I think further west along the castlefield corridor is the ideal location, occupying the old University of Manchester North Campus site.
The station would replace both Oxford Road and Picadilly and would require the oxford road bus route be somewhat diverted.

 

[Falcon1200]

Nothing in Scotland mentioned yet! So;

Gretna Jc
Law Jc
Greenhill Upper Jc

 

[Senex]

Dore- how many conflicting movements per hour? per day??

If money's no object I'd do Dore by restoring the four tracks down to Sheffield (compulsory purchase of a fairly small portion of Tesco) and clearing out the dive-under there to get the non-conflict.

And then add to that sort Manchester out, though that's far more than just a simple flyover that's needed.

And replace the GWR horror at Westerleigh with a sweeping curve and down-line flyover towards Parkway.

 

[The Planner]

Ardwick to have trains not cross every line to get towards Trafford Park / Oxford Road.

Given unlimited funds, I'd probably move Piccadilly station to the opposite side on the south and make it a through station. Freight could then go around the new station via what is currently platform 13/14, or the new south lines (highlighted in red below).

Forgive my rubbish diagram

View attachment 178396

Next to nothing goes across the throat anyway. Freight to Trafford Park is going to/from Crewe.

Nothing in Scotland mentioned yet! So;

Gretna Jc
Law Jc
Greenhill Upper Jc

Gretna is tenuous!

 

[Legolash2o]

Next to nothing goes across the throat anyway. Freight to Trafford Park is going to/from Crewe.

Ah ok, would moving the station in a similar fashion to how I crudely drew still be better? Even if you exclude the across throat movements?

 

[waverley47]

Nice to see data informing choices.

Would action on Colwich be the same irrespective of HS2 'developments'?

Which, if any, would you consider a quick political win?? I sense Ely North has been 'warmed up' in political preparation, linking to East-West railand growth- rail-accessible housing in 'the arc' and Felixstowe Port exports.

Others could be 'mitigated' by longer, less frequent, trains with fewer conflicting moves, eg London 'suburbs', incl Basingstoke, Woking, and Selhurst, assuming more Working From Home meaning fewer commuters?

Easiest and cheapest win?

Probably Greenhill Upper. Although the benefits would be questionable for the cost. Law Junction, although again, questionable BCR.

In terms of actual benefit, the highest BCR would undoubtedly be Woking. It would be expensive, although not as expensive as one might imagine. You could do the whole thing in railway land, and you'd have to demolish a bridge, but the main cost would be the blockade you'd need to build the thing and reshuffle the track geometry.

Politically, the Selhurst Triangle is going to need to happen at some point. Capacity is limited at East Croydon station, and the whole scheme would cost an arm and a leg, but the benefits would be substantial. Think of all those juicy marginal constituencies in the London commuter belt.

Four tracking Wigston Jn to Syston Jn, including grade separation of the former, is already necessary for capacity, but doing so would be a very very visible investment in the Midlands.

I suspect South Kirkby Jn or Swinton Jn might need doing at some point, probably the former as it would be easier. Grade separation would allow you probably an extra path each hour, and combined with electrification from Fitzwilliam to Sheffield, would massively benefit South Yorkshire's rail network. Swinton Jn would be expensive, South Kirkby Jn cheaper, but you're still building a new bridge and new alignment over the ECML.

Remodeling Golbourne Jn to take the line over the WCML and connecting onto the slows would be great as a nice to have, politically very easy, and if you took the line as a possession for a month you could do it cheaply.

 

[Snow1964]

Bristol Temple Meads could do with a single reversible flyover from between the running tracks (Bath direction) to north eastern bays, to avoid Portsmouth trains crossing on flat to north side on flat to continue towards Severn tunnel.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Doncaster (Marshgate Jn).

 

[Falcon1200]

Gretna is tenuous!

Probably, yes! Unless the coal trains resume...

Law Junction, although again, questionable BCR.

There appears to be a ready-made solution, with the former Garriongill branch passing under the Up and Down Wishaw lines, where the Up main line could be diverted.

 

[Magdalia]

As long as the portals are above ground and the tunnel is water tight, it may be ok.

No it won't be ok. The Fen expands and shrinks according to the weather, with an overall trend of shrinkage. Most of the Fens doesn't even have mains gas or mains sewage because the pipes would fracture. The tunnel would be moving all the time, under stress and strain, and would not be water tight for long.

Alternatively, assuming you can get land rights, you could build a new track from somewhere north of Soham, and have it connect to the curve, with some flyovers.

This would be about 3 miles long, has to cross the A142 and the river, and at the north end finishes in a lake.

 

[Legolash2o]

No it won't be ok. The Fen expands and shrinks according to the weather, with an overall trend of shrinkage. Most of the Fens doesn't even have mains gas or mains sewage because the pipes would fracture. The tunnel would be moving all the time, under stress and strain, and would not be water tight for long.

That's cool information but also incredible scary. Thank you for teaching me something new and insightful!

 

[Oxfordblues]

A new tunnel from Moreton Cutting (Down Main) to Didcot North Junction (Down Oxford) perhaps? But it would be hugely expensive just to mitigate a handful of conflicts per day.

 

[zwk500]

A new tunnel from Moreton Cutting (Down Main) to Didcot North Junction (Down Oxford) perhaps? But it would be hugely expensive just to mitigate a handful of conflicts per day.

Alternatively, a 'Didcot avoider avoider' from South Moreton to Culham, which cuts out 2 stations of the local train, eases the conflicts, and allows the existing avoiders to be used for freight without risking delaying the fast services. Would need the slows slueing out north a bit to fit in the Up Main flyover.

 

[BrianW]

The diagram of the grade separation in the 2015 route study shows the ROC etc on the site as built, and still had the flyover just east of the station, but west of Barton Mill sidings, so we can presumably believe it must fit?

NR Wessex route study 2015 Fig 5.7 on page 82 has the sketch:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wessex-Route-Study-Final-210815-1-1.pdf

The Woking plans published by Network Rail in 2015. how long must matters take to move along? Make Great British Railways great sometime/ in the fullness of time/ when the time is right ...

 

[Zomboid]

The aspiration to grade separate Woking goes back to Southern days. One day it might get to the top of the list.

 

[Nottingham59]

1. Colwich, Shugborough Tunnel and Stafford South by building HS2 phase 2a to Whitmore.
2. Crewe North Junction by building the HS2 tunnel under Crewe, or bypassing the town to the East
3. Ardwick, Slade Lane, Edgeley, Cheadle Hulme and Wilmslow by building HS2 to Manchester centre.

 

[43096]

More votes here for:
Slade Lane
Woking
Basingstoke
Newark crossing

 

[Legolash2o]

The aspiration to grade separate Woking goes back to Southern days. One day it might get to the top of the list.

How much do you reckon it would cost?

 

[Zomboid]

How much do you reckon it would cost?

In all honesty it doesn't look like the hardest of all the possible junctions to do, and there seems to be more of an appetite these days to do these kind of things in major blockades. Though there's no universe where doing that to the SWML will be cheap...

So expensive, but not beyond the realms of a sensible business case.

 

[PMN1]

The aspiration to grade separate Woking goes back to Southern days. One day it might get to the top of the list.

Have any plans been generated?

 

[Zomboid]

Southern would have done something, as the original traction substation was designed with space for the flyover.

 

[Helvellyn]

Other honourable mentions are Basingstoke, which has a statistically outrageous amount of delay minutes per delay incident. This is of course compounded but the fact that almost all freight crosses the up fast, and the junction is directly adjacent to the station, making any intervention worth the cost impossible.

I remember seeing a concept drawing that had a flyover a fair distance to the east, might have been before NR built the big office though...

I'd do the separation to the west of the station though maybe just of the down line running along the back of platform 4. It'd mean a flat crossing of the Reading line, which wouldn't be ideal, but would avoid crossing the SWML. Could take both lines round the back of the station with extra platform and bridge works - stick shortish platforms to the east of the site and start climbing before the Vyne Road bridge to stand a chance of getting up and down before Worting Junction! Either way we're talking magic money tree territory.

The diagram of the grade separation in the 2015 route study shows the ROC etc on the site as built, and still had the flyover just east of the station, but west of Barton Mill sidings, so we can presumably believe it must fit?

NR Wessex route study 2015 Fig 5.7 on page 82 has the sketch:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wessex-Route-Study-Final-210815-1-1.pdf

I think that the original scope for Basingstoke Area Resignalling Scheme (BARS) in the late 2000s had plans to turn the siding next to platform 4 into a bidirectional through line (necessitating demolition of the rear station entrance) to allow freight to Southampton to pass through the station at the rear then run on a fifth line towards Worting Junction to be threaded across the other lines between trains more easily. Believe it got descoped then the Up Side siding South of the station that would have been part of the fidth line was needed for extra stabling with the mid-2010s HLOS expansion across the route.

 

[PTR 444]

I'm surprised to be only the second person suggesting Colwich Junction. Especially now HS2 isn't happening that far north.

Assuming some sort of watered down rail link is built from Handsacre to Hixon, there wouldn’t be much point in doing so since all London - Manchester trains wouldn’t be touching Colwich (or any of the main WCML for that matter) at all.

Although if you built another watered down rail link from Hixon (or more likely somewhere north of there) to Baldwins Gate, you’d probably need to grade separate the junctions to prevent a repeat of Colwich from the start.

 

[Gloster]

The aspiration to grade separate Woking goes back to Southern days. One day it might get to the top of the list.

It goes back even longer than that. The London & South Western Railway was considering it before The Great War.

 

[The Planner]

Remodeling Golbourne Jn to take the line over the WCML and connecting onto the slows would be great as a nice to have, politically very easy, and if you took the line as a possession for a month you could do it cheaply.

Hardly anything uses the slows, and if you blocked the WCML there for a month the compensation cost would be immense.

 

[Helvellyn]

The aspiration to grade separate Woking goes back to Southern days. One day it might get to the top of the list.

Southern would have done something, as the original traction substation was designed with space for the flyover.

The necessary land was in BR hands until the 1980s I believe, then sold off. It's still possible to build a flyover but just becomes more complex.

What's sometimes missed is that a flyover at Woking Junction has the potential to also allow a lot of the conflicting moves to get trains into/out of platform 3 to be eliminated. The Waterloo-Woking stoppers could either terminate in platform 5, run ECS towards Guildford (would need a turnback siding) then return via the flyover to depart from platform 1. Or even be run to Guildford and turned back there (but platform capacity might be tight).

A flyover at Basingstoke doesn't deal with the conflicting moves there in that Up stopping services from there having to cross all lines to access the Up Slow from platform 1 (Down Slow).

 

[Zomboid]

flyover at Basingstoke doesn't deal with the conflicting moves there in that Up stopping services from there having to cross all lines to access the Up Slow from platform 1 (Down Slow).

It wouldn't necessarily have to, as there's always the option (in theory at least) to put a turn back siding between the tracks beyond Worting Jn, if that were a serious constraint.

 

[brad465]

Herne Hill, but goodness knows where the space for this is.