Why was the Colne - Skipton line removed and why has it never been put back?

[PacerTrain142]

I don't know if this question has been asked before, but it's something that I think needs to be discussed.

For those that don't know, in the 1950's/60's, rail use was in decline. British Railways gave a man called Beeching the job of evaluating the use of stations/sections of track across Britian and closing those that weren't making a profit.

This lead to a huge chunk (forgot how much) of the rail network dissapearing. Many branch lines were lost, but what was even worse was that key rail links between regions were lost, an excellent example being the Colne - Skipton line which linked Lancashire with Yorkshire.

Fast forward to 2019 and the rail link still hasn't been re-instated yet, despite lots of campaigns by MP's and SELRAP in the past. As a result, it is no longer possible to travel by train between Colne and Skipton/West Yorkshire. You are forced to either drive or take the bus, with the latter taking much much longer than it would by train.

In fact, to demonstrate how ridiculous this is, I pretended that I was a student living in Colne and had to get to Craven College (which is in Skipton) by 9:00 AM on a weekday morning and I could only use the train. I went onto Google Maps, put in both places, selected arrive by 9:00 AM and selected the "prefer train" option.

It came back with one option, which would involve me leaving the house at 5 am! I would have to walk down to Colne station by 5:22 AM (yes walk, as there would be no buses running at that time), catch the 5:22 Preston service to Accrington, change platforms, wait about 20 minutes, catch the 6:11 York service to Leeds, wait 13 minutes at Leeds before catching the 7:47 Carlisle service back to Skipton! I would then arrive in Skipton around 8:25 with a 17 minute walk from the station to college. The whole journey time is a mouth-watering 3 hours and 41 mins! (see my attached screenshot below).

3 hours and 41 mins for a 12 mile journey! In fact, it would almost be quicker to walk with the quickest route taking 4 hours and 7 mins according to Google Maps.


I know that British Rail needed to save money, but to take away such a short but such an important stretch of line seems really short-sighted to me. Would it really have a cost too much to keep such a short section of line?

Okay, maybe the small village stations along the route such as Foulridge or Earby weren't earning thier keep, but surely they could have just closed down those little-used stations and just have it as a through service between Skipton and Colne?

I'm also wondering that despite numerous bids, pleas and campaigns by MP's, organisations etc has the line has still not been re-built yet some 50 years later.

All that would need to be done is to lay down 12 miles of single unelectrified track (with perhaps a passing loop built at Colne so that the service could stay hourly and trains could pass one another).

The service could then become Preston - Skipton, Blackpool South to Skipton, or even Preston/Blackpool South to Leeds.

My other point is about the loss of a rail link between East Lancashire and West Yorkshire. If you want to get from Colne to Skipton or Keighley you have to get the bus which takes about 3-4 times as long as it would do by train. If you want to get from Colne to Leeds, you have to either get a bus to Skipton or Keighley and a train to Leeds or get a bus to Burnley and get a train to Leeds from Burnley Manchester Road. And if you are travelling from Nelson or Brierfield to Skipton, it now takes even longer as Transdev and Pennine (when they were still operating) used to have a direct bus service from those towns to Skipton - guess what? Now they don't! If you want to travel by bus from Brierfield or Nelson to Skipton you first have to get a bus to Colne and transfer onto the X43! This is because the X43 is the only bus service from East Lancashire to Skipton, and the route now uses the M65 between Burnley and Colne, completely missing out Brierfield and Nelson!

Things just seem to be getting worse not better!

I'm sure there are a lot of people who live in East Lancashire and work in West Yorkshire and vice-versa, and not all of these people will be able/want to/afford to drive into work everyday.


So my question is why did they take away this small but important rail link and why have they not putit back yet? I mean it took them forever to re-build the Todmorden Curve and that is just about 100 yards of track! Bloody useless they are!

 

[Kingham West]

Rather like Oxford -Cambridge, a no brainier to restore , the social and economic regeneration case is strong.
However we do need a fast track procedure for identifying routes with potential , delivering results.
But at least this one is on the list.
Portishead has taken 20 years so patience is obviously key.
If it were a road, well no problems, Rail still lacks a level playing field .

 

[tbtc]

In fact, to demonstrate how ridiculous this is, I pretended that I was a student living in Colne and had to get to Craven College (which is in Skipton) by 9:00 AM on a weekday morning and I could only use the train. I went onto Google Maps, put in both places, selected arrive by 9:00 AM and selected the "prefer train" option.

It came back with one option, which would involve me leaving the house at 5 am! I would have to walk down to Colne station by 5:22 AM (yes walk, as there would be no buses running at that time), catch the 5:22 Preston service to Accrington, change platforms, wait about 20 minutes, catch the 6:11 York service to Leeds, wait 13 minutes at Leeds before catching the 7:47 Carlisle service back to Skipton! I would then arrive in Skipton around 8:25 with a 17 minute walk from the station to college. The whole journey time is a mouth-watering 3 hours and 41 mins! (see my attached screenshot).

3 hours and 41 mins for a 12 mile journey!

Sounds terrible... unless you remember that there's a half hourly bus service that takes around half an hour between the two places... and suddenly the 05:22 start seems a bit of a straw man argument...

The Skipton - Colne line is a great favourite on the Forum - every year or two there'll be some SELRAP study that claims some amazing return on money if only we'd re-open the line, but fails to explain whether their maths is based upon an extension of the hourly DMU from Preston to Colne through to Skipton (i.e. single track line, minimal signalling, one additional DMU) or is some all-singing all-dancing trans-pennine line that takes West Yorkshire's EMUs through to Burnley under the wires and provides lots of overtaking facilities to cope with all of the hundreds of freight trains that they suggest might use a re-opened route.

The whole thing seems a non starter for a number of reasons, but here are a few:

• The population of Nelson/Colne really isn't *that* huge (not to have a through service to Leeds)
• The existing service from East Lancashire (Preston/ Blackburn/ Burnley) to West Yorkshire (Halifax/ Bradford/ Leeds) only warrants an hourly (three coach?) DMU at the moment - AIUI there are no plans to increase the frequency or train length (despite such plans for a number of lines on the Northern franchise), so it's not like there's a massive market from East Lancashire to West Yorkshire that doesn't already have a direct service or that the existing service is so busy that we need to re-open a parallel route to take pressure off it << if it matters that much then they could extend the new Hull - Halifax service over the Pennines to terminate at somewhere like Blackburn without needing to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a new bit of railway
• The current passenger loadings on the Colne branch are around a couple of dozen passengers per service on average. If you can't attract many people from Nelson/Colne on a direct train to Burnley/ Blackburn etc then the numbers wanting to travel to Skipton aren't going to be that significant
• These threads are always about how Nelson/Colne need/ "deserve" a service to Leeds as their only way of achieving economic salvation, but there's never the same fuss made about a direct service from Nelson/Colne into Manchester (y'know, the nearer bigger city, that would be a much more obvious place for a Nelson/Colne commuter to want a train to). Possibly because these threads are just an excuse to try to justify re-opening an old abandoned route, rather than a sober assessment of where people want to travel to
• It'd be a really slow line - look at how far north Skipton is (when you are talking about Nelson/Colne to Leeds) - whilst the SELRAP people write puff-pieces about a new trans-pennine link from Liverpool to Hull, it wouldn't be the fastest route between any two significant places. Preston/ Blackburn/ Burnley to Halifax/ Bradford/ Leeds will always be faster via Hebden Bridge... the speed of the main trans-pennine route through Huddersfield (and high frequency) means that even Keighley - Manchester would be faster via Leeds.

Credit to the people at SELRAP though - they've done brilliantly at generating press attention and high profile endorsements for a very "thin" cause - it's a classic Solution In Need Of A Problem - lots of people want it without really being able to come up with a good reason why it's so essential (when there are so many other things we could be spending our money on). Anyhow, time to sit back, open the popcorn and wait for someone to point out that "we could build this for a fraction of what it'd cost to build HS2" (without coming up with a great reason of *why* we should re-open the line).

 

[Hardcastle]

The line was never marked to close in fact it was proposed that it was the only link to Skipton to remain open at one point as regards Earby that would not have closed if the line was still open. The reason that Nelson & Colne do not generate much traffic is the fact that it does not go eastwards plus westwards the local bus links to other local towns ie Burnley is good a regeneration of the area is needed plus the rolling stock leaves much to be desired.

 

[Ken H]

Colne station is half a mile from the centre so hardly attractive
The old alignment west of skipton has had the bypass built over it, so a new bridge needed. And the bridge over the river Aire has gone too, so approaching Skipton would cost a load of cash.

Why not more trains Clitheroe- hellifield to meet trains to Leeds and Carlisle. Even reverse some to do preston-blackburn-hellifield-skipton? Signalling needs some tarting as I dont think you can reverse trains from Clitheroe at Hellifield, as the winter Preston Hellifield trains reverse at Settle Jct.

 

[30907]

The line was never marked to close in fact it was proposed that it was the only link to Skipton to remain open at one point...

Well, it was shown on a BR map, which also included Keswick, Okehampton, Fleetwood and others.

Going back to the OP's question - there was far less commuting generally in the 60s, outside the big conurbations, and Leeds was nothing like the centre it has since become.

 

[The Lad]

There is limited freight opportunity and such as there is would be constrained by the junctions at Leeds, it is a shame but the X43 does a pretty good job.

 

[bluenoxid]

How close were we to losing Todmorden to Burnley (Copy Pit) in the early 80’s?

 

[6Gman]

I don't know if this question has been asked before, but it's something that I think needs to be discussed.

For those that don't know, in the 1950's/60's, rail use was in decline. [1] British Railways gave a man called Beeching the job of evaluating the use of stations/sections of track across Britian and closing those that weren't making a profit.

This lead to a huge chunk (forgot how much) of the rail network dissapearing. Many branch lines were lost, but what was even worse was that key rail links between regions were lost, an excellent example being the Colne - Skipton line which linked Lancashire with Yorkshire.

Fast forward to 2019 and the rail link still hasn't been re-instated yet, despite lots of campaigns by MP's and SELRAP in the past. [2] As a result, it is no longer possible to travel by train between Colne and Skipton/West Yorkshire. You are forced to either drive or take the bus, with the latter taking much much longer than it would by train.

I know that British Rail needed to save money, [3] but to take away such a short but such an important stretch of line seems really short-sighted to me. [4] Would it really have a cost too much to keep such a short section of line?

[5] All that would need to be done is to lay down 12 miles of single unelectrified track (with perhaps a passing loop built at Colne so that the service could stay hourly and trains could pass one another).

[6] I'm sure there are a lot of people who live in East Lancashire and work in West Yorkshire and vice-versa, and not all of these people will be able/want to/afford to drive into work everyday.

[7] So my question is why did they take away this small but important rail link and why have they not putit back yet?

[1] Colne - Skipton was not a Beeching closure.
[2] No different from lots of other similar cases. (Dare I mention Aberystwyth-Carmarthen or Dumffries-Stranraer?)
[3] Again, happened in many cases. And is it really such an important stretch of line? Stations from Burnley westward already have a link to West Yorkshire.
[4] Presumably it was felt too expensive at the time.
[5] A little more complicated than that!
[6] The figures will be available somewhere, but I suspect they are pretty low - and that many of them would prefer to drive.
[7] Because it was losing more money than they were willing to pay and that the case for rebuilding has never been robust enough.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

How close were we to losing Todmorden to Burnley (Copy Pit) in the early 80’s?

Good question , talking to one of my senior mates today who was a Regional Freight Manager at the time , and his view on the survival of the freight industry at the time after the catastrophic effect of the miner's strike and previous ASLEF impacts on flexible rostering created a massive hole in BR's finances , was actually a very troubling time.

All sorts of dire consequences were foreseen , but luckily the industry weathered the storm , I suspect that with the collapse of Yorkshire - Lancashire coal flows in those years (something which killed largely the Woodhead route before - and much discussed here ad infinitum) , you could expect a hard look would have been cast over this , and similar routes. Nationally.

Perhaps a saving grace would have been the condition of the infrastructure - track really - had it been in need of considerable renewals , it could easily have been a candidate for closure. The (welcome) introduction of a modest passenger service probably tipped the balance. The DfT of the time were not exactly wholly supportive of the railways as well covered in the works of Chris Austin and Lord Falkener. The answer is , I suspect lurking in the archives at Kew.

 

[edwin_m]

Good question , talking to one of my senior mates today who was a Regional Freight Manager at the time , and his view on the survival of the freight industry at the time after the catastrophic effect of the miner's strike and previous ASLEF impacts on flexible rostering created a massive hole in BR's finances , was actually a very troubling time.

All sorts of dire consequences were foreseen , but luckily the industry weathered the storm , I suspect that with the collapse of Yorkshire - Lancashire coal flows in those years (something which killed largely the Woodhead route before - and much discussed here ad infinitum) , you could expect a hard look would have been cast over this , and similar routes. Nationally.

Perhaps a saving grace would have been the condition of the infrastructure - track really - had it been in need of considerable renewals , it could easily have been a candidate for closure. The (welcome) introduction of a modest passenger service probably tipped the balance. The DfT of the time were not exactly wholly supportive of the railways as well covered in the works of Chris Austin and Lord Falkener. The answer is , I suspect lurking in the archives at Kew.

From what I remember, one of the earlier stages of the consolidation of the financial services industry involved the merger of building societies based in the Preston and Bradford areas (to form National and Provincial I think). They sponsored or at least encourages a train to link the two for their employees, and it sort of grew from there.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From what I remember, one of the earlier stages of the consolidation of the financial services industry involved the merger of building societies based in the Preston and Bradford areas (to form National and Provincial I think). They sponsored or at least encourages a train to link the two for their employees, and it sort of grew from there.

My understanding - and a good job they did it !

 

[Dr Hoo]

Spot on. It was an early success for the Provincial business sector, demonstrating some thinking across traditional regional boundaries.

In the context of this thread it does raise the question about the underlying commercial affinity across the Colne-Skipton divide that cannot be met by other routes (or modes).

It would also be helpful to understand why the OP came up with the construct of a cohort that can only travel by train.

 

[Jonny]

The problem is that the Skipton-Colne route is highly circuitous; about 10 miles extra Burnley-Leeds and optimised for minimal gradients at the expense of speed-limiting curvature.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You always feel there are those already to come forward with their usual "road" axe to grind (however did they suppose travel routes existed prior to both canals and railways?), but even the M65 motorway link is only westwards from Colne to the M6 and was never extended eastwards like the M62 over the Pennine boundaries.

 

[yorksrob]

For a company that supposedly didn't like branch lines, BR didn't half like creating them. The number of through routes which were chopped in half is quite notable. Uckfield, Colne, Okehampton etc.

A silly policy because you immediately undermine the remaining section (unless that was your intention anyway !).

 

[Neptune]

It all comes down to nice to haves rather than must haves. This route was closed due to economics. Would those economics stand up in today’s market bearing in mind the costs of such a rebuild? How long would it take for this small stretch of line to pay for itself?

What could be done as an alternative?

I don’t know anything about buses but does the current Colne to Skipton service meet demand? If it does then there is no reason to rebuild the route. If it doesn’t then would it be cheaper to improve the bus links rather than rebuild the line? Almost certainly. Bear in mind Skipton bus station is much more central than the rail station and from what I understand the same applies to Would rebuilding the line be of more benefit than improving the bus service? Doubtful.

Commuting to Leeds is another reason given. There is an hourly Burnley to Leeds service. To overcome either a lengthy walk between stations at Burnley or changing at Accrington could the York - Blackpool service call additionally at Rose Grove as per the Blackburn to Manchester service to provide a convenient interchange from the Colne line? The answer is almost certainly yes as these services have considerable pathing times over Copy Pit, especially eastbound. Is this more cost beneficial than the 12 mile rebuild? Absolutely.

Alternatively I know many people drive to Steeton & Silsden from the area to take advantage of the cheaper fares from there to Leeds. It’s not a particularly long drive and Steeton car park is about to be extended with 2 new decks. Would people sack this commute for a direct train service with little or no time saving but much additional cost? I doubt it.

As I say, Colne to Skipton appears to be a nice to have than a must have. As always, cost is the biggest driver and I can’t honestly see how this link would add up financially.

 

[jonty14]

So many anti rail and pro bus people on a Rail Forum. Strange

 

[Neptune]

I am certainly pro-rail over buses which I find hateful, but I also understand finances and for me the finances do not stack up for this scheme. Perhaps if it had never closed then it would be paying for itself today, or perhaps not. There are other schemes that are more worthy of investment such as the cross country route from Oxford - Cambridge and improving lines already at pinch point.

 

[yorksrob]

It's funny that whenever such discussions come up on the forum, bus services are mentioned in one of two ways:

A) There are lots and lots of buses, therefore we don't need a railway because the route is already well served by buses.

B) There aren't many buses, therefore there's no demand for rail travel.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For a company that supposedly didn't like branch lines, BR didn't half like creating them. The number of through routes which were chopped in half is quite notable. Uckfield, Colne, Okehampton etc.

A silly policy because you immediately undermine the remaining section (unless that was your intention anyway !).

Whilst we are on the thread discussing rail travel from Colne to Skipton, there was of course the long-existing branch line to Barnoldswick from Earby which left this line and was not closed until 27th September 1965.

 

[30907]

The topic was discussed here not so long ago:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ine-colne-skipton.147658/page-11#post-3884838

 

[tbtc]

The problem is that the Skipton-Colne route is highly circuitous; about 10 miles extra Burnley-Leeds and optimised for minimal gradients at the expense of speed-limiting curvature.

Agreed - it makes a fine cross-pennine route if you are building a canal that wants to avoid expensive tunnels, which was fine two hundred years ago, but technology has moved on somewhat.

So many anti rail and pro bus people on a Rail Forum. Strange

I think it show what a dreadful case there is for re-opening such a route, in that even many rail enthusiasts can't back it (compared to the general agreement you'd get on here for a simple reopening from a town into the nearest big city - e.g. Portishead, Ashington) - even most enthusiasts have some realism.

Heavy rail is great but it isn't always the answer to everything. There are much better places we could be spaffing our money around.

Perhaps if it had never closed then it would be paying for itself today, or perhaps not

As an example, the current Colne branch has the following passenger numbers:

Colne 92,132
Nelson 123,000
Brierfield 31,350

...i.e. slightly under a quarter of a million passengers pa.

Divide that over the current service (nineteen return journeys a day other than thirteen on a Sunday) = 146 services per week, so over 7,500 journeys pa - if you divide 250,000 passengers by the 7,500 journeys then you get an average passenger load that a minibus could cope with - it's so quiet that you wouldn't need half of the seats on a single 153!

So the line is very quiet as things stand (despite providing through services to Burnley/ Accrington/ Blackburn/ Preston etc), it must be losing a lot of money (given that it'll need at least six members of staff to provide the trains over a year - three drivers and three conductors... the staff cost alone must work out at around a quid per single journey and it's only £3.40 for an adult return from Colne to Burnley). Obviously if you built an all-singing all-dancing double track electrified route through to Skipton it'd be busier, but the train clearly can't compete with the "Mainline" bus service from Colne to Burnley - it's a basket case branchline.

If there were no train from Colne to Burnley I'd consider it worth investigating as Transdev can obviously run a frequent commercial bus service but the stations are badly located, the demand just cannot sustain a train service.

The topic was discussed here not so long ago:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ine-colne-skipton.147658/page-11#post-3884838

...and there will be one again in a few months time - because it's impossible to argue with people who have their mind made up about what must be re-opened (but haven't found the time to justify *why* it must be re-opened).

We'll be arguing about these kind of rural routes forever because there's no way to battle nostalgia.

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst we are on the thread discussing rail travel from Colne to Skipton, there was of course the long-existing branch line to Barnoldswick from Earby which left this line and was not closed until 27th September 1965.

I believe it closed to regular passenger services a lot earlier.

 

[sprunt]

So many anti rail and pro bus people on a Rail Forum. Strange

If I were anti-rail, I'd support re-opening this link, then when it didn't get the passenger numbers to justify the expenditure I could point at it and shout "Look, it's a waste of time and money reinstating rail links!"

 

[PacerTrain142]

You always feel there are those already to come forward with their usual "road" axe to grind (however did they suppose travel routes existed prior to both canals and railways?), but even the M65 motorway link is only westwards from Colne to the M6 and was never extended eastwards like the M62 over the Pennine boundaries.

I know, it often feels like Colne is the end of the universe lol. It almost feels like the powers that be want Lancashire and Yorkshire folk to stay seperate and not mix lol.

 

[PacerTrain142]

The reason that Nelson & Colne do not generate much traffic is the fact that it does not go eastwards plus westwards the local bus links to other local towns ie Burnley is good a regeneration of the area is needed plus the rolling stock leaves much to be desired.

So true. The buses have sort of taken over round here. The buses are packed but the trains are almost empty. But buses are slow and expensive and the journeys are boring. I think an excellent way to improve the rail service round here would be to convert the line to a light rail system ie like Tyne and Wear Metro, have more frequent trains ie half hourly instead of hourly, add a passing loop at Brierfield and extend the line to Skipton. Just think - commuters/shoppers could easily travel from Skipton/Keighley to Burnley/Blackburn.

 

[PacerTrain142]

It's funny that whenever such discussions come up on the forum, bus services are mentioned in one of two ways:

A) There are lots and lots of buses, therefore we don't need a railway because the route is already well served by buses.

B) There aren't many buses, therefore there's no demand for rail travel.

Exactly. While we're at it, why don't get rid of the Colne-Preston service and rip up the Colne-Burnley branch line? After all, you can get a bus from Burnley to Preston. Who needs a train? In fact, there is a bus that goes from Nelson Bus Station to London everyday, why do we need trains at all?

 

[NoMorePacers]

Exactly. While we're at it, why don't get rid of the Colne-Preston service and rip up the Colne-Burnley branch line? After all, you can get a bus from Burnley to Preston. In fact, there is a bus that goes from Nelson Bus Station to London everyday, why do we need trains at all?

I personally think that we should close all railway lines and stations in Sheffield, and run buses to the destinations served instead.

 

[PacerTrain142]

• These threads are always about how Nelson/Colne need/ "deserve" a service to Leeds as their only way of achieving economic salvation, but there's never the same fuss made about a direct service from Nelson/Colne into Manchester (y'know, the nearer bigger city, that would be a much more obvious place for a Nelson/Colne commuter to want a train to). Possibly because these threads are just an excuse to try to justify re-opening an old abandoned route, rather than a sober assessment of where people want to travel to

That would be great if there was. It could be easily implemented as well. Have the train start at Colne and then stop at Rose Grove, driver changes ends and the train changes direction and goes to Burnley Manchester Road and the other stations before arriving at Manchster Piccadilly. Also add a passing loop at Brierfield so that the hourly service to Preston/Blackpool could continue as well as an hourly service from Colne to Manchester.

The service could even split at Rose Grove so you could have a 4 car train from Manchester Piccadilly to Rose Grove, then at Rose Grove the train splits so that 2 coaches go to Blackburn and the other 2 coaches go to Colne. The 2 coaches that go to Colne could then be used for the next Colne/Blackpool service before the next train from Blackpool or Preston arrives in Colne and can be used for the next Manchester train and so on.

It's a pain trying to get from Colne to Manchester at the moment, have to get a bus to Nelson or Burnley and change to X43.