Why are Great Northern and Thameslink separate brands?

[jfowkes]

Sitting at Kings Cross waiting for a train, it occurs to me that as far as I can see there is no benefit to the passenger of Great Northern and Thameslink being separate brands.

At least from the POV of services that terminate at Kings Cross or Moorgate, the services are more or less identical in terms of what the customer gets. An EMU, laid out for commuting, no catering, no staffing.

This seems like needless complexity, especially given they are both operated by the same TOC?

I can see that keeping the Thameslink brand makes sense for services operating through the core.

 

[signed]

It's technically the same thing and the same operator.

For the TL/GX/GN/SO-only tickets there is a legal action currently up on the GTR brands issue

'Valid only for travel on Thameslink services' Query

Hello everyone, I've been reading previous threads but have not seen anything on this topic from recent times but apologies if it has come up, I must've missed it. I commute from Three Bridges -> Victoria -> Tube to Hammersmith. I have always bought 'Zone 1-6 travel card - any permitted route'...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[roadierway77]

I can see that keeping the Thameslink brand makes sense for services operating through the core.

This is why the two brands exist. Services that run through the core are branded as Thameslink. Services that do not are branded as Great Northern, that way customers can easily differentiate which services run through London. There is a couple of exceptions to the former of course, but by and large, Thameslink core = Thameslink service.

 

[paul1609]

Its really been overtaken by nationalisation and Great British Railways. Great Northern, Southern and Thameslink are really no different fron LNER and Northern which have the same parent company you could really include MML as well and save on the operating costs.

 

[jfowkes]

This is why the two brands exist. Services that run through the core are branded as Thameslink. Services that do not are branded as Great Northern, that way customers can easily differentiate which services run through London. There is a couple of exceptions to the former of course, but by and large, Thameslink core = Thameslink service.

By my estimation, roughly half the GTR services from Kings Cross are Thameslink and half are GN (at least on this particular Sunday evening).

It's a small number of services taken as part of the whole, but still significant I'd say.

I guess my question might actually be "why are some GTR services from Kings Cross branded as Thameslink"?

 

[Royston Vasey]

By my estimation, roughly half the GTR services from Kings Cross are Thameslink and half are GN (at least on this particular Sunday evening).

It's a small number of services taken as part of the whole, but still significant I'd say.

I guess my question might actually be "why are some GTR services from Kings Cross branded as Thameslink"?

Ah yes but this is only because the core is closed so Thameslink is being routed into and terminating at Kings Cross.

Normally, the Cambridge, Ely, Peterborough and Kings Lynn services from KGX are all operated and branded Great Northern. So ordinarily no TL services originate or terminate there, in normal hours (there's an odd TL starter at 05:32 and terminator at 23:59 tomorrow for example).

There are some 700 operated services to CBG PBO ELY KLN but they're stated as GN operated. The trains clearly have a Thameslink logo on the side. An example the 08:12 to Ely, operated by GN but with a 700.

There was a 2-3 year period (when the Cambridge semifasts first became Brighton TL services), that the Cambridge stoppers became 700/0s and also became operated and branded Thameslink. This is because they were eventually supposed to run to Maidstone, but this plan has been permanently abandoned. At that point (May 2022 or 2023, I forget which) the Cambridge stoppers were rebranded Great Northern again and the 387 diagrams were modified to mostly interwork Cambridge to London stopper/London to King's Lynn services.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Another question is why is the Thameslink branding so absolutely, completely, soulless and dull?? The livery is reminiscent of a grey March day in England, the logo is weak and meaningless, for what is a brand that should carry hefty weight. The pre-privatisation livery and the original blue and gold Thameslink TOC livery were all better brands than what we have now. "Great Northern" is another brand that seems to not be bothering at all.

 

[Transilien]

Another question is why is the Thameslink branding so absolutely, completely, soulless and dull?? The livery is reminiscent of a grey March day in England, the logo is weak and meaningless, for what is a brand that should carry hefty weight. The pre-privatisation livery and the original blue and gold Thameslink TOC livery were all better brands than what we have now. "Great Northern" is another brand that seems to not be bothering at all.

Isn’t it a part of the newer guidelines that the dft put for Franchises to have the trains easily rebranded?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Isn’t it a part of the newer guidelines that the dft put for Franchises to have the trains easily rebranded?

How did I know the DfT would be part of the answer...

To be fair, that is sensible, but on the other hand, having a system that requires relatively frequent rebranding of trains, stations and signage was just stupid!

 

[renegademaster]

customers can easily differentiate which services run through London

I think they can tell that by which ones say King's cross and which ones say Brighton or Sutton on the front.

 

[Transilien]

To be fair, that is sensible, but on the other hand, having a system that requires relatively frequent rebranding of trains, stations and signage was just stupid!

Yes! GBR will fix this though

 

[Wolfie]

Its really been overtaken by nationalisation and Great British Railways. Great Northern, Southern and Thameslink are really no different fron LNER and Northern which have the same parent company you could really include MML as well and save on the operating costs.

I may be wrong but l understood that on occasion various GTR brands shared rolling stock and operated services for each other. Not something that LNER and Northern ever do.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I may be wrong but l understood that on occasion various GTR brands shared rolling stock and operated services for each other. Not something that LNER and Northern ever do.

Indeed hence why you sometimes see a Gatwick Express on a "local stopper" on the South coast, on either of the coast ways,

 

[yorkie]

Sitting at Kings Cross waiting for a train, it occurs to me that as far as I can see there is no benefit to the passenger of Great Northern and Thameslink being separate brands.

At least from the POV of services that terminate at Kings Cross or Moorgate, the services are more or less identical in terms of what the customer gets. An EMU, laid out for commuting, no catering, no staffing.

This seems like needless complexity, especially given they are both operated by the same TOC?

I can see that keeping the Thameslink brand makes sense for services operating through the core.

It's all the same TOC and there is no good reason for these brands to be separate.

It's the DfT's doing; and we all know how competent they are...!

I may be wrong but l understood that on occasion various GTR brands shared rolling stock and operated services for each other.

Many operators operate whatever stock is convenient, and while they may make all reasonable efforts to ensure correct branding, at times that will mean the branding is wrong.

Not something that LNER and Northern ever do.

LNER have not operated trains with incorrect branding for as long as I can remember; it has happened in the past when they leased trains with alternative branding.

Northern have operated trains with the wrong brand on various occasions, even if it hasn't happened very recently (?); there have been instances of TPE branded trains running Northern services and vice-versa, as well as trains inherited from various other TOCs which still had the old branding.

But neither woud be comparable to one company with multiple brands, putting out units with the wrong brand; neither Northern nor LNER operate trains with anything other than their regular brands, so it simply doesn't arise in quite the same way.

 

[Travelmonkey]

It's all the same TOC and there is no good reason for these brands to be separate.

Some destinction is beneficial to a certain extent e.g EMRs 3 sub brands although for Themeslink/great northern there is much more bluring of the lines.

 

[Horizon22]

Another question is why is the Thameslink branding so absolutely, completely, soulless and dull?? The livery is reminiscent of a grey March day in England, the logo is weak and meaningless, for what is a brand that should carry hefty weight. The pre-privatisation livery and the original blue and gold Thameslink TOC livery were all better brands than what we have now. "Great Northern" is another brand that seems to not be bothering at all.

Well originally GTR being brought together by the DfT was meant to be temporary for the large engineering works programme affecting the 4 areas (Southern, Thameslink, GN, GatEx) so that is partly why. It has now however been going on for 10 years and various events (Thameslink Programme, DOO strikes, Covid, the end to real 'franchising' and pending nationalisation) have all sort of combined into this 'temporary' brand going longer than many expected.

 

[Transilien]

Well originally GTR being brought together by the DfT was meant to be temporary for the large engineering works programme affecting the 4 areas (Southern, Thameslink, GN, GatEx) so that is partly why. It has now however been going on for 10 years and various events (Thameslink Programme, DOO strikes, Covid, the end to real 'franchising' and pending nationalisation) have all sort of combined into this 'temporary' brand going longer than many expected.

So the merger of Thameslink and WAGN was supposed to be temporary too?

 

[bramling]

It's all the same TOC and there is no good reason for these brands to be separate.

It's the DfT's doing; and we all know how competent they are...!

I don’t think having the separate brands is a terrible thing in principle, though as things haven’t panned out as envisaged things are more blurred than they might have been.

The original 2018 setup essentially gave us everything worked by a class 700 as Thameslink, and everything worked by a 365 or 387 as GN. This, more-or-less, meant in practice that everything through the core was Thameslink and everything to King’s Cross or Moorgate was GN, with a few exceptions mainly at the very start and end of the day, or during engineering work.

Since the 387s and 700s have been mixed up a bit more, this no longer holds true, although it’s still uncommon to find a 387 or 717 on a TL-branded service, the opposite is quite common.

On balance, personally I’d prefer the GN brand to stay, and be used in the way that it is. Though it introduced the problem of what is done about livery, as with the mixing up of the fleets it is impossible to have a dedicated livery working each brand of service. Hence the current fudge does work fairly well, even if it is rather boring and nondescript.

If we ever return to a situation where all of the GN-branded services are provided by a particular type of train then clearly there’s scope for something bolder.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure if it was meant to be temporary, or if it was more the case that they weren't certain it was going to be permanent?

 

[Horizon22]

So the merger of Thameslink and WAGN was supposed to be temporary too?

Well that happened way back in 2006.

The GTR franchise was marred with all sorts of difficulties from the very beginning of the tender and was a management contract in reality.

Really it was a North of London operation (Great Northern and Thameslink) & South of London (Southern & Gatwick Express) but the expansion/takeover of Thameslink to all areas (including areas it was never originally intended to go) has confused things more.

 

[bramling]

Well that happened way back in 2006.

Thameslink wasn’t cleanly merged with WAGN. What happened was WAGN was broken into two, with a large part of it integrated with the greater Anglia franchise. The rump survived for a while longer as a very small franchise, until merged with Thameslink as part of the FCC franchise.

 

[Transilien]

Really it was a North of London operation (Great Northern and Thameslink) & South of London (Southern & Gatwick Express) but the expansion/takeover of Thameslink to all areas (including areas it was never originally intended to go) has confused things more.

Thameslink however is just as much as a south of London operation as a north of London one though.

 

[Horizon22]

Thameslink however is just as much as a south of London operation as a north of London one though.

It is now, yes. But it wasn't much more than the Bedford-Brighton and Sutton Loop services prior to 2018.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'm not sure if it was meant to be temporary, or if it was more the case that they weren't certain it was going to be permanent?

What did they think was going to happen to it?

 

[Horizon22]

What did they think was going to happen to it?

Broken up again for refranchising at some point after 2018, but how that would occur is probably for speculative discussion!

 

[Transilien]

It is now, yes. But it wasn't much more than the Bedford-Brighton and Sutton Loop services prior to 2018.

Isn’t a lot of that route before 2018 south of London? The whole purpose of Thameslink was to link lines running south of London to ones that run north of London. It has been that way from the very start.

 

[Horizon22]

Isn’t a lot of that route before 2018 south of London? The whole purpose of Thameslink was to link lines running south of London to ones that run north of London. It has been that way from the very start.

Well compared to now when you have services to/from Rainham, Sevenoaks, Horsham, Orpington (extension to East Grinstead and originally mooted Maidstone/Ashford service) as well as an increased service to Brighton from the ECML via the Canal Tunnels it is much more a 'south of London' TOC than it ever was.

Some of these routes are ex-Southern or Southeastern services.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Broken up again for refranchising at some point after 2018, but how that would occur is probably for speculative discussion!

Break up Thameslink, merge half with the Northern franchise and give the remaining bits to Eurostar. Break it all up again and simply close Snow Hill tunnel. Sorted.

 

[uglymonkey]

They don't seem bothered by livery that much, I've seen the green door and stripe units alongside others as well as GWR deep green ( with the GWR logo faded out) as well.

 

[James H]

I find all the GTR posters and other comms with all the logos on a bit messy - if a brand is worth having it’s worth spending the ££ to do it properly

If you don’t want to spend the cash to make sure all your customer comms are brand specific, just choose one brand and use it for everything.