Why was the Colne - Skipton line removed and why has it never been put back?

[quantinghome]

There seems to be an assumption by some that reopenings are relatively cheap compared to building on a new alignment. If the line still has tracks in place and sees occasional traffic then that may be true. But even projects like East-West rail where the line is disused (but not formally closed), reinstatement costs are high. It's not just a case of replacing the old tracks; generally the project involves completely rebuilding the line. The only real asset is the earthworks, and even these usually require major renovation, widening or realigning.

So the question to be asked is whether there is an economic case for building a brand new line over a given route. If the answer is yes then build it. If the answer is marginal but there is an old railway alignment then that may give just enough savings on earthwork construction to make it viable.

 

[Jonny]

The economic case has to be scrutinised carefully, sadly for the freight side apart from Rylstone (or is it Swinden) quarry, pretty much everything (i.e not bound for Ilkley or Bradford Forster Square) has to go through Whitehall Junction (Leeds) which is going to be a path-ing nightmare (literally), especially if it then has to go to Castleford. Whereas the Copy Pit route can reach Castleford via Hebden Bridge. Although, if Rylstone can put some freight trains out, then you never know.

 

[Ken H]

The economic case has to be scrutinised carefully, sadly for the freight side apart from Rylstone (or is it Swinden) quarry, pretty much everything (i.e not bound for Ilkley or Bradford Forster Square) has to go through Whitehall Junction (Leeds) which is going to be a path-ing nightmare (literally), especially if it then has to go to Castleford. Whereas the Copy Pit route can reach Castleford via Hebden Bridge. Although, if Rylstone can put some freight trains out, then you never know.

some stone trains from Helwith bridge now the quarry siding has been reinstated
and done forget the flue gas desulphurisation trains from drax to kirby thore

 

[Dr Hoo]

some stone trains from Helwith bridge now the quarry siding has been reinstated
and done forget the flue gas desulphurisation trains from drax to kirby thore

Yes, after the falling away of coal there is again an increasing amount of freight traffic to and from the Aire Valley/Settle & Carlisle that 'has' to cross the Leeds Station approaches on the flat at Whitehall Junction. So all the more reason to avoid sending any freight via a re-instated Colne-Skipton line when it would be less disruptive via Copy Pit.

 

[30907]

so why did they move as far from the train and bus station as possible then? Up the bailey with very few buses.

Quite, hence my use of quotation marks. To be fair, at the time those offices were built (90s?), there was nowhere available near the station.

 

[AndyHudds]

It was mentioned in the TfN board meeting in the 12th although there was no meat on the bones, I think it was just mentioned to keep it visible. Steve Rotheram did comment that Liverpool did need more freight paths trans Pennine, the overall consensus was that they need more paths for freight full stop and this is a long term aim so whether this means this line could be involved in that I don't know. The meeting is available on You Tube for anyone needing a cure for insomnia.

 

[Meerkat]

Long term need for more freight paths is surely a reason to keep doing the TransPennine upgrade even if the expresses later move to NPR, rather than build an expensive long way round

 

[LeylandLen]

Previous threads on this topic locked.
New Tory MP for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham ) wants to make the re-opening of this line a priority.Obviously too early to say anything about cost and funding.

It was on a radio broadcast where they give the aims of prospective aims and plans.

 

[Kettledrum]

interesting - the new electoral map may have changed an awful lot

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I don't agree with Conservatism, but if this MP is prepared to lobby his colleagues in the treasury for funding, I support him in it.

 

[yorkie]

Previous threads on this topic locked.

Wasn't locked; have merged into it.

New Tory MP for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham ) wants to make the re-opening of this line a priority.Obviously too early to say anything about cost and funding.

Can you provide a link to, and quote from, a source please? Thanks

I still think it's unlikely to happen!

 

[snakeeyes]

Going by the cost of the reopening of the Borders Railway, wouldn't this reopening of Colne to Skipton be about £120 million?

 

[Meerkat]

How many platform extensions could you get for £120m (which sounds rather low) rather than waste it on this hobby horse?

 

[Bald Rick]

Going by the cost of the reopening of the Borders Railway, wouldn't this reopening of Colne to Skipton be about £120 million?

No.

Going by the cost of reopening the Borders railway, it would be about £180m, if it was built in 2011-15.

However, given that the earliest it could be built is 2026-30, and that’s if everything went very quickly without a hitch, you need to add 15 years worth of construction inflation. That’s currently running at 3%pa but was 4% earlier this year. For 15 years it’s reasonable to add 50%. Then you need to look at the particular circumstances here, and allow for uncertainty in scope and price inherent for a project that has had no engineering study done for it.

I’ve said before and will say again, it would be around £400m.

 

[6Gman]

Previous threads on this topic locked.
New Tory MP for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham ) wants to make the re-opening of this line a priority.Obviously too early to say anything about cost and funding.

It was on a radio broadcast where they give the aims of prospective aims and plans.

And the new Conservative MP for Leigh wants that town added to the rail system.

And - I suspect - every other new MP has their own pet project for their constituency.

If they all get their way we can expect a huge deficit by 2024 !

 

[duffield]

And the new Conservative MP for Leigh wants that town added to the rail system.

And - I suspect - every other new MP has their own pet project for their constituency.

If they all get their way we can expect a huge deficit by 2024 !

From a position of total ignorance, apart from the fact that I know it exists, is part/all or the Leigh guided busway suitable for rail conversion (and no, I'm not suggesting this is practical, value for money, a good idea etc. - just curious!).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And the new Conservative MP for Leigh wants that town added to the rail system.

Was the original rail route through Leigh built upon embankments/viaducts that were cleared away and has there been much modern development of the town centre section?

 

[Bevan Price]

Was the original rail route through Leigh built upon embankments/viaducts that were cleared away and has there been much modern development of the town centre section?

Between Kenyon Jn & Leigh, a new road occupies part of the railway alignment as far as the site of Pennington station**. There was a long viaduct through Leigh town centre - now demolished (apart from one very small remnant). But the biggest problem is the misguided busway. This roughly follows the rail alignment as far as Ellenbrook - but all bridges have gone, and many parts of the former embankments have been removed, to alter the gradients on the busway.

(** This road then takes over the trackbed of the Pennington to Bolton Great Moor Street line, serving as a by-pass for both Leigh & Atherton)

 

[Bevan Price]

As an afterthought, the (relatively) cheapest way to reconnect Leigh to the rest of the rail network might be a completely new, partly underground, line. This could head either roughly north east, joining the Hindley to Manchester route somewhere between Atherton & Walkden, or roughly south east, joining the Chat Moss route somewhere near either Glazebury, or Astley level crossing.

Another alternative, a "Leigh Parkway" station at a reopened Kenyon Junction, seems less attractive to me, as in the first part of the journey, you would be heading away from Manchester. Also, it would be no use for non-car drivers. Kenyon Junction has no bus services within at least 1 to 1.5 miles from the station site.

 

[158756]

Previous threads on this topic locked.
New Tory MP for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham ) wants to make the re-opening of this line a priority.Obviously too early to say anything about cost and funding.

It was on a radio broadcast where they give the aims of prospective aims and plans.

Slightly strange given that almost all the benefits of this project would seem to be in the Pendle constituency. I wouldn't hold my breath though - Pendle has had a Tory MP since 2010.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

New Tory MP for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham ) wants to make the re-opening of this line a priority. Obviously too early to say anything about cost and funding. It was on a radio broadcast where they give the aims of prospective aims and plans.

Whilst it might well be a priority of the new MP for Burnley, but how much sway will his personal view hold in the Department for Transport?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just as a matter of interest, noting the west of the Pennines Northern problems in running services, have any such Northern service cancellations on the line to Colne occurred and would the Colne to Skipton line have been similarly affected, noting Skipton may well have different answers to the problems being served by different Northern areas.

Also has there been any bus changes to the X43 Manchester to Skipton services proposed?

 

[yorksrob]

No.

Going by the cost of reopening the Borders railway, it would be about £180m, if it was built in 2011-15.

However, given that the earliest it could be built is 2026-30, and that’s if everything went very quickly without a hitch, you need to add 15 years worth of construction inflation. That’s currently running at 3%pa but was 4% earlier this year. For 15 years it’s reasonable to add 50%. Then you need to look at the particular circumstances here, and allow for uncertainty in scope and price inherent for a project that has had no engineering study done for it.

I’ve said before and will say again, it would be around £400m.

If constraction inflation is at 50%, doesn't that mean that the cost of potential alternative projects will increase by 50%, so it's relative anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

And the new Conservative MP for Leigh wants that town added to the rail system.

And - I suspect - every other new MP has their own pet project for their constituency.

If they all get their way we can expect a huge deficit by 2024 !

Considering the slew of road projects we had a few years ago, I don't see why a smattering of rail projects would be any more likely to single-handedly throw us into defecit.

 

[Bald Rick]

If constraction inflation is at 50%, doesn't that mean that the cost of potential alternative projects will increase by 50%, so it's relative anyway.

Alternatives that involve construction, yes. But if those alternatives are cheaper, the gap widens. And if there are alternatives that don’t need construction (say, much improved bus services), then those alternatives look even more attractive.

 

[yorksrob]

Alternatives that involve construction, yes. But if those alternatives are cheaper, the gap widens. And if there are alternatives that don’t need construction (say, much improved bus services), then those alternatives look even more attractive.

I believe I've said before that I don't consider bus services to be an adequate substitute for rail.

Also improved bus services would involve increased subsidy, which we all know is 'bad', whereas construction is capital investment, which is 'good'.

 

[Dr Day]

bus services would involve increased subsidy

And rail services wouldn't??

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe I've said before that I don't consider bus services to be an adequate substitute for rail.

No one is suggesting substituting rail for bus. I’m suggesting improved bus services, with a negligible capital cost and perhaps a small operating subsidy, would be a better alternative than spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a new railway and a much larger operating subsidy (which it would be).

 

[Tobbes]

Skipton - Colne has a near iconic status largely because of the unstinting efforts of SELRAP - and good for them. And if it had not ever closed, then it's hard to see anyone suggesting that it should be closed and lifted now.

But it did close, and @Bald Rick 's suggestion of a £400m bill in 2020 pounds doesn't seem unreasonable, which then begs other questions. Is it the right answer to "where's the best place in the UK to spend an incremental £400m on rail?" or even "where's the best place in the NW of England to spend an incremental £400m on rail?". This also doesn't mean it won't happen - BordersRail exists for purely political ends, and if Skipton - Colne could be a quick win (ie, could construction get underway before 2024?) then it may happen. If you want it, lobby your MPs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This also doesn't mean it won't happen - BordersRail exists for purely political ends, and if Skipton - Colne could be a quick win (ie, could construction get underway before 2024?) then it may happen. If you want it, lobby your MPs.

Let us be realistic rather than euphoric about the Skipton-Colne matter. Sure the areas of Northern England are said to see much in the way of strategic area improvements, but there are other areas than railways and roads also queing up for project funding such as the stated new hospitals and finance for school improvements that have actually been mentioned as part of the new Government programme. Do not confuse matters by making reference to anything north of Hadrians Wall when discussing the subject of this thread.