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Which junctions would you grade-separate?

Legolash2o

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27 Sep 2018
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As the title suggests, which junctions that are not already grade separated would you do?

What are your top three junctions?

My top three are:
-Manchester Piccadilly (Adwick Ardwick Jn - somehow)
-Micklefield Jn with some track realignment (flyover) - just because of the Transpennine Route Upgrade works.
-Ely Dock Jn (diveunder)
 
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Legolash2o

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I didn't realise Darlington was that bad? I've updated the original post with some random ones I've chosen.
 

SteveM70

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Northallerton already does have a 2nd route but annoyingly has 3 level crossings. Shame they can't put that track in a cutting so remove those crossings.

Northallerton is already grade-separated....unless, of course, you want a down train to stop at the station!

Exactly that. Pair of platforms on the lower level is what I meant I suppose. Sorry
 

Legolash2o

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Northallerton is already grade-separated....unless, of course, you want a down train to stop at the station!
True! I remember reading something that they want to four track the station and build another grade separated junction north of the town going towards Middlesbrough.

I suspect it won't happen and if they wanted to four track the station, they may have to move that new lift they've put in.

They also said they'd keep the old/existing track but I'd rather they turn it into a good cycle path to more easily get to the train station.
 

BrianW

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As the title suggests, which junctions that are not already grade separated would you do?

What are your top three junctions?

My top three are:
-Manchester Piccadilly (Adwick Jn - somehow)
-Micklefield Jn with some track realignment (flyover)
-Ely Dock Jn (diveunder)
Do you mean Ardwick? I'm sure something could be configured around Fairfield Street/ Platform 15/16 esp given that public transport provision is so much higher in peole's thinking/ Mayor Burnham etc. Road closures also better accepted. And how long mustMayfield fester on ... ?

Regarding Adwick- if you do mean that- IIUC, the triangle there has two single lead junctions which I am sure could be readily reeengineerd if that could improve capacity and flows.

Generally- how much might a reengineering like a flyover cost in relation to improved capacity; esp if tracks still need to merge somewhere up- or down-stream?
 

D6130

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Keymer Junction. Although the tight curve and surrounding housing - not to mention Wivelsfield station - would make it difficult and very expensive.
 

BrianW

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Newark
Northallerton
Darlington

Simples
I see a number of 'votes' for Newark. Although trains could be held at Newark Castle station in order to 'fit in' to a gap in the ECML service, it still needs there to be such a gap- into which perhaps a busier and better paying London train could be fitted. It must be nightmare to timetable and manage, so that has my vote. Did I not see plans being worked up for it in relation to parallel A46 improvements?
 

Legolash2o

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Do you mean Ardwick? I'm sure something could be configured around Fairfield Street/ Platform 15/16 esp given that public transport provision is so much higher in peole's thinking/ Mayor Burnham etc. Road closures also better accepted. And how long mustMayfield fester on ... ?

Regarding Adwick- if you do mean that- IIUC, the triangle there has two single lead junctions which I am sure could be readily reeengineerd if that could improve capacity and flows.

Generally- how much might a reengineering like a flyover cost in relation to improved capacity; esp if tracks still need to merge somewhere up- or down-stream?
Yes, Ardwick Jn sorry!

What would people think about Dore West Jn for trains coming from the west and going south?
 

zwk500

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I didn't realise Darlington was that bad? I've updated the original post with some random ones I've chosen.
It won't be once the new platform is done.

Personally, Didcot East, the Croydon Carbuncle and Slade Lane would be top of my list, followed quickly by Keymer Jn, Westerleigh or Filton Diamond, and Basingstoke.
 

Zomboid

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I'm surprised to be only the second person suggesting Colwich Junction. Especially now HS2 isn't happening that far north.

Crewe, too (somehow) for passenger trains (Manchester/ WCML, ideally Chester as well but I think that's some kind of fantasy, even in this fantasy world)
 

Legolash2o

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The only thing I think you can do with Newark Flat Crossing is to put the east-west route (NOB1) onto a viaduct/embankment with the curve junction (NSE) starting further east to ease the gradient. You may also have to change the A46 Newark Bypass so that it would go under the new viaduct instead of over it.

It'll be expensive either way!
 

InTheEastMids

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I see a number of 'votes' for Newark. Although trains could be held at Newark Castle station in order to 'fit in' to a gap in the ECML service, it still needs there to be such a gap- into which perhaps a busier and better paying London train could be fitted. It must be nightmare to timetable and manage, so that has my vote. Did I not see plans being worked up for it in relation to parallel A46 improvements?

The A46 upgrade is going through DCO at the moment. I think the main aim is to keep the main option (new bridge directly to South of flat crossing) open.
 

waverley47

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Statistically, the flat junction with the highest timetable impact in the country would be Woking. It's such a capacity constraint that quite a large section of the mainline timetable out of Waterloo is written to avoid conflicting moves from the Portsmouth Direct Line.

The worst performing junction in terms of train congestion is the Selhurst Triangle complex, north of East Croydon. It's not the junction with the highest amount of delay minutes, as each train is generally delayed for a short period, however there are lots of trains, and therefore statistically is the junction complex with the highest number of trains delayed.

I don't know which junction in the country has the highest number of delay minutes, or highest delay per incident, however for a couple of years it was Acton Wells Junction. Basically, a couple of incidents where something failed across the junction, and the resulting delay to almost every freight service in London, and all the overground services, and you very quickly start racking up the delays.

Other honourable mentions are Basingstoke, which has a statistically outrageous amount of delay minutes per delay incident. This is of course compounded but the fact that almost all freight crosses the up fast, and the junction is directly adjacent to the station, making any intervention worth the cost impossible.

Newark flat junction is a timetabling and infrastructure nightmare, simply because it's very hard to ensure everything presents at the crossing at the correct time. Additionally, the maintenance cost of the junction is very high, due to the number of trains, the very high average speed, and the number of very long, heavy freights hammering the crossing into the ballast.

Heaton Norris and Slade Lane junctions together propagate delays across a wide swathe of the country. It would be a phenomenally expensive job to remodel the whole section from Stockport to Slade Lane to paired by use, however the benefits from a timetabling perspective would be highly beneficial. Statistically, this section is notorious for having both a high number of delay incidents, and a high delay per incident, and is of course compounded by completely life expired signalling infrastructure, held together with sticky tape and WD40.

Colwich is an interesting one, mainly that the junction is a capacity constraint, but the flat junction itself is a workable, if unnerving, pinch point. Grade separation would give you an extra 2 paths per hour in each direction from memory, which is neither here nor there with HS2 coming. The main benefit to grade separation would be to completely remodel the junction, and being able to stack down freights out of the way on the down slow before Colwich, and then flighting them through Shugborough. It would take a lot more than just grade separation to remove the pinch point.

Ely has been done to death, again one of those junctions that's not really an issue if everything presents on time, and therefore a junction with low numbers of delay incidents. However, the proximity of the line to Ely station, giving enough space for one freight between them, the three single lead junctions, the loop line and the yard, conspire to mean that any incidents have a very high impact.
 

Legolash2o

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Statistically, the flat junction with the highest timetable impact in the country would be Woking. It's such a capacity constraint that quite a large section of the mainline timetable out of Waterloo is written to avoid conflicting moves from the Portsmouth Direct Line.

The worst performing junction in terms of train congestion is the Selhurst Triangle complex, north of East Croydon. It's not the junction with the highest amount of delay minutes, as each train is generally delayed for a short period, however there are lots of trains, and therefore statistically is the junction complex with the highest number of trains delayed.

I don't know which junction in the country has the highest number of delay minutes, or highest delay per incident, however for a couple of years it was Acton Wells Junction. Basically, a couple of incidents where something failed across the junction, and the resulting delay to almost every freight service in London, and all the overground services, and you very quickly start racking up the delays.

Other honourable mentions are Basingstoke, which has a statistically outrageous amount of delay minutes per delay incident. This is of course compounded but the fact that almost all freight crosses the up fast, and the junction is directly adjacent to the station, making any intervention worth the cost impossible.

Newark flat junction is a timetabling and infrastructure nightmare, simply because it's very hard to ensure everything presents at the crossing at the correct time. Additionally, the maintenance cost of the junction is very high, due to the number of trains, the very high average speed, and the number of very long, heavy freights hammering the crossing into the ballast.

Heaton Norris and Slade Lane junctions together propagate delays across a wide swathe of the country. It would be a phenomenally expensive job to remodel the whole section from Stockport to Slade Lane to paired by use, however the benefits from a timetabling perspective would be highly beneficial. Statistically, this section is notorious for having both a high number of delay incidents, and a high delay per incident, and is of course compounded by completely life expired signalling infrastructure, held together with sticky tape and WD40.

Colwich is an interesting one, mainly that the junction is a capacity constraint, but the flat junction itself is a workable, if unnerving, pinch point. Grade separation would give you an extra 2 paths per hour in each direction from memory, which is neither here nor there with HS2 coming. The main benefit to grade separation would be to completely remodel the junction, and being able to stack down freights out of the way on the down slow before Colwich, and then flighting them through Shugborough. It would take a lot more than just grade separation to remove the pinch point.

Ely has been done to death, again one of those junctions that's not really an issue if everything presents on time, and therefore a junction with low numbers of delay incidents. However, the proximity of the line to Ely station, giving enough space for one freight between them, the three single lead junctions, the loop line and the yard, conspire to mean that any incidents have a very high impact.
Very insightful, thank you!
 

The Planner

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Not sure why you would do Ardwick, or Heaton Norris myself. Colwich just needs some sort of Phase 2A solution and you would ignore it from then on. Most others have been mentioned.
 

Zomboid

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Other honourable mentions are Basingstoke, which has a statistically outrageous amount of delay minutes per delay incident. This is of course compounded but the fact that almost all freight crosses the up fast, and the junction is directly adjacent to the station, making any intervention worth the cost impossible
I remember seeing a concept drawing that had a flyover a fair distance to the east, might have been before NR built the big office though...

I'd do the separation to the west of the station though maybe just of the down line running along the back of platform 4. It'd mean a flat crossing of the Reading line, which wouldn't be ideal, but would avoid crossing the SWML. Could take both lines round the back of the station with extra platform and bridge works - stick shortish platforms to the east of the site and start climbing before the Vyne Road bridge to stand a chance of getting up and down before Worting Junction! Either way we're talking magic money tree territory.
 

HSTEd

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The junction complex west of Manchester Oxford ROad.

If it could be untangled the capacity of the Castlefield corridor could be increased substantially.
 

BrianW

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Statistically, the flat junction with the highest timetable impact in the country would be Woking. It's such a capacity constraint that quite a large section of the mainline timetable out of Waterloo is written to avoid conflicting moves from the Portsmouth Direct Line.

The worst performing junction in terms of train congestion is the Selhurst Triangle complex, north of East Croydon. It's not the junction with the highest amount of delay minutes, as each train is generally delayed for a short period, however there are lots of trains, and therefore statistically is the junction complex with the highest number of trains delayed.

I don't know which junction in the country has the highest number of delay minutes, or highest delay per incident, however for a couple of years it was Acton Wells Junction. Basically, a couple of incidents where something failed across the junction, and the resulting delay to almost every freight service in London, and all the overground services, and you very quickly start racking up the delays.

Other honourable mentions are Basingstoke, which has a statistically outrageous amount of delay minutes per delay incident. This is of course compounded but the fact that almost all freight crosses the up fast, and the junction is directly adjacent to the station, making any intervention worth the cost impossible.

Newark flat junction is a timetabling and infrastructure nightmare, simply because it's very hard to ensure everything presents at the crossing at the correct time. Additionally, the maintenance cost of the junction is very high, due to the number of trains, the very high average speed, and the number of very long, heavy freights hammering the crossing into the ballast.

Heaton Norris and Slade Lane junctions together propagate delays across a wide swathe of the country. It would be a phenomenally expensive job to remodel the whole section from Stockport to Slade Lane to paired by use, however the benefits from a timetabling perspective would be highly beneficial. Statistically, this section is notorious for having both a high number of delay incidents, and a high delay per incident, and is of course compounded by completely life expired signalling infrastructure, held together with sticky tape and WD40.

Colwich is an interesting one, mainly that the junction is a capacity constraint, but the flat junction itself is a workable, if unnerving, pinch point. Grade separation would give you an extra 2 paths per hour in each direction from memory, which is neither here nor there with HS2 coming. The main benefit to grade separation would be to completely remodel the junction, and being able to stack down freights out of the way on the down slow before Colwich, and then flighting them through Shugborough. It would take a lot more than just grade separation to remove the pinch point.

Ely has been done to death, again one of those junctions that's not really an issue if everything presents on time, and therefore a junction with low numbers of delay incidents. However, the proximity of the line to Ely station, giving enough space for one freight between them, the three single lead junctions, the loop line and the yard, conspire to mean that any incidents have a very high impact.
Nice to see data informing choices.

Would action on Colwich be the same irrespective of HS2 'developments'?

Which, if any, would you consider a quick political win?? I sense Ely North has been 'warmed up' in political preparation, linking to East-West railand growth- rail-accessible housing in 'the arc' and Felixstowe Port exports.

Others could be 'mitigated' by longer, less frequent, trains with fewer conflicting moves, eg London 'suburbs', incl Basingstoke, Woking, and Selhurst, assuming more Working From Home meaning fewer commuters?
 

Magdalia

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Ely has been done to death, again one of those junctions that's not really an issue if everything presents on time, and therefore a junction with low numbers of delay incidents. However, the proximity of the line to Ely station, giving enough space for one freight between them, the three single lead junctions, the loop line and the yard, conspire to mean that any incidents have a very high impact.

Which, if any, would you consider a quick political win?? I sense Ely North has been 'warmed up' in political preparation, linking to East-West railand growth- rail-accessible housing in 'the arc' and Felixstowe Port exports.
The Ely North Junction upgrade proposal did not include any railway grade separation, only lots of expensive road viaducts to permit level crossing closures. Recent experience with the Ely southern bypass and the Kings Dyke bridge show what a good idea this is.

Bear in mind that the railway at Ely floats on the Fen and in most places the rock is a long way down, apart from a short section of the Peterborough line, which cuts through the north end of the Isle of Ely at Chettisham.

Furthermore the River Ouse is adjacent to the railway with 4 bridges, 2 bridges near the station plus a bridge for the Norwich line near Ely North Junction and a bridge near Ely Dock Junction for the Ipswich line.

The only plausible grade separation would be for the Peterborough and Kings Lynn lines, with a flying junction halfway to Chettisham and about a mile of new track to rejoin the existing Kings Lynn line.


Ely Dock Jn (diveunder)

A diveunder in a peat bog adjacent to a river, what could possibly go wrong?
 

Legolash2o

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Not sure why you would do Ardwick, or Heaton Norris myself. Colwich just needs some sort of Phase 2A solution and you would ignore it from then on. Most others have been mentioned.
Ardwick to have trains not cross every line to get towards Trafford Park / Oxford Road.

Given unlimited funds, I'd probably move Piccadilly station to the opposite side on the south and make it a through station. Freight could then go around the new station via what is currently platform 13/14, or the new south lines (highlighted in red below).

Forgive my rubbish diagram :D

1744733949776.png
 
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