Why Don't LNER Run A Scarborough To London Kings Cross Service?

[Jonathan1990]

From my knowledge every other place in England which has a railway line that branches off LNER's main routes to Leeds and Scotland has 1 service first things in the morning to London Kings Cross. Lincoln has one, Bradford Foster Square has one, Skipton has one, Harrogate has one, besides having their own trains to London Kings Cross Hull has one and now even Sunderland and Middlesborough have one. There has never been one from Scarborough to London Kings Cross though. A few years ago it was on the Scarborough station Wikipedia page that Grand Central had plans to run a Scarborough to London Kings Cross service.

 

[JonathanH]

GNER ran Glasgow to Scarborough at one point on summer Saturdays but it is a fair observation that there hasn't been a London service in the manner of Harrogate, Bradford, Hull and Skipton.

Intercity Holidaymaker

Summer 1993. Intercity Holidaymaker service 12:15 Scarborough to Glasgow Central awaits departure time. Powercar 43115 is furthest from the camera, with the leading powercar unrecorded. Scanned from my own print.

www.flickr.com

The issue with Scarborough is getting a train there to start the service early morning from the depot and whether there would be enough demand at that time of day. The population of Scarborough is somewhat less than the other places with London extensions and more critically there are likely to be more limited numbers of people who, pre March 2020, commute daily from there to the sort of jobs that entail business travel to London.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sunderland to Kings Cross via Newcastle is finishing as per the recent consultation isnt it? Not used enough?

The odd thing is though, the ECS for the early Middlesbrough service passes through Sunderland a few minutes before the ECS for the Sunderland. Why not run south from Sunderland in service via Middlesbrough?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

From my knowledge every other place in England which has a railway line that branches off LNER's main routes to Leeds and Scotland has 1 service first things in the morning to London Kings Cross.

Skegness and Bishop Auckland both branch off the ECML and don’t either.

 

[JonathanH]

Why not run south from Sunderland in service via Middlesbrough?

I'd imagine it would be felt to be too slow and it restricts options to run the ECS via Durham when necessary.

 

[IanXC]

Scarborough was an option in the last ICEC franchise specification, but Virgin Trains/Stagecoach didn't include it in their bid and as LNER are broadly following their plans it still doesn't feature.

Now that EMR have seemingly given up their Summer Weekends service arguably it's a decision which warrants revisiting, although for a leisure orientated service rather than a commuter one.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Now that EMR have seemingly given up their Summer Weekends service arguably it's a decision which warrants revisiting, although for a leisure orientated service rather than a commuter one.

I'd struggle to see much of a case. The leisure demand for travel from London to Scarborough won't be huge - there are far closer seaside towns for Londoners and much of the North York Moors (where some of the leisure demand would be going) is just as easily reached via York or Middlesbrough. Scarborough is really more of a regional destination (which isn't to belittle it - lots of people definitely want to go there, but mainly from the North East or Yorkshire). Realistically the only LNER stations with significant flows to Scarborough would be York, Doncaster, and maybe Retford/Newark/Grantham (though from there Skegness is just as likely to be a draw). The former two both already have direct Scarborough services (albeit Doncaster's is slow), while the latter three aren't exactly huge.

On paper, EMR's service was better than any LNER service could ever be. Sheffield is bigger than Doncaster (in both cases competing with the slow Northern service); Leicester, Chesterfield, and Derby are bigger than Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, and Retford (for new direct links); and it had the potential to also pick up direct customers from Leicester or points south to York who otherwise have to change (whereas an LNER service along the East Coast doesn't introduce new links). I'm open to hearing a compelling argument as to why LNER would do better than EMR but until that point I just can't see this hypothetical service working well.

 

[IanXC]

I'd struggle to see much of a case. The leisure demand for travel from London to Scarborough won't be huge - there are far closer seaside towns for Londoners and much of the North York Moors (where some of the leisure demand would be going) is just as easily reached via York or Middlesbrough. Scarborough is really more of a regional destination (which isn't to belittle it - lots of people definitely want to go there, but mainly from the North East or Yorkshire). Realistically the only LNER stations with significant flows to Scarborough would be York, Doncaster, and maybe Retford/Newark/Grantham (though from there Skegness is just as likely to be a draw). The former two both already have direct Scarborough services (albeit Doncaster's is slow), while the latter three aren't exactly huge.

On paper, EMR's service was better than any LNER service could ever be. Sheffield is bigger than Doncaster (in both cases competing with the slow Northern service); Leicester, Chesterfield, and Derby are bigger than Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, and Retford (for new direct links); and it had the potential to also pick up direct customers from Leicester or points south to York who otherwise have to change (whereas an LNER service along the East Coast doesn't introduce new links). I'm open to hearing a compelling argument as to why LNER would do better than EMR but until that point I just can't see this hypothetical service working well.

I didn't necessarily mean that there was a compelling case for it, simply that the facts as they were when VTEC decided against have changed, and thus now would be a sensible time to look at the decision again.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Sunderland to Kings Cross via Newcastle is finishing as per the recent consultation isnt it? Not used enough?

The odd thing is though, the ECS for the early Middlesbrough service passes through Sunderland a few minutes before the ECS for the Sunderland. Why not run south from Sunderland in service via Middlesbrough?

As it stands at the moment, the 0708 LNER Middlesbrough -Kings Cross (1Y80) arrives at Kings Cross at 1022. The 0643 Grand Central Sunderland -Kings Cross (1A60) arrives at Kings Cross at 1014, yet 1Y80 is in front of 1A60 at both Eaglescliffe (15 mins) and York (9 Mins).
You have the strange situation, that despite living near to Thornaby Station, journey planners suggest I travel Eaglescliffe and catch the 0733 Grand Central service rather than the Thornaby 0713 LNER service. Sunderland would probably be in a similar position, a service from Sunderland would require call at around at around 0615 if going via Middlesbrough.

 

[billio]

Surely the sensible solution is to make sure that the service from Scarborough to York and back is a reliable, fast and frequent service. Passengers can transfer to whatever destination they like at York which has good services to almost every place in the UK except south of London.

 

[30907]

The last regular through service from KGX was the Scarborough Flyer, withdrawn in 1963, which ran summer FSO northbound, SsuO southbound.
Suggests there wasn't a huge market even then.

 

[route101]

GNER ran Glasgow to Scarborough at one point on summer Saturdays but it is a fair observation that there hasn't been a London service in the manner of Harrogate, Bradford, Hull and Skipton.

Intercity Holidaymaker

Summer 1993. Intercity Holidaymaker service 12:15 Scarborough to Glasgow Central awaits departure time. Powercar 43115 is furthest from the camera, with the leading powercar unrecorded. Scanned from my own print.

www.flickr.com

The issue with Scarborough is getting a train there to start the service early morning from the depot and whether there would be enough demand at that time of day. The population of Scarborough is somewhat less than the other places with London extensions and more critically there are likely to be more limited numbers of people who, pre March 2020, commute daily from there to the sort of jobs that entail business travel to London.

Don't recall GNER, was it Intercity?

I recall in one of my old timetables the this service went to Glasgow Queen St for a short while.

 

[cle]

Does Scarborough have much demand London-bound?

I’ve literally never met anyone in London who has been or even mentioned it. Totally different orbit.

 

[D365]

I'd struggle to see much of a case. The leisure demand for travel from London to Scarborough won't be huge - there are far closer seaside towns for Londoners and much of the North York Moors (where some of the leisure demand would be going) is just as easily reached via York or Middlesbrough.

Bingo.

 

[Killingworth]

The last regular through service from KGX was the Scarborough Flyer, withdrawn in 1963, which ran summer FSO northbound, SsuO southbound.
Suggests there wasn't a huge market even then.

Back then we had such direct services to all sorts of places, like regular boat trains from Kings Cross to Tyne Commision Quay for Norway, .

Good connections from reliable and frequent services to York are key for Scarborough today. That seems to have been difficult enough to achieve in recent times.

 

[Philip]

I think any new service to/from London along the ECML or MML should be prioritized for Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

 

[class26]

I think any new service to/from London along the ECML or MML should be prioritized for Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

But these will be extensions of the already exiting Lincoln services

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does Scarborough have much demand London-bound?

I’ve literally never met anyone in London who has been or even mentioned it. Totally different orbit.

To be honest if you were trying to build a case for a service, looking at the southwards demand TO London would be a better option than northwards demand TO Scarborough from London.

Scarborough hasn't suffered quite the level of decline that some of the Lancastrian resorts have, and still seems to be a fairly prosperous area. Malton is also fairly posh, so there's possibly enough demand to justify starting a morning York semi-fast from Scarborough, and extending one there in the evening. One complication might be capacity at York for a through service with not all platforms accessible to/from the Scarborough line.

 

[CW2]

I would think that there would be a relatively small market for a peak am service Scarborough - Kings Cross / peak pm Kings Cross - Scarborough, and (as noted by others above) some difficulty in resourcing it.
A better "toe in the water" type service might be to run off peak Kings Cross - Scarborough and return, catering primarily for holidaymakers, the retired, etc. By running it out-and-back from Kings Cross, and doing so off-peak, it should be much easier to resource. That way you might get a reasonable idea of the potential traffic loadings. Even so, it would be a pretty big investment in route learning time etc.

 

[JonathanH]

A better "toe in the water" type service might be to run off peak Kings Cross - Scarborough and return, catering primarily for holidaymakers, the retired, etc. By running it out-and-back from Kings Cross, and doing so off-peak, it should be much easier to resource. That way you might get a reasonable idea of the potential traffic loadings. Even so, it would be a pretty big investment in route learning time etc.

Trouble is that if a York stopper were extended to Scarborough there is nothing at York to work the return service back so a gap in that timetable results.

There is a good reason why neither Hull Trains nor Grand Central didn't chose Scarborough for their ventures.

It might be possible to alternate Middlesbrough and Scarborough for two hourly extensions of the York stopper but Northallerton and Teesside are likely to be more lucrative than Malton and Scarborough. Every four hours to each becomes the sort of frequency that isn't very useful.

 

[Darandio]

So this is basically a case of Scarborough needs a direct service simply because there are direct services to other offshoots of the ECML?

York itself has fantastic regular connections to many parts of the country. During recent disruption it's been argued many times on here that a Scarborough-York shuttle has provided the most reliable service seen on the branch in years, possibly ever. If that truly is the case then surely having a dedicated shuttle with good connections is the best way forward.

 

[scarby]

The last regular through service from KGX was the Scarborough Flyer, withdrawn in 1963, which ran summer FSO northbound, SsuO southbound.
Suggests there wasn't a huge market even then.

Wasn't there a direct service on summer Saturdays, sometime around the late 1970s/early 1980s? My memory of this is hazy, but I could swear I remember that a "King's Cross" arrival used to show up at around 16.00 or thereabouts?

There also at some point around the same period seems to have been an 08.45 ex Bridlington that went via Scarborough to KGX?

 

[philjo]

Wasn't there a direct service on summer Saturdays, sometime around the late 1970s/early 1980s? My memory of this is hazy, but I could swear I remember that a "King's Cross" arrival used to show up at around 16.00 or thereabouts?

There also at some point around the same period seems to have been an 08.45 ex Bridlington that went via Scarborough to KGX?

Yes, I remember travelling on the direct service from Stevenage to Scarborough with my grandparents - it would have been a Saturday in August either 1982 or 1984. I recall there was an issue with the loco so we were about 45 minutes late into Scarborough. It avoided the need to change platforms at York with luggage and my brother’s pushchair. I think we were also in a 6 seat compartment.

I think the southbound service timing wasn’t as useful - we were self catering so had to clean the flat by 11am. We changed at York coming back and onto a service to Stevenage that started at York, hauled by a Deltic.
I think the through Scarborough service was withdrawn after the following summer season.

 

[Harvester]

Wasn't there a direct service on summer Saturdays, sometime around the late 1970s/early 1980s? My memory of this is hazy, but I could swear I remember that a "King's Cross" arrival used to show up at around 16.00 or thereabouts?

Yes it was definitely running in the summer of 1981. It left Scarborough around mid-morning and I saw it at Grantham one Saturday that summer, hauled by a Deltic.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Couldn't one or 2 of the York terminators be extended to Scarborough? That would free up a 185 or 68. But presumably it would mean 10 coaches to and from York and London but running as 5 coaches to and from York and Scarborough presumably?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Couldn't one or 2 of the York terminators be extended to Scarborough?

No doubt they could be. Not sure though if there is sufficient pent-up demand to make it all worthwhile. Surely interchanging at York for a York -> Scarborough shuttle is a more sensible use of railway resources.

 

[30907]

Couldn't one or 2 of the York terminators be extended to Scarborough?

You would have to find an extra 5-car set, and attach/detach in a curved platform....

 

[Metroman62]

According to a journey planner and real-time trains, LNER run a bus from York to Whitby. There is no direct rail link between the two and it does not go via Scarborough, but it's interesting it's classed as an LNER bus, perhaps indicating a requirement to serve the east coast?

 

[Anvil1984]

According to a journey planner and real-time trains, LNER run a bus from York to Whitby. There is no direct rail link between the two and it does not go via Scarborough, but it's interesting it's classed as an LNER bus, perhaps indicating a requirement to serve the east coast?

LNER don't run a bus from York to Whitby. Its a normal service bus ran by Yorkshire Coastliner (or is it just Coastliner now). It's appeared on the departure boards at York for years. Through train/bus tickets are available for use on that service however

 

[swt_passenger]

LNER don't run a bus from York to Whitby. Its a normal service bus ran by Yorkshire Coastliner (or is it just Coastliner now). It's appeared on the departure boards at York for years. Through train/bus tickets are available for use on that service however

IIRC it‘s just that such a through ticketed bus service needs a sponsoring TOC to appear on displays. (It’s little different to the Isle of Wight ferries that appear on RTT for Portsmouth Harbour and are apparently operated by SW.)