Why are Transport for Wales so slow at opening doors?

[L401CJF]

Many comments on the 197s but it’s the 150s I had in mind most of all when I wrote the original post. Ridiculous length of time waiting for guards to open doors. I’ve seen them have a chat with the other guard on the platform before opening passenger doors to let people off before. If I was cutting it fine with a connection I’d be furious.

The guards local door on 150s are incredibly slow to open on certain units which seems to take forever.

Interesting that you suggest 150s are the slowest to be opened up, I work them on the Bidston-Wrexham line where to have any chance of sticking to time you need to have a dwell time of negative seconds, they're one of the quicker units in terms of door release I find. On the Bidston line it's stop, open local, quick safety check, bang bang doors open bang bang doors closed and away we go.

The 197 door discussion above is very interesting. I have been working them for a year now and find them fairly quick once you get a routine going and are able to feel the door controls without looking at them. An interesting note that may explain some increased time before door release on a 197 is the microswitch on the cab door window. The cab door will not open with the window open. Sometimes you press open and it won't open even with the window shut, if the window isn't in full contact with the microswitch (even if you havnt opened it!) as they seem to rattle down a mm or 2.

So sometimes you'll press open, wait a second, nothing happens, try again, nothing happens, open window, slam window, press open again, door opens, step down for safety check, then release doors. Can easily add 20 seconds on with some units.

Regarding poorly positioned guards panels I tend to agree - ish. For example when working from the cab I can easily reach my hand round and release the doors when standing on the platform. A lot of guards can't reach so have to step back up, turn around, then release the doors. For a large station where ASDO override is required, it's pretty much non optional to step back in the cab to release the doors due to the awkward angle you'd need your hands at to press release and flick the toggle override at the same time.

I echo the comments about 197 saloon door controls not being opposite each other. Many times I have arrived at Warrington Bank Quay at the door panel for the regular platform 1 or 4, only to find we are coming in on 2 or 3 and then have to force my way down the carriage through the mass of people trying to get off to get to the correct door panel. On a 150 for example you would just turn around and go to the door opposite you.

A lot of it seems to depend on who your manager is and what depot you're based at as to how guards perform the safety check. Some managers are happy for you to stay stood on the step and pop your head out after opening the local door for the safety check - providing you can clearly see the full length (for a curved platform you would still be expected to step down fully and make sure you can fully see the train).

Other managers expect a step down safety check at every station even if visible without stepping down.

 

[trainophile]

That's simply not true.


Before they close, absolutely. It's part of the TRTS procedure


That will be related to SDO operation at that station. Should be quicker IN December when it's back to 4 car services

What? I've looked at December to see whether they are going back to 2TPH (BHM-LIV) but it still appears to be just the one. When they put a 4-car on, regardless of time or day, it's pretty much always packed to the point of uncomfortably full. Can't believe they're reducing capacity on this extremely popular and well used route? Please tell me I've misunderstood.

Edit: My apologies, I've just realised that this thread is about TfW. Did we go off topic to other operators or is it just me? Sorry, delete my posts if necessary.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I've checked, there is a three pin socket inside.

awesome, thanks for checking. I wonder if there would enough space even for something like a microwave. seems as we're stuck with them, would be nice to see an attempt to make the most of them.

I work them on the Bidston-Wrexham line

I've heard in the mess room that they want guards on the 230's to open from passenger doors as the crew door is horrificly slow to open on them ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've heard in the mess room that they want guards on the 230's to open from passenger doors as the crew door is horrificly slow to open on them ?

Unless TfW's are different, it's the passenger doors that were slow, as such LNR guards always worked them from the cabs and didn't do tickets.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Off topic but i fear the Welsh language announcements are wasted north of Shrewsbury !!

 

[L401CJF]

I've heard in the mess room that they want guards on the 230's to open from passenger doors as the crew door is horrificly slow to open on them ?

Correct, supposed to be operating doors from the saloon only where possible as the cab door takes far too long to open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct, supposed to be operating doors from the saloon only where possible as the cab door takes far too long to open.

Guess Vivarail wouldn't get their ISO 9001 for consistency then!

Off topic but i fear the Welsh language announcements are wasted north of Shrewsbury !!

I wish they'd copy the Swiss - English first in England, Welsh first in Wales, and different jingles for each.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

What? I've looked at December to see whether they are going back to 2TPH (BHM-LIV) but it still appears to be just the one. When they put a 4-car on, regardless of time or day, it's pretty much always packed to the point of uncomfortably full. Can't believe they're reducing capacity on this extremely popular and well used route? Please tell me I've misunderstood.

Edit: My apologies, I've just realised that this thread is about TfW. Did we go off topic to other operators or is it just me? Sorry, delete my posts if necessary.

Just to clarify, most hours will see the return of 2tph Liv-Bhm so shouldn't lose too much capacity. Not sure why it's not showing in timetables yet. I believe there's a thread open already to discuss further.

 

[TurboMan]

In practice the risk is minimal. There aren't many cases where complex stations have short platforms; Helsby would be one, but as TfW never use the Ellesmere Port platforms the software considers Helsby to be a two platform station. Platform 10 at Crewe is only 3 carriages long but drivers are supposed to refuse the route if sent there with a four car train. On the one occasion to my knowledge where they've taken it, the train did fit within the signal even though one coach was off of the platform, the guard used ASDO to release the correct doors. At other sub-6 car platforms at complex stations (e.g. Llandudno Junction P2, Chester P2/3B/5/6) the signal is right on the end of the platform so if the driver accepted the route with an overlength train you've got bigger problems than which doors to open.

The funny signalling around Manchester Oxford Road does occasionally mean that you are stopped with coaches off of the platform but I would actually consider ASDO to be more of a risk here than overriding by default. For example you have a four-car train and are sent into platform 1, but the starter is red so you can't go all of the way down. Even if you tell ASDO which platform you're in the system doesn't know that you are stopped in the right place (you need trackside balises for that). If the system was set up at MCO the temptation to go "trust ASDO" and just press the two buttons would be too great. Safer to require overriding by default there.

Otherwise the only thing that ASDO would protect against at complex stations is which side the doors should be opening. Frankly if a guard is stupid enough to open doors on the completely wrong side of the train, they shouldn't be in the job. It's an easier mistake for a driver to make with both sets of controls right in front of them.

You can't really claim there is minimal risk, then go on to outline a whole load of risks associated with operation of the system as it is.

It sounds very much like the implementation of other ASDO systems, where the functionality is only fully automatic (including CSDE) if the introduction includes the installation of balises where necessary. But that cost tends to get overlooked at the planning stage, so that when the new stock is introduced into traffic, the risks associated with manually operating what should be an automatic system are passed on to traincrew.

There's a very good reason why the relevant standard (RIS-2747-RST) states that 'It is not recommended that manual SDO systems are used, as these have a higher risk factor due to relying solely on human actions and judgement' and that manual override is provided as 'a method of responding to a failure of the SDO system'. It shouldn't be used as a primary means of operating the system, unless you're prepared to accept that errors will be made by the human being pressing the buttons.

Disappointing to see the language you use to describe a guard making a mistake. If you think stupidity is the only cause of error, the RSSB have some good materials on human factors you should probably look into.

 

[Bartsimho]

Just a question related to door opening. I saw someone railing against DOO on another platform stating that it was less safe than Guards opening the Doors, I can't fully see how this is the case when the busiest train network (The Underground) has the driver controlling the doors and minimal accidents involving it. I can see that it's another task for the driver but can't really see the safety issue (the actual nature of the safety issue wasn't expanded on beyond saying there is one).

 

[Towers]

Disappointing to see the language you use to describe a guard making a mistake. If you think stupidity is the only cause of error, the RSSB have some good materials on human factors you should probably look into.

To play devil’s advocate, there is some merit in Krokodil’s comment regarding wrong side door release, in that any guard following the correct, mandatory local door procedure really has no excuse to be performing a full wrong side release on arriving at a station. That being said, ‘stupid’ probably isn’t the ideal terminology!

Just a question related to door opening. I saw someone railing against DOO on another platform stating that it was less safe than Guards opening the Doors, I can't fully see how this is the case when the busiest train network (The Underground) has the driver controlling the doors and minimal accidents involving it. I can see that it's another task for the driver but can't really see the safety issue (the actual nature of the safety issue wasn't expanded on beyond saying there is one).

The arguments (briefly, to avoid thread creep), might be increased risk of incorrect release (a driver stopping incorrectly has only a momentary opportunity to realise their mistake before they hit the door release buttons), and that monitoring the platform may be safer if undertaken from a member of staff positioned on the platform itself rather than via DOO equipment. Best leave that one there, it’s a frequently rehashed discussion!

 

[TUC]

A good guard who controls door release would still be mindful of people potentially pressing up to and falling inbetween the train and the platform, or 'blocking' a door that will open and spill out people from a full and standing train.

People using the Tube seem to manage this successfully without needing a Guard to help them.

 

[Krokodil]

Off topic but i fear the Welsh language announcements are wasted north of Shrewsbury !!

My great aunt was first language Welsh and she lived in Wrexham.

You can't really claim there is minimal risk, then go on to outline a whole load of risks associated with operation of the system as it is.

Yes I can. I have gone as far as to describe a situation where I would say that the rather crude ASDO system in use could lull one into a false sense of security. It's a particular risk at Oxford Road where the signalling may force the driver into stopping short. I've also pointed out that other than platform 10 at Crewe you've got bigger problems if your 197 is overlength at a complex station.

Disappointing to see the language you use to describe a guard making a mistake. If you think stupidity is the only cause of error, the RSSB have some good materials on human factors you should probably look into.

You'd have to cut an incredible number of corners to end up in the position where you're pressing the Door Release buttons with no platform at all beside the train. Whether that is down to stupidity or being recklessly lazy is irrelevant, the fact remains that someone doing that is not cut out for the job.

 

[Towers]

People using the Tube seem to manage this successfully without needing a Guard to help them.

The Underground is a very different beast to mainline rail.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The Underground is a very different beast to mainline rail.

yup it has rammed narrow platforms with rammed trains that come into the station at speed and manage to deliver sub 30s dwell times

 

[trainJam]

Just a question related to door opening. I saw someone railing against DOO on another platform stating that it was less safe than Guards opening the Doors, I can't fully see how this is the case when the busiest train network (The Underground) has the driver controlling the doors and minimal accidents involving it. I can see that it's another task for the driver but can't really see the safety issue (the actual nature of the safety issue wasn't expanded on beyond saying there is one).

I believe the London Underground has a Correct Side Door Enable solution. On the older system, it is even possible to see doors being released before the train comes to a "complete stop". Interestingly, this is possible on the Victoria line as well, despite it being a modern system. However, on the TBTC/CBTC lines (Jubilee, Northern, SSR) there can be a significant delay in comparison.

I find it interesting that it is acceptable to stand past the yellow line (which itself is closer) and have the train rapidly accelerate away on the tube, whereas on the mainline, you better be well away, unless you enjoy being screamed at.

In terms of 'speed' (but not top speed), the tube is superior.

 

[frodshamfella]

LNWR are very slow too opening doors.

 

[bahnause]

Are there vehicles, in which the driver can preselect the door release during entering the platform and the doors are then automatically released when the train comes to a standstill?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

LNWR are very slow too opening doors.

Any stations in particular? 350s have a delay in releasing which doesn't help.

 

[RailWonderer]

I wish they'd copy the Swiss - English first in England, Welsh first in Wales, and different jingles for each.

The vast majority of Welsh don't speak Welsh.

People using the Tube seem to manage this successfully without needing a Guard to help them.

Look at automated railways the world over - we don't need drivers either

Without opening a can of worms, the long and short is that infrastructure on UK railways is Victorian and there are many curved platforms and different platform lengths with different train formations run through the day that a guard will need to be aware of and release/lock. Whereas the tube is mostly consistent (besides the front or rear doors not opening at some stations).

Then you have revenue collection and catering. The tube is all barriered but on the mainline, guards are needed where fare evasion is rife to and from unbarriered stations and on longer journeys where a catering trolley is needed. If I'm right, the TfW Manchester - Cardiff has a guard operated trolley as does the TPE longer distance services too and XC's Cambridge - Brum regionals so many non-IC services with catering. I am not a railway worker but based on my experiences on the railways a guard is very useful to have on a wide range of services.

 

[Towers]

Are there vehicles, in which the driver can preselect the door release during entering the platform and the doors are then automatically released when the train comes to a standstill?

Not really; in general if the driver is involved then the door release will be manual, albeit perhaps with various safety systems to help avoid incorrect release incidents. It’s frowned upon for drivers to be involved in other tasks while the train is still moving, so a system involving fiddling with door selection on approach to a station is unlikely to be approved. Approaching & entering a platform especially is quite a high risk part of a journey, and setting up the doors has a risk of causing a loss of concentration on the driving task at a crucial moment. There’s also the possibility for various different release patterns for different platforms at the same location, which in many cases wouldn’t be communicated to the driver until the last signal before pulling into the station, and relying on the driver inputting that data accurately - again, whilst also bringing the train safely into said platform - is also an obvious risk point.

There was a broadly similar aim for the SWR 701 units which are heavily delayed entering service, although I believe in that case there is platform equipment which allows the train to automatically bring itself to a stand and release doors with no driver intervention required (happy to be corrected though!)

 

[GWVillager]

If I'm right, the TfW Manchester - Cardiff has a guard operated trolley as does the TPE longer distance services too and XC's Cambridge - Brum regionals so many non-IC services with catering. I am not a railway worker but based on my experiences on the railways a guard is very useful to have on a wide range of services.

TfW and XC’s trains definitely do not have guard-operated trolleys, they’re manned by separate staff. I’ve not been on TPE for some time, but I can say with some confidence that they do not either.

I do agree with your overall point, though. The guard has to fulfil many duties besides doors on most services, particularly more rural ones.

 

[bahnause]

Not really; in general if the driver is involved then the door release will be manual, albeit perhaps with various safety systems to help avoid incorrect release incidents. It’s frowned upon for drivers to be involved in other tasks while the train is still moving, so a system involving fiddling with door selection on approach to a station is unlikely to be approved. Approaching & entering a platform especially is quite a high risk part of a journey, and setting up the doors has a risk of causing a loss of concentration on the driving task at a crucial moment. There’s also the possibility for various different release patterns for different platforms at the same location, which in many cases wouldn’t be communicated to the driver until the last signal before pulling into the station, and relying on the driver inputting that data accurately - again, whilst also bringing the train safely into said platform - is also an obvious risk point.

Would it be technically possible or was the feature never implemented due to safety concerns? By default we release the doors before the train comes to a standstill as soon as we are sure, the whole train will come to a standstill at the platform. Depending on the rolling stock used, this is possible from 60km/h or 40-45km/h. In some cases the doors open shortly before the vehicle comes to a standstill or the step partially extends.

 

[Krokodil]

The vast majority of Welsh don't speak Welsh.

Given its prevalence as a second language I'd bet that more people in Switzerland are fluent in English than in German. English is commonly used as a lingua franca when French and German-speaking Swiss people meet. They still announce in the local language first, and so they should.

 

[800301]

Would it be technically possible or was the feature never implemented due to safety concerns? By default we release the doors before the train comes to a standstill as soon as we are sure, the whole train will come to a standstill at the platform. Depending on the rolling stock used, this is possible from 60km/h or 40-45km/h. In some cases the doors open shortly before the vehicle comes to a standstill or the step partially extends.

It would be possible with the right software but would be a massive distraction faffing about with the TMS and what doors to open while coming into a platform, we have it come up on the TMS on the 800’s occasionally as it can’t work out where it is but I won’t touch it until I’m stopped and in most places now it auto corrects to the correct platform after it picks up the Balise information where fitted, there have been a few cases of drivers selecting the wrong platform by accident and not noticing until the wrong amount of doors open

 

[frodshamfella]

Any stations in particular? 350s have a delay in releasing which doesn't help.

I just find it in general quite slow

 

[work-traveller]

Last year I was an a lesser WCML station, awaiting a slow evening train. An Avanti WC service arrived first, but had trouble getting a door step to retrack before departing. The conductor had a couple of goes at releasing and then retracking the doors, but the offending step wouldn't retrack. She then got on her phone to Avanti engineering and wondered a little way down the platform whilst in conversation with the engineer. At this point, the only other passenger on that part of the platform, a self declared director of another TOC, booted the offending step, at which point the mechanism engaged at the step fully retracked. He said he knew that was likely to work, but said nothing to the conductor before/after. The conductor came back, looked surprised at the turn of events, cancelled the engineering call-out and the train departed.

 

[ar10642]

This. Safety has to come first.

I think some of you would have to go and have a lie down if you saw how Thameslink operates its 12 car trains in the peaks

 

[Krokodil]

I think some of you would have to go and have a lie down if you saw how Thameslink operates its 12 car trains in the peaks

The ones that trap and drag small dogs?

 

[bahnause]

The ones that trap and drag small dogs?

I hope not at door release?