Whither XC after HS2?

[HST43257]

I think 6tph could be good for local journeys, but interspersed with 6tph fast/with one stop, if that could be pathed.

4tph stopper, 4tph 1 stop and 4tph non stop I say. Non stop has to slow a bit behind stopper but thatd be ok.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the stopping pattern between Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street, 4 local all stations, 4 traditional InterCity calling Sandwell & Dudley, and 2 Regional Express (1 from each of Wales via Shrewsbury and North West Region via Stoke-on-Trent) calling Smethwick Galton Bridge (maybe also Dudley Port for interchange with Midland Metro trams).

 

[Purple Orange]

How are you pathing 6tph Wolves-New St all stations, with the other faster services which will still use this line? Such as those via Shrewsbury (maybe with stoppers among them) and those via Crewe, but not to Manchester. Seems like a skip/semi or flighted arrangement would be necessary.

Also, you probably don't need 8tph+ stopping from Wolves to B'ham. I think 6tph could be good for local journeys, but interspersed with 6tph fast/with one stop, if that could be pathed.

That rough service pattern I suggested would fit in to the 6+6 formation you suggested. 6 stoppers from Manchester + 1 XC Bristol-Manchester + 1 London-Manchester ICWC + 2 LNW Liverpool -Birmingham + 2 TfW.

 

[cle]

I’d think more than 2tph to Telford and Shrewsbury by then. Some hours now there are 3-4tph with WMT slows and semis in the mix. Plus aspirations for more London and hourly on both Wales routes.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d think more than 2tph to Telford and Shrewsbury by then. Some hours now there are 3-4tph with WMT slows and semis in the mix. Plus aspirations for more London and hourly on both Wales routes.

The 4 WMT services are incorporated in the Manchester slows at 116 mins:

Northern Piccadilly to Crewe/Stockport​

LNW Crewe/Stoke to Wolverhampton​

WMT Wolverhampton to New Street​

​

There it would depend if additional Telford/Shrewsbury can be worked in.

 

[adrock1976]

The 4 WMT services are incorporated in the Manchester slows at 116 mins:

Northern Piccadilly to Crewe/Stockport​

LNW Crewe/Stoke to Wolverhampton​

WMT Wolverhampton to New Street​

​

There it would depend if additional Telford/Shrewsbury can be worked in.

Also, don't forget the Rugeley TV - International merging in at Soho South Jct between Smethwick Rolfe Street and New Street.

The ideal situation would be for there to be quad track between Wolverhampton and Coventry, but would be very difficult due to the canal between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, and residential properties, airport runway, Berkswell Tunnel, and the posh King Henry VIII school playing fields between Birmingham and Coventry.

 

[Purple Orange]

Also, don't forget the Rugeley TV - International merging in at Soho South Jct between Smethwick Rolfe Street and New Street.

The ideal situation would be for there to be quad track between Wolverhampton and Coventry, but would be very difficult due to the canal between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, and residential properties, airport runway, Berkswell Tunnel, and the posh King Henry VIII school playing fields between Birmingham and Coventry.

I guess on that basis, we have to assume there would be no infrastructure upgrade. For the cost of doing so, it would be far better focussing attention on electrifying routes elsewhere.

 

[Aictos]

No mention of the SE to NW axis eg Stansted Airport to Birmingham New Street and how HS2 will affect it.

 

[adrock1976]

No mention of the SE to NW axis eg Stansted Airport to Birmingham New Street and how HS2 will affect it.

That's not a proper InterCity Cross Country route at all.

This section (along with Nottingham - Cardiff) was formed from the carve up of the former Central Trains franchise (which was previously Regional Railways Central under BR).

 

[JamesT]

No mention of the SE to NW axis eg Stansted Airport to Birmingham New Street and how HS2 will affect it.

Presumably because the answer is: Not at all?
HS2 isn't running in parallel with that route, so there's no relief. The WC services that HS2 will take away from New Street will likely be replaced by increasing the frequency of stopping services on the WCML, so no extra capacity for more services from the Stansted route.

 

[Glenn1969]

Also HS2 doesn't serve Coventry and Wolverhampton which is why existing WCML services need to be maintained

 

[Purple Orange]

Also HS2 doesn't serve Coventry and Wolverhampton which is why existing WCML services need to be maintained

Not quite. Wolverhampton & Coventry doesn’t need 2 fast tph to Manchester, but Birmingham does. With a majority of XC passengers moved across to HS2, it might be better for 1 semi-fast service connecting Wolverhampton & Coventry to Manchester, and an additional local stopper in place of the other XC path. For London, there is 1 tph today from Wolverhampton and there is no suggestion that will be lost. Coventry may fall from 3 tph to 2 tph, but the 3rd path is replaced by something more useful to residents along the route.

 

[Aictos]

That's not a proper InterCity Cross Country route at all.

This section (along with Nottingham - Cardiff) was formed from the carve up of the former Central Trains franchise (which was previously Regional Railways Central under BR).

By that, TPE services are not InterCity XC either as they were formed from carving up of the then First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern franchises.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By that, TPE services are not InterCity XC either as they were formed from carving up of the then First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern franchises.

Indeed they aren't really, they are regional expresses with posh rolling stock, very similar to the XC Class 170 routes.

TPE like to shout about being InterCity but they aren't really, other than the WCML service which was once XC operated. It's a bit like the "Quality Hotel" or the "Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea"...if you have to shout it...

 

[Purple Orange]

Indeed they aren't really, they are regional expresses with posh rolling stock, very similar to the XC Class 170 routes.

TPE like to shout about being InterCity but they aren't really, other than the WCML service which was once XC operated. It's a bit like the "Quality Hotel" or the "Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea"...if you have to shout it...

Perhaps a debate for another thread, but if XC or TPE are not intercity, then what on earth is intercity? To my eyes, both are Intercity services. They form the fast service between various cities, using trains that look like an intercity train, hence being intercity.

When you’re on the train with XC or TPE, unless it is a 170 or 185, then it doesn’t feel like you’re on a short distance commuter train, but rather embarking on a long distance journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps a debate for another thread, but if XC or TPE are not intercity, then what on earth is intercity? To my eyes, both are Intercity services. They form the fast service between various cities, using trains that look like an intercity train, hence being intercity.

They are inter-city, but so is the District Line.

They aren't InterCity - those are long-distance services where the majority of people make long-distance journeys. TPE is no more InterCity than the NorthWest Express routes were (e.g. Barrow and Windermere) - unless you'd say they were?

When you’re on the train with XC or TPE, unless it is a 170 or 185, then it doesn’t feel like you’re on a short distance commuter train, but rather embarking on a long distance journey.

That's just because the stock has end doors, really.

 

[cle]

Intercity doesn't really mean anything anymore. And the goal posts move, which is fine.

After HS2, even if Coventry had 3tph to Euston, those would stop at Rugby, MKC and Watford rather than one of each. So still a good use of capacity - and they have to go somewhere. Coventry is bigger than the TV stations people obsess over.

Wolves-New St. The 4tph one stop, 4tph slow and 4tph fast makes sense to me. Both Smethwicks are busy, S&D of course is a historical railhead and Dudley Port as mentioned will be more of a hub with the light rail. So they can be spread pretty well to give 6tph.

Wolves doesn't need 2tph to Manchester, but nor does it need 2tph to Liverpool. It has them, because that train has to go that way, and performs a lot of different local, regional and a city to city role. The Manchester service will be the same, and if one goes via Stoke and one via Wilmslow, it's there automatically. Only one route to Liverpool.

 

[Purple Orange]

They are inter-city, but so is the District Line.

They aren't InterCity - those are long-distance services where the majority of people make long-distance journeys. TPE is no more InterCity than the NorthWest Express routes were (e.g. Barrow and Windermere) - unless you'd say they were?



That's just because the stock has end doors, really.

I don’t see how is the District Line comparable. Anyhow, I think making a distinction between LNER (I assume you class them as intercity), TPE and XC is something that is not the concern of passengers. Intercity is a fairly broad concept - you get on the big fast train to go to another city. Whether that train is 5, 8 or 11 cars in length or if it travels at any point at 125mph is not relevant. Long distance travel on what is deemed to be a fast train is the concept of Intercity in this country. Nobody outside of the rail industry (or this forum) has a concern for what is Regional Express or ‘semi-fast’.

If you’re a passenger from Newcastle who makes long distance journeys to Edinburgh frequently, or the other way to London, Birmingham or Manchester, there is no significant difference between LNER, XC or TPE to say to yourself: that LNER train is an Intercity train, but that TPE train that looks like the LNER train except for a different colour is not Intercity, while that foul smelling train but calls at Leeds, Birmingham & Bristol is not Intercity either.

Plus it’s not the end doors as such, it’s just the feel of the surroundings and the nature of the service. Perhaps end-doors contribute to that, but striking the difference in TOCs seems more like there is an attempt to distinguish Intercity as London to other cities, but not between those cities.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

They aren't InterCity - those are long-distance services where the majority of people make long-distance journeys.

That probably rules out many (most?) of XC's Voyager routes, and a fair chunk of GWR too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t see how is the District Line comparable. Anyhow, I think making a distinction between LNER (I assume you class them as intercity), TPE and XC is something that is not the concern of passengers. Intercity is a fairly broad concept - you get on the big fast train to go to another city. Whether that train is 5, 8 or 11 cars in length or if it travels at any point at 125mph is not relevant. Long distance travel on what is deemed to be a fast train is the concept of Intercity in this country. Nobody outside of the rail industry (or this forum) has a concern for what is Regional Express or ‘semi-fast’.

To give you an idea, I would say that the following operators, in England, run services that are in character InterCity:
Avanti West Coast - all services
LNER - all services
GWR - most services, but the slower Bristol services are perhaps a little debatable at times
XC - except the Class 170 services
GA - fast Norwich services only
TPE - WCML services only

I've left out Scotland and Wales as due to low populations things tend to be much more of a hybrid. However the "WAG Express" is InterCity (probably the only thing in Wales I'd say is, other than GWR incursions), and Edinburgh-Glasgow is inter-city but definitely not InterCity in character.

If we were talking of TPE, if they ran something a bit like Liverpool-Warrington C-Manchester Pic-Huddersfield-Leeds-York-Newcastle (no other stops) that would be leaning towards IC, but not the present services with far more stops than that.

Plus it’s not the end doors as such, it’s just the feel of the surroundings

I'm not sure why, given that to me a 350 is more comfortable than an 80x? But a 350 definitely doesn't feel InterCity. I think it is end doors and a pointy snout that gives that impression, to be honest.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps a debate for another thread, but if XC or TPE are not intercity, then what on earth is intercity? To my eyes, both are Intercity services. They form the fast service between various cities, using trains that look like an intercity train, hence being intercity.

When you’re on the train with XC or TPE, unless it is a 170 or 185, then it doesn’t feel like you’re on a short distance commuter train, but rather embarking on a long distance journey.

People aren’t saying all of XC isn’t intercity, they’re diffentiating between the two types of XC service, ie the longer distance Voyager operated routes, and the short midlands routes that should have stayed with the local regional operators. Often referred to as XC-lite...

 

[Purple Orange]

To give you an idea, I would say that the following operators, in England, run services that are in character InterCity:
Avanti West Coast - all services
LNER - all services
GWR - most services, but the slower Bristol services are perhaps a little debatable at times
XC - except the Class 170 services
GA - fast Norwich services only
TPE - WCML services only

I've left out Scotland and Wales as due to low populations things tend to be much more of a hybrid. However the "WAG Express" is InterCity (probably the only thing in Wales I'd say is, other than GWR incursions), and Edinburgh-Glasgow is inter-city but definitely not InterCity in character.

If we were talking of TPE, if they ran something a bit like Liverpool-Warrington C-Manchester Pic-Huddersfield-Leeds-York-Newcastle (no other stops) that would be leaning towards IC, but not the present services with far more stops than that.



I'm not sure why, given that to me a 350 is more comfortable than an 80x? But a 350 definitely doesn't feel InterCity. I think it is end doors and a pointy snout that gives that impression, to be honest.

I agree the ex-Central Trains XC services do not feel Intercity. TPE Newcastle services feel like an Intercity service to me, as do the TPE WCML services. Between the two, I see no difference in what really distinguishes them apart.

Plus if a 350 doesn’t feel intercity (which I agree), then TPE WCML can only have become Intercity upon using the Nova 2 units, therefore there is hardly any difference between that and the switch to 802s on the Newcastle services.

 

[The Planner]

Wolves-New St. The 4tph one stop, 4tph slow and 4tph fast makes sense to me. Both Smethwicks are busy, S&D of course is a historical railhead and Dudley Port as mentioned will be more of a hub with the light rail. So they can be spread pretty well to give 6tph.

4tph all stops? Not sure that is going to fit. You either have lots of dead space behind the stopper which could conceivably allow something off Soho to join or you will be skip stopping all the trains. For example a stopper leaves xx.00 and arrives New St xx.25. Next train cannot come in until xx.28. If that happened to be a fast it would leave Wolves at xx.11. Your next all station is leaving Wolves at xx.15.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus if a 350 doesn’t feel intercity (which I agree), then TPE WCML can only have become Intercity upon using the Nova 2 units, therefore there is hardly any difference between that and the switch to 802s on the Newcastle services.

Except the long distance between stops on the WCML.

 

[Purple Orange]

Except the long distance between stops on the WCML.

I’m not sure about that. It seems odd to say two services from Manchester to Edinburgh are different in nature, with one being intercity and the other not. Granted that they start at Liverpool & Manchester Airport respectively, but the stopping pattern for TPE (Intercity) routes is:

1. Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Heymarket, Edinburgh
2. Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow
3. Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester-le-Street (1tp2h), Newcastle
4. Liverpool, Newton, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Edinburgh

All have 11 stops, apart from MAN-NCL which as 12 or 13. On the ECML, those services call at stations that LNER operates too, as well as XC.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wolves-New St. The 4tph one stop, 4tph slow and 4tph fast makes sense to me.

It doesn’t to me. Not least because it would be impossible to timetable.

GWR - most services

What, even the Marlow shuttle?

 

[adrock1976]

After HS2, even if Coventry had 3tph to Euston, those would stop at Rugby, MKC and Watford rather than one of each. So still a good use of capacity - and they have to go somewhere. Coventry is bigger than the TV stations people obsess over.

Wolves-New St. The 4tph one stop, 4tph slow and 4tph fast makes sense to me. Both Smethwicks are busy, S&D of course is a historical railhead and Dudley Port as mentioned will be more of a hub with the light rail. So they can be spread pretty well to give 6tph.

Regarding the bolded bits:

Coventry will probably have 4tph Euston trains - 2 x InterCity West Coast calling Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, and Watford Junction as mentioned, plus 2 x London Midland/LNW (ex Network SouthEast) via Northampton. There may be scope for a local Birmingham - Northampton every 30 minutes in addition to the ex Network SouthEast as mentioned previously, making Coventry - Northampton 4tph. Warwickshire County Council are (or have been) campaigning for there to be no loss of connectivity, being as the county town of Warwick (plus Coventry and Northampton) not being served by HS2. Also, Warwickshire CC have been campaigning for Hillmorton station to reopen (based at Crick Road) so as to act as a parkway station for Rugby. Coventry - Rugby with my suggestion of 2 x local trains will still be 6tph, but with all trains calling at Rugby (one of each of the Avanti IC calls at one of Rugby, Milton Keynes, and Watford Jct after Coventry).

Regarding Smethwick, Rolfe Street used to have 4tph which were 2 x Wolverhampton and 2 x Stourbridge Junction (general standard pattern). In 1995 when Stourbridge line trains were reinstated to Snow Hill, Galton Bridge station was built (there was never a station there) so as to provide interchange to and from the Wolverhampton local trains so as to avoid going to Snow Hill or Moor Street and walking to New Street (also useful for passengers from the Solihull and Shirley arms heading to Wolverhampton). In all intents and purposes, Galton Bridge was also a replacement for Smethwick West, which eventually was formally closed. Before 1995, Rolfe Street was the closest station for Baggies fans travelling to home matches at The Hawthorns, where it was a hike from Rolfe Street via North Western Road, Brasshouse Lane, and Halfords Lane to the stadium. The Hawthorns station is very close, and is along Halfords Lane too.

Regarding your last sentence, you are suggesting 4tph each of one stop, all stations, and fast, but spreading them to provide 6tph? When I was at primary school many years ago doing the times tables, I am absolutely certain that 4 x 3 = 12, and 6 is half of that. Could you clarify exactly what you mean by your last sentence please?