Why don't the TOCs address this issue (collection of tickets)?

[Bungle73]

Right, my nearest station (Kemsley) has no ticket facilities at all. This means if I pre-book a ticket for collection I cannot pick it up there and have to make my own way to the nearest one that does (Sittingbourne). Under the current rules I cannot simply travel from Kemsley and pick uo my ticket at Sittingbourne as it is not allowed. This is a bit silly really as I can pay for journey that I cannot make without paying again, and through no fault of my own. Why cannot the system be that one shows the confirmation email just to allow one to get to a suitably equipped station?

I have queried Southeastern about this and they didn't really give an answer, except to say that the problem would be solved when they introduce smart card ticketing. When that will be I have no idea as they stated it would be a in a few years' time, and that was a few years ago.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Because you must have a ticket to travel and a receipt or print out is not a ticket, and does not prove that the ticket has not been refunded, altered, cancelled, or is being used by somebody else.

When buying the ticket a number of delivery / collection options are available, and you should choose the one most suitable for your needs. On East Coast, which I use, it does quite clearly say you cannot travel to the station on the email.

And whilst your journey is fairly short, there are large swathes of the country where stations have no machines or offices especially in rural areas - how far do you let people travel without a ticket?

 

[DeeGee]

Do Southeastern charge for any sort of delivery? In which case, buy online from the likes of RSH who don't.

 

[Bungle73]

Because you must have a ticket to travel and a receipt or print out is not a ticket, and does not prove that the ticket has not been refunded, altered, cancelled, or is being used by somebody else.

Quite frankly that is a poor excuse for such inconvenience for the passenger. We're not talking about a journey of hundreds if miles, it's about 5 minutes. And I can't believe any such journey would very long before one encountered a station with a machine. And even if it was that is entirely the TOC's fault.

When buying the ticket a number of delivery / collection options are available, and you should choose the one most suitable for your needs. On East Coast, which I use, it does quite clearly say you cannot travel to the station on the email.

Um, yes, I know it says that. Isn't that what I just said?

Why should I have to pay postage rates when it's the TOC's doing that I can't collect the ticket? And what if I'm booking a ticket for tomorrow, or in a few day's time?

And whilst your journey is fairly short, there are large swathes of the country where stations have no machines or offices especially in rural areas - how far do you let people travel without a ticket?

Until they can get to a machine. Of there isn't one close enough than maybe the TOCs should think of installing some more.

 

[sheff1]

I have long advocated that Home Print tickets should be an option for all journeys, as it has been for some time in many other European countries.

Apparently, though, smartcards will be the answer to all the current wrongs with the UK ticketing system and hence Home Print is not a priority.

 

[John @ home]

Why should I have to pay postage rates

You don't have to pay postage rates. DeeGee is correct that you can

buy online from ... RSH [redspottedhanky]

I seem to remember that franchised TOCs must offer a free method of delivery. East Coast, for example, offer me free postage for a journey starting in Cottingley, which has no ticket collection facilities, but would charge me £1 postage for a journey starting 2 miles away in Leeds, with many ticket machines.

 

[starrymarkb]

I have long advocated that Home Print tickets should be an option for all journeys, as it has been for some time in many other European countries.

Apparently, though, smartcards will be the answer to all the current wrongs with the UK ticketing system and hence Home Print is not a priority.

Though those are not available for all journeys. While I could P@H my ICE tickets, I'll have to buy tickets from Schönefeld at the station as the Airport to Berlin ticket is a Berlin VBB ticket and so DB can't sell them even though the trains are run by DB for now (The city is putting the S-Bahn out to tender having been p***ed off with DB for some time)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Quite frankly that is a poor excuse for such inconvenience for the passenger. We're not talking about a journey of hundreds if miles, it's about 5 minutes. And I can't believe any such journey would very long before one encountered a station with a machine. And even if it was that is entirely the TOC's fault....

The railway has to have a 'one size fits all' policy and that is why you get a list of stations you can collect at, so you can work out the logistics of collecting them before travel.

....Why should I have to pay postage rates when it's the TOC's doing that I can't collect the ticket? And what if I'm booking a ticket for tomorrow, or in a few day's time?

You don't have to pay postage if you use a site that doesn't charge for it.

If you do not have enough time left to have it posted to you for free, you have choices, pay for quicker postage (on most sites I believe), travel to pick up your ticket before the day, or buy your ticket at station (the latter may not be helpful for Advance fares bought at really short notice).

....Until they can get to a machine. Of there isn't one close enough than maybe the TOCs should think of installing some more.

Or perhaps you should consider your options fully before passing the blame. How on earth did people cope before ToD?

At my local station we do not have ticket machines, there are stations with ticket machines on line of route in each direction that are with a fifteen minute journey, however, in order for a person to know they are there, they would have to alight the train to check. Given the service for most of the stations on the line is hourly, I'm not sure asking people to get off at every stop to check for ticket machines is very 'customer friendly'. The reality then becomes that you could travel for over an hour before alighting at a station with the required facilities on this line. On other lines it could be well over two hours!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

How on earth did people cope before ToD?

You didn't usually need to purchase in advance because the fares at a ticket office were the same as if you pre-purchased. Trains where you paid the conductor would only offer a limited range of local tickets, so you might have to buy a second ticket from a staffed office.

 

[jb]

I have long advocated that Home Print tickets should be an option for all journeys, as it has been for some time in many other European countries.

Of course, this would help in the real world.

On here we would have "what about people who don't have a printer" or "what about those who 'feel' that home printing is not for them" or "what about the TOCs responsibility to provide printer ink and paper to those who wish to print at home" and we'd be back to square one.

 

[cyclebytrain]

This particular scenario raises an interesting question to me: since Kemsley has a permit to travel machine, if you have an advance from Kemsley to somewhere, could you (hypothetically) use this (i.e. a 5p cost) to travel to Sittingbourne to collect the tickets? I can't actually think of a rule that this contravenes!

 

[Welshman]

Or perhaps you should consider your options fully before passing the blame. How on earth did people cope before ToD?

ToD came in with the growth of buying tickets at home via the internet and through telesales. Before these two became available, you went to the station or approved travel agency to buy your ticket, and collected it then and there, so it was not necessary.

Also, as MarlowDonkey has stated, there was no financial incentive to buy in advance. You just did that if you feared there would be a queue at the booking-office on the day.

 

[bb21]

This particular scenario raises an interesting question to me: since Kemsley has a permit to travel machine, if you have an advance from Kemsley to somewhere, could you (hypothetically) use this (i.e. a 5p cost) to travel to Sittingbourne to collect the tickets? I can't actually think of a rule that this contravenes!

If you are checked before arriving at Sittingbourne, you will be asked to pay the fare to Sittingbourne, less 5p.

 

[cyclebytrain]

If you are checked before arriving at Sittingbourne, you will be asked to pay the fare to Sittingbourne, less 5p.

^That's the bit I'm wondering about. I think the conditions of carriage say "until you have a reasonable opportunity", not "at the first opportunity" I don't think this scenario was even considered when they were written, but I also don't think that it clearly rules it out either

 

[maniacmartin]

I can understand that it might not be economical to install a TVM at every rural station that might also be subject to vandalism. A bigger annoyance for me is stations that have a ticket office and also TVMs, but that don't support ToD.

 

[Be3G]

This is something I've sometimes wondered about too. I note that a couple of people in this thread have mentioned getting tickets delivered in the post for free – a good idea, in theory. However, it seems to me that this is more difficult now than it used to be. John@home has already given one example of this. Another is that it seems you have to book tickets quite far in advance to qualify for free 1st class delivery. I tried booking tickets yesterday for use next Monday, and the only postal option I was given was next day delivery for £6. It doesn't take one week for something to arrive by 1st class; Royal Mail's latest QoS report shows approx. 92% of 1st class items arriving within one day.

Finally, I've seen occasional mention on here of where some TOCs say that if they send tickets to you using standard (i.e. non-tracked) 1st class post and they don't arrive, you remain fully liable for the lost tickets! Even if that's not legally enforceable, I'm sure that must scare a few people in to paying the extra for tracked delivery.

So having tickets delivered for free in the post is a nice thought, and it's how I used to order tickets years ago. But these days it appears that the TOCs are trying to make it more trouble than it's worth.

 

[bb21]

^That's the bit I'm wondering about. I think the conditions of carriage say "until you have a reasonable opportunity", not "at the first opportunity" I don't think this scenario was even considered when they were written, but I also don't think that it clearly rules it out either

The problem is that if you encounter a commercial guard on the train, it will be both the first opportunity and a reasonable opportunity in the scenario described.

Reasonable opportunity is open to interpretation under certain circumstances, eg. when you have a 5-minute connection at your intermediate station but there are three people in the queue at the ticket office in front of you. I don't think you can reasonably argue that it is not a full opportunity if you encounter a guard.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

ToD came in with the growth of buying tickets at home via the internet and through telesales. Before these two became available, you went to the station or approved travel agency to buy your ticket, and collected it then and there, so it was not necessary....

I guess I forgot to use the sarcastic rhetorical question smiley....

....Also, as MarlowDonkey has stated, there was no financial incentive to buy in advance. You just did that if you feared there would be a queue at the booking-office on the day.

So what you are both saying (yes I realise I haven't quoted you both) is that before ToD you couldn't get an advance purchase ticket (Apex, Advance, etc) with an origin of Kemsley? And that when ToD came along every train company rushed to get these fares out there for the hordes of people who wanted them? Why do I find that hard to believe.....

^That's the bit I'm wondering about. I think the conditions of carriage say "until you have a reasonable opportunity", not "at the first opportunity" I don't think this scenario was even considered when they were written, but I also don't think that it clearly rules it out either

The NRCoC states "as soon as is reasonably practicable", which is often badly misquoted in an attempt to get around certain issues (like having to queue at a ticket office mid-journey). The Guard/RPI coming through the train for tickets would be a reasonably practicable opportunity to buy "an appropriate ticket to complete your journey".

 

[Solent&Wessex]

You didn't usually need to purchase in advance because the fares at a ticket office were the same as if you pre-purchased. Trains where you paid the conductor would only offer a limited range of local tickets, so you might have to buy a second ticket from a staffed office.

I remember making making many journeys either with the family or on my own once old enough throughout the 1990's, which was before TOD facilities existed. We always used to use Advance, Super Advance, Apex, Super Apex or one of the other myriad of "Advance" type fares (which each had their own booking deadlines and conditions!), mainly because we couldn't often afford the walk-up tickets for the longer journeys and had to use the cheaper advance purchase fares!

We used to have to go traipsing off to the nearest staffed station to buy the tickets, but even then not all stations could do advance fares as it depended on what computer systems they had in place. If they couldn't make reservations you had to wait while they phoned up somewhere else to make the reservations on their behalf. If you couldn't get to a staffed station you went to a travel agent. If you couldn't get to either of them then it was tough. And of course that depended on what tickets were available, which you didn't know till you got there.

Whilst I would agree the difference between the Advance and Walk Up fares has got greater, it is certainly not true that before TOD etc then it was of no benefit to book in advance.

Likewise Railcards, season tickets and a host of other facilities now available by phone or internet were only available at principle staffed stations. Which is why the National Rail Timetable always had a little logo next to stations in the station list - not just "staffed station" but "seat reservations may be made here".


Back to the original point, the train companies make lots of different collections methods available to you, and you should choose the most appropriate to your needs, within the boundaries of what is actually available.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Interesting thread.

Or at least the interesting bit is the defence of the absurd.

The monopolistic railway yet again demonstrates its lack of "customer" centricity and hides behind outdates rules and the technical rights of staff to penalise the inconvenienced customer, sorry, traveller.

My last 11 European train journeys have all been with a ticket printed at home/office.

I get on a plane with a boarding pass printed at home.

But here? Perish the thought that we should make it easy for the public.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How many of those 11 European train tickets had a portion that was not reservable?

How many of you plane journeys have not had a reservation?

 

[sheff1]

Don't really see the relevance of the question, but for my home printed European rail tickets over the last few years at least 50% have had sections which were not reservable. In both categories I would guess that around a third involve multiple operators.

 

[bb21]

Don't really see the relevance of the question, but for my home printed European rail tickets over the last few years at least 50% have had sections which were not reservable. In both categories I would guess that around a third involve multiple operators.

Do they always check IDs?

There is no reason why it cannot be done in the UK, provided that the ticket always specifies a name with appropriate ID, at least for all Advance fares.

Probably a bit trickier with walk-on fares, however at least for Day tickets I think this should also be workable. I mean how many people will really make the same journey more than once on the same day (if the inability to "cancel" a ticket on-train is a concern)?

If the TOCs are that worried about a refunded ticket being fraudulently used, make it clear that there is no refund permitted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Don't really see the relevance of the question, but for my home printed European rail tickets over the last few years at least 50% have had sections which were not reservable. In both categories I would guess that around a third involve multiple operators.

Relevance?

If you had a reservation it would be obvious if you were using an additional copy of the ticket (you would either be travelling at the wrong time or you would already be aboard).

An Anytime Return print at home ticket would almost be print at home money (an idea to suggest to the banks maybe?).

The train ticket question was genuine as I have no idea how European print at home train tickets work, but IIRC you need reservations for TGV and AVE services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....Probably a bit trickier with walk-on fares, however at least for Day tickets I think this should also be workable. I mean how many people will really make the same journey more than once on the same day (if the inability to "cancel" a ticket on-train is a concern)?....

Would not having ID make the ticket invalid? If so, do you think there would be an increase in people coming to this site seeking advice for, and moaning about, a 'genuine error' that is 'completely unfair to the passenger'?

Equally, what ID would I have to carry around with me? Is my library card enough?

....If the TOCs are that worried about a refunded ticket being fraudulently used, make it clear that there is no refund permitted.

That would breach the NRCoC (except where tickets are already non-refundable).

26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used.

If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all
or part of your intended journey, then:....

....(d) if paragraphs (a) and (b) do not apply, the ticket has been bought from a Train
Company’s telesales office or a Train Company’s internet website and you
return the ticket to an address notified by that Train Company no later than 28
days after the expiry of the ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund (subject to
the notes below); or

(e) if paragraphs (a) and (b) do not apply and the ticket has been bought from a travel
agent or other internet website, if you return the ticket to that agent no later
than 28 days after the expiry of the ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund
(subject to the notes below).

Notes:....

....(iii) Your right to receive a refund under (c), (d) and (e) above of all or part of the price
paid may be restricted in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare
tickets, for example, those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights
will be made clear to you when you buy your ticket....

 

[bb21]

Would not having ID make the ticket invalid? If so, do you think there would be an increase in people coming to this site seeking advice for, and moaning about, a 'genuine error' that is 'completely unfair to the passenger'?

Equally, what ID would I have to carry around with me? Is my library card enough?

Whatever system is put in place, there will be people moaning. You can't stop that.

The form of ID used could be limited to a selection: passport, DL, PASS-endorsed ID, etc. Make it absolutely clear what would be accepted at the booking stage.

That would breach the NRCoC (except where tickets are already non-refundable).

Of course one way to deal with this is to alter the NRCoC.

Another way is to create a new fare type.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Interesting thread.

Or at least the interesting bit is the defence of the absurd.

The monopolistic railway yet again demonstrates its lack of "customer" centricity and hides behind outdates rules and the technical rights of staff to penalise the inconvenienced customer, sorry, traveller.

My last 11 European train journeys have all been with a ticket printed at home/office.

I get on a plane with a boarding pass printed at home.

But here? Perish the thought that we should make it easy for the public.

And then someone would moan saying they didn't have a working printer, and their local station didn't have a ticket machine, nor ticket office and there was no time to post. All of which would be the fault of the rail company who should allow them to travel merely by taking their word that at some point they have got a ticket.

 

[theblackwatch]

Do they always check IDs?

There is no reason why it cannot be done in the UK, provided that the ticket always specifies a name with appropriate ID, at least for all Advance fares.

Probably a bit trickier with walk-on fares, however at least for Day tickets I think this should also be workable. I mean how many people will really make the same journey more than once on the same day (if the inability to "cancel" a ticket on-train is a concern)?

If the TOCs are that worried about a refunded ticket being fraudulently used, make it clear that there is no refund permitted.

I've travelled around Germany on several occasions using Advance 'print at home' tickets and DB always check the ID which I have specified, which is my Credit Card. I'm intrigued what they do with the card though - it gets put in some card reading machine and they type something in, as well as zapping the barcode on the ticket and 'gripping' it. I did notice though that, when I travelled into/out of Poland on such a ticket earlier this month, there was no ID check from the Polish staff.

 

[Rhydgaled]

there are large swathes of the country where stations have no machines or offices especially in rural areas - how far do you let people travel without a ticket?

Tell me about it, I think my home county (Pembrokeshire) has only one staffed (not counting the travel agent at Milford Haven) station in it, despite having three rail routes.

What's the point in restricting your travel options to a single train (with an advance ticket) if some/most of the savings are eliminated by having to pay expensive postage, or a bus fare/fuel bill to go and collect the tickets? Making both print at home and mobile tickets available for all services could be a solution, given that a network-wide roll out of ticket machine is probablly unviable.

Do Southeastern charge for any sort of delivery? In which case, buy online from the likes of RSH who don't.

Do RSH (I assue you mean Red Spotted Hankey) charge a booking fee like The Trainline? If not, how do they make their money? And who runs it? Is it a NationalRail/ATOC service?

I seem to remember that franchised TOCs must offer a free method of delivery.

I don't think so, I think I've seen one of the TOC websites offering no free means of obtaining tickets for a train departing from Fishguard, other than buying on the train.

"what about people who don't have a printer" or "what about those who 'feel' that home printing is not for them" or "what about the TOCs responsibility to provide printer ink and paper to those who wish to print at home" and we'd be back to square one.

Hurm, that's a tricky one. How about making on-board tickets much cheaper from stations that don't have ticket issuing facilities so there is no need to get the tickets before boarding?

 

[Deerfold]

Tell me about it, I think my home county (Pembrokeshire) has only one staffed (not counting the travel agent at Milford Haven) station in it, despite having three rail routes.

What's the point in restricting your travel options to a single train (with an advance ticket) if some/most of the savings are eliminated by having to pay expensive postage, or a bus fare/fuel bill to go and collect the tickets? Making both print at home and mobile tickets available for all services could be a solution, given that a network-wide roll out of ticket machine is probablly unviable.

See earlier posts for details of how to get free postage on tickets - eg East Coast will not charge postage if there are no TOD-enabled machines at the departure station and you order a week ahead.

If the saving is so small that it's wiped out by postage costs I'd usually got for a non-advance ticket to get the extra flexibility.

Do RSH (I assue you mean Red Spotted Hankey) charge a booking fee like The Trainline? If not, how do they make their money? And who runs it? Is it a NationalRail/ATOC service?

They take the comission on the sales. They have an advantage as it's run by ATOS who developed the website so they (presumably) don't have to pay fees to use it.

I don't think so, I think I've seen one of the TOC websites offering no free means of obtaining tickets for a train departing from Fishguard, other than buying on the train.

Hurm, that's a tricky one. How about making on-board tickets much cheaper from stations that don't have ticket issuing facilities so there is no need to get the tickets before boarding?

I managed with a local station with no ticket issuing facilities until last year despite the nearest station where I could pick up my tickets being a 6 pound off-peak return fare away. Yes, it's better now I can pick up tickets from my local station.

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. How do cheaper fares change whether you having to get tickets before boarding? And they'd probably introduce new anomalies and more ways of saving with splitting tickets.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. How do cheaper fares change whether you having to get tickets before boarding? And they'd probably introduce new anomalies and more ways of saving with splitting tickets.

Cheaper on-board fares would mean they would be no benifit in having an advance ticket, and therefore no need to collect before travel, because it wouldn't be an advance ticket. If the passenger numbers at a station aren't sufficent to put a ticket machine/office in, then the reduction in revenue should be minor. As an additional plus it would be an insentive for the TOC to install a ticket machine so they could charge higher on-board fares. Split-ticketing could be a problem with that idea I suppose. I doubt you could make advance tickets collectable from the guard.