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Why do peak Victoria to Gillingham trains call at Crofton Park & Bellingham and not Catford

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NorthKent1989

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Always puzzled me this, what was the rational behind this?

Is it a load spreading tactic or just because there is more demand at those stations than at Catford which does have Catford Bridge next to it.
 
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PGAT

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Catford is the busiest station on the line so this has puzzled me for a while as well. If I were to guess, the nearby Catford Bridge station is assumed to take the weight of those passengers so that Crofton Park and Bellingham can be served without causing too much of a detriment on journey times
 

NorthKent1989

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Catford is the busiest station on the line so this has puzzled me for a while as well. If I were to guess, the nearby Catford Bridge station is assumed to take the weight of those passengers so that Crofton Park and Bellingham can be served without causing too much of a detriment on journey times

This is my thinking as well.

But also those Hayes trains can get very busy in the peaks so I would have thought that Southeastern may want the Gillinghams to call at Catford to ease the load of CB and the so that the inner stations of the Hayes line aren’t being left behind.
 

PGAT

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I agree, and as far as I’m aware, the Gillingham services are relatively lightly loaded, especially when there’s 2tph so adding a Catford stop wouldn’t overload everything. Although I don’t think any TOC could be convinced to add such a stop for the time penalty
 

30907

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50 years ago it would have been a curious choice - the standard for a Holborn semi-fast was Catford and Peckham Rye, with Bellingham a later addition.substitution for Peckham.
Looking at the morning services, Crofton Park may be a good place for people to change off Thameslink for Victoria, or it may just be that demand there has increased. Bellingham was always a busy station anyway.

Another possibility is that SE doesn't want to encourage people to change at Catford from Mid-Kent to Victoria - the platforms aren't exactly wide either.
I agree, and as far as I’m aware, the Gillingham services are relatively lightly loaded, especially when there’s 2tph so adding a Catford stop wouldn’t overload everything. Although I don’t think any TOC could be convinced to add such a stop for the time penalty
There's loads of pathing on the morning trains but none in the evening, so an extra stop wouldn't work.
 
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SE%Traveller

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To be honest they might as well, they'll have caught up with Stopper from Sevenoaks by then.... a generous 20 mins is allowed from Bromley South to Denmark Hill.

On the the return it's 12/13mins
 

Timmyd

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I believe it was because at the time the stops were added to morning trains, there was only a train every 30 mins along the Thameslink route (notwithstanding the regular cancellations) and certainly at Crofton Park, there were difficulties boarding the trains. I think the situation is better now given more WFH and the additional Welwyn Thameslink trains (when they run) but the stops have continues. Catford has also had the option of SE from Bridge as others have said.
 

NorthKent1989

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50 years ago it would have been a curious choice - the standard for a Holborn semi-fast was Catford and Peckham Rye, with Bellingham a later addition.
Looking at the morning services,

Was this a Gillingham service too?

Amazing how Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye have basically swapped roles now
 

brad465

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I agree, and as far as I’m aware, the Gillingham services are relatively lightly loaded, especially when there’s 2tph so adding a Catford stop wouldn’t overload everything. Although I don’t think any TOC could be convinced to add such a stop for the time penalty
I suspect it's lightly loaded between Bromley South and Victoria, as anyone who has used that service to get to Bromley changes there for a non-stop service that will get to Victoria sooner.
 

30907

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Was this a Gillingham service too?

Amazing how Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye have basically swapped roles now
Mostly the Sevenoaks fasts which were supllemented by Shortlands stoppers.

But there was certainly a Gillingham or Maidstone that called at Shortlands 0831 then Catford etc and carried 1st class. My parents knew the (only) holder of a 1st class Shortlands-Holborn season in the 60s....
 

nw1

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Whatever the stops are, it sounds like a change from the classic patterns from the 80s and 90s, which I was more familiar with, when pretty much everything outer-suburban on the Chatham lines in the peak was non-stop from Victoria (or Elephant and Castle, if coming from Blackfriars/HV) to Bromley South.
 

PGAT

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I suspect it's lightly loaded between Bromley South and Victoria, as anyone who has used that service to get to Bromley changes there for a non-stop service that will get to Victoria sooner.
Also from the Medway to Bromley/London as there are faster non-stop services from Rochester. It’s only real purpose is to connect Denmark Hill and provide a service for the smaller stations on the Chatham Mainline
 

30907

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Whatever the stops are, it sounds like a change from the classic patterns from the 80s and 90s, which I was more familiar with, when pretty much everything outer-suburban on the Chatham lines in the peak was non-stop from Victoria (or Elephant and Castle, if coming from Blackfriars/HV) to Bromley South.
Quite.

Incidentally, Peckham Rye got dropped after the mid-70s changes.

Slightly OT but related - the pre-Covid timetable had a similar pattern on the Chatham Main Line, with Kent House etc each gaining a non-stop to Victoria and losing a stopper. Presumably to relieve loadings.
 

cle

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Moderator note: Split from
Beckenham Junction used to also get semi-fast calls, and even before Tramlink interestingly.

Denmark Hill (and Peckham) of course have Overground now. Peckham is a less easy interchange, although it also has the LB-Southern services, for instance if one needed Streatham. But Denmark Hill has the hospitals complex - many visitors, patients and employees. Both areas have of course also gentrified and have restaurants, bars etc worth visiting too.

London in general has grown in terms of these inner/zone 2 nodes which offer dispersal, alternative Central London routes and orbital connections. More things than ever serve Stratford, Lewisham, New Cross Gate (although TL was dropped), Highbury, Finsbury Park - and definitely West Hampstead TL has way more fast calls.... these are key places for housebuilding too.

So I'd expect eventually that most services *should* call at a zone 2/3 place as well as a terminus.
 

NorthKent1989

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Mostly the Sevenoaks fasts which were supllemented by Shortlands stoppers.

But there was certainly a Gillingham or Maidstone that called at Shortlands 0831 then Catford etc and carried 1st class. My parents knew the (only) holder of a 1st class Shortlands-Holborn season in the 60s....

The stopping pattern would have been
Holborn-Blackfriars-E&C-Peckham-Catford-Bellingham-Bromley South then all stations to Sevenoaks right?
 

leytongabriel

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Beckenham Junction used to also get semi-fast calls, and even before Tramlink interestingly.

Denmark Hill (and Peckham) of course have Overground now. Peckham is a less easy interchange, although it also has the LB-Southern services, for instance if one needed Streatham. But Denmark Hill has the hospitals complex - many visitors, patients and employees. Both areas have of course also gentrified and have restaurants, bars etc worth visiting too.

London in general has grown in terms of these inner/zone 2 nodes which offer dispersal, alternative Central London routes and orbital connections. More things than ever serve Stratford, Lewisham, New Cross Gate (although TL was dropped), Highbury, Finsbury Park - and definitely West Hampstead TL has way more fast calls.... these are key places for housebuilding too. So I'd expect eventually that most services *should* call at a zone 2/3 place as well as a terminus.
Yes - I was thinking how Ealing Broadway has kinda got left out of this development.
 

NorthKent1989

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Beckenham Junction used to also get semi-fast calls, and even before Tramlink interestingly.

Denmark Hill (and Peckham) of course have Overground now. Peckham is a less easy interchange, although it also has the LB-Southern services, for instance if one needed Streatham. But Denmark Hill has the hospitals complex - many visitors, patients and employees. Both areas have of course also gentrified and have restaurants, bars etc worth visiting too.

London in general has grown in terms of these inner/zone 2 nodes which offer dispersal, alternative Central London routes and orbital connections. More things than ever serve Stratford, Lewisham, New Cross Gate (although TL was dropped), Highbury, Finsbury Park - and definitely West Hampstead TL has way more fast calls.... these are key places for housebuilding too. So I'd expect eventually that most services *should* call at a zone 2/3 place as well as a terminus.

You could apply this to both Woolwich stations, a major Station complex across two stations just 500 meters apart, this is a similar situation to the West Hampstead stations

Woolwich has South Eastern, Thameslink, DLR and Elizabeth line
 

30907

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The stopping pattern would have been
Holborn-Blackfriars-E&C-Peckham-Catford-Bellingham-Bromley South then all stations to Sevenoaks right?
Depending on the year, either Peckham or Bellingham but not, I think, both. Plus Shortlands, because in those days P4 had the turnback facility which is now at Bromley South P2.
 

cle

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Oh for sure, Ealing Broadway is another outer hub, Wimbledon and Richmond too - although Old Oak Common is going to actually take on the fasts that Ealing never really did.

But it did used to have the Bedwyns and so forth.

Woolwich - I guess so! It’s a little more spread between stations, and isn’t on a faster line but always had those historical Gillingham calls I suppose.
 

nw1

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Yes - I was thinking how Ealing Broadway has kinda got left out of this development.

I suppose the problem is that it would be difficult to stop inter-city services on the fast lines at these sorts of Zone 2/3 places without jamming up the line. Same would apply to somewhere like Willesden Junction on the WCML, of course. Or Harrow and Wealdstone, though that is further out - more like Bromley or Surbiton, I guess.

Ealing Broadway actually has a long history, though, of the outer-suburban DMUs to Oxford calling there - they (and their EMU successors) did so from at least the mid-60s until the last timetable change. So, ironically for the point under discussion, now is the first time that Ealing Broadway has not had direct services to beyond Reading.

In early Turbo days, even the Bedwyns called there - so the 90s was presumably when the station enjoyed its peak longer-distance connectivity. And in 1982 it even had the honour of the first northbound XC service (to Manchester) originating there.

Pathing is, of course, the problem - when the relief lines were open to Great Western DMUs, it was much easier to stop many services there.

By contrast, Clapham Junction is also geographically equivalent but that has been a stop on longer-distance services since the mid-80s (though obviously it's much more important than most of the other examples, being a major junction).
 
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30907

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Yes - I was thinking how Ealing Broadway has kinda got left out of this development.
Denmark Hill is unusual, being a significant enough destination to warrant an additional access footbridge, and is only served by about 1/3 of the Chatham main line services.
Ealing has lost its outer-suburbans because of the EL.
 

AndrewE

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I wondered whether Catford might be closer to a critical or congested junction, and the longer time to path an accelerating or decelerating train would drastically cut the capacity of the junction?
edit... I have dug out my paper map book, having failed to find anything useful online, and it seems unlikely, Just 1 simple junction a fair distance away.
 
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NorthKent1989

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If Catford station had more trains calling there then this and Catford Bridge would join the ranks of West Hampstead and Woolwich hub stations
 

bicbasher

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Considering the distance between Catford/Bridge to Lewisham, the locals are more likely to bus it into Lewisham where there's a considerably more frequent service into London, plus the DLR. Southeastern also have a regular 2tph service into Victoria.

If ever the Bakerloo was extended to Hayes, Catford Bridge would become an even more busier station, but with more frequent services, which would take the pressure of local bus services along the Lewisham/Catford corridor.
 

PGAT

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One extra train per hour is not enough to bring Catford to such sought-after “West Hampstead” or “Woolwich” status, but it could be a good start if some effort is put in. There could be better integration between the two catford stations, allowing travel from Bromley to Lewisham or the city without having to employ the infamous Bromley North branch. Catford could locally be advertised for having “fast” trains into London and the Medway.
 

30907

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One extra train per hour is not enough to bring Catford to such sought-after “West Hampstead” or “Woolwich” status, but it could be a good start if some effort is put in. There could be better integration between the two catford stations, allowing travel from Bromley to Lewisham or the city without having to employ the infamous Bromley North branch. Catford could locally be advertised for having “fast” trains into London and the Medway.
Longfield to Lewisham is hardly a major market though (Medway Towns to Lewisham is already catered for!), nor Catford to Medway Towns.
 

nw1

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(Medway Towns to Lewisham is already catered for!),
Via a very slow, IIRC all-stations service though. The old Charing Cross-Gillingham semi-fast was better in this respect
 
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