Will Lincoln ever have better train services?

[tbtc]

South Pennine TPE services are currently very well used east of Sheffiels, indeed on many 170 services a standing load between Sheffield, Meadowhall and Doncaster. Scunthorpe also generates significant business

The services are certainly busy from Sheffield to Doncaster, agreed, since they are a good bit faster than the half hourly Pacer service.

However, I'd estimate that the majority of passengers (in either direction when the train arrives at Sheffield) get off at Sheffield. Whilst I'd keep an hourly service from Sheffield to Cleethorpes, I'm not convinced they all need to come from Manchester. In the same way, I'd keep some service from Sheffield to Manchester, but I'm not convinced they all need to extend to Manchester Airport.

 

[Lincoln]

Is the second point capable of being resolved?
With regard to the flat crossing at Newark, is it not feasible to bring this rather anarchistic railway track layout into the 21st century?

I remember a situation in Altrincham carrying on for years. There was a level crossing, fully gated, in the middle of the town centre, similar to those you find now in Chichester. This protected traffic from the high density electric commuter trains which were ran on a good frequency basis. Then, when the plans for the new town centre were carried out, the traffic delays caused by the level crossing were removed by a new modern road overbridge being constructed as part of the town centre improvements with connecting roads.

The irony from what you have said is that the building of a modern road bypass around Newark has caused difficulties in finding a route for the railway to build a flyover for the flat crossing.

So on one side is the river Trent, and the other is the A46.

See this map. What the map doesn't show you is how the A46 weaves along vertically, making it difficult to find a place to run the railway above/below it.

So it will be a costly exercise to grade separate the Nottingham-Lincoln line from the London-Doncaster one.

 

[Failed Unit]

It must be fairly practicle as the suggestion happens so many times, but I don't know what gradient will be like from the A46 near Newark Castle, the rivers won't be a problem.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It must be fairly practicle as the suggestion happens so many times, but I don't know what gradient will be like from the A46 near Newark Castle, the rivers won't be a problem.

Has a feasibility study by British Railways or any of their successors ever been made into the rail resolution of this problem? We are not talking of a flat crossing concerning two small lines...one of these is the London to Doncaster line.

Please do not quote the problem of the bridge at Selby as being an un-yet resolved problem, as I am well aware of that

 

[YorkshireBear]

With todays engineers we should be able to crack it. I can only suggest taking it under, the river yes while being a problem can be easily dealt with they have been rerouted before and a small rerouting has limited environmental benefits.

 

[Failed Unit]

With todays engineers we should be able to crack it. I can only suggest taking it under, the river yes while being a problem can be easily dealt with they have been rerouted before and a small rerouting has limited environmental benefits.

The gradient will be the problem with this again it will need to be fairly steep to get to Newark Castle, same issue with the road it goes under the A46 and then a fairly steep gradient may be needed to get the line of the ECML, but I am sure this is what network rail proposed a few years back. It must have had some kind of costing, it was the same project that would have reopened the leamside route (wait a second was this railtrack)

My ultimate solution would be to build a station like tamworth and relocate both castle and northgate to the new site. Practical? I doubt it, don't know how parking would work but at least the Lincoln - Nottingham trains could be used to connect with ECML trains. It would be the quickest way for Liecester and Nottingham to get to Scotland. However we are unlikely to even see the bridge for at least 10 years, look how long the planning at Hitchin is taking!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well yeah cos that would really allow connections for lincoln to london that would be fantastic! Lets face it though, not gonna happen. Well i guess it all has to come into consideration. I think ECML could do with a major upgrade, id liek the next franchise to consider infrastructure upgrades.

 

[Aictos]

The gradient will be the problem with this again it will need to be fairly steep to get to Newark Castle, same issue with the road it goes under the A46 and then a fairly steep gradient may be needed to get the line of the ECML, but I am sure this is what network rail proposed a few years back. It must have had some kind of costing, it was the same project that would have reopened the leamside route (wait a second was this railtrack)

My ultimate solution would be to build a station like tamworth and relocate both castle and northgate to the new site. Practical? I doubt it, don't know how parking would work but at least the Lincoln - Nottingham trains could be used to connect with ECML trains. It would be the quickest way for Liecester and Nottingham to get to Scotland. However we are unlikely to even see the bridge for at least 10 years, look how long the planning at Hitchin is taking!

If you really must use a station as a example, why not use Retford?

The wikipedia article on Retford railway station states that in 1965 the flat crossing between the Sheffield to Lincoln Line and the East Coast Main Line was removed and the Sheffield to Lincoln Line lowered to pass under the East Coast Main Line, this introduced the lower level platforms 3 and 4.

So couldn't Network Rail remove the flat crossing at Newark and instead lower the Nottingham to Lincoln line to run under the ECML, if BR could do it in 1965 then I'm sure Network Rail could easily do it in 2011.

It would just mean a blockade at some point to lower the track where the flat crossing is at the moment, the Nottingham services could terminate at Newark Castle, East Coast, Grand Central and Hull Trains could travel via the Joint line and when it's all said and done, you could have a 20 minute frequency to Birmingham/Nottingham which would consist of 1 limited stop service and 2 stoppers.

Everyone's a winner - of course better connections would be the order of the day as well!

 

[Lincoln]

My ultimate solution would be to build a station like tamworth and relocate both castle and northgate to the new site.

That would be fantastic, I would imagine it would finish up being something like Retford with the higher and lower levels. We can only dream!

(Sorry ajax103, didn't read your comment before replying to Failed Unit)

 

[trentside]

Sadly, I can't see this being an option for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the flat crossing is in an awkward location sandwiched between the A46 bridge and the river. The ECML passes onto a viaduct north of the crossing, and the Lincoln to Nottingham line does the same on the west. This makes lowering either line impractical to say the least, and also the re-location of the station difficult. The site itself also wouldn't be great for a station, with limited space and the need to incorporate the spur to allow trains from Lincoln to access the ECML up line, and allow them to call at Northgate. Another issue with the site is it's location next to the sewage works... it can get 'fragrant' there at times!

 

[Tomnick]

If you really must use a station as a example, why not use Retford?

The wikipedia article on Retford railway station states that in 1965 the flat crossing between the Sheffield to Lincoln Line and the East Coast Main Line was removed and the Sheffield to Lincoln Line lowered to pass under the East Coast Main Line, this introduced the lower level platforms 3 and 4.

So couldn't Network Rail remove the flat crossing at Newark and instead lower the Nottingham to Lincoln line to run under the ECML, if BR could do it in 1965 then I'm sure Network Rail could easily do it in 2011.

It would just mean a blockade at some point to lower the track where the flat crossing is at the moment, the Nottingham services could terminate at Newark Castle, East Coast, Grand Central and Hull Trains could travel via the Joint line and when it's all said and done, you could have a 20 minute frequency to Birmingham/Nottingham which would consist of 1 limited stop service and 2 stoppers.

Everyone's a winner - of course better connections would be the order of the day as well!

Retford's diveunder is in Retford though, and Newark's flat crossing is in Newark. Diving under the ECML, as has been suggested, would most likely involve diving also below the level of the adjacent River Trent. Even if you overcome the problems from water ingress into your new cutting (which wouldn't be impossible, but I don't think it's a problem that was faced at Retford), you've still got to somehow get the Midland over the River Trent (which it crosses not too far from the flat crossing - certainly too close to get the railway to a suitable level for a bridge crossing in its current location), with the constraints from the adjacent A46 too.

 

[MCR247]

To be honest Lincolnshire has already lost a big chance of improving it's service. It is criminal that the services were not recast to take advantage of this. Take the Joint line, small tweaks to the timetable could really have improved the connects at Peterborough and Doncaster for ECML and improving the viability of the line. Hopefully when the joint line is upgraded an hourly service from Peterborough - Lincoln could happen. Likewise Grimsby - Newark could have got recast to take advantage of the new timetable.

It is a sad reflection the rail industry can't work together to form decent connection.

The cities loss was really the Birmingham services, people from Lincoln would much rather go to derby and Birmingham than liecester stopping at every shack! Shame it cant be moved to XC. As modern railways states Swinderby is served by too many trains for it's usage. Even with the flat crossing a 153 doing Newark castle - Nottingham stopping a all shacks would at least improve Lincoln - Nottingham. Dont know if this could be done with EMTs fleet BR did it in 40 minutes in the 1980s. BR also alternated the fast service with the stopper, now too many trains stop at all shacks.

You realize that Lincolns service to Birmingham was the all shacks to Leicester and then all shacks to Birmingham don't you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Get Lincoln on to XC.

I'm all in favour of Lincoln getting its Lincoln - Nottingham - Leicester - Birmingham back, although i'm not sure how it would work in the current franchising system...

And why not have some Lincoln - South Wests via Nottingham?

Also Airport - Lincoln via Sheffield - TPE or EMT

..but that is just ridiculous. Especially the first line!

 

[Failed Unit]

You realize that Lincolns service to Birmingham was the all shacks to Leicester and then all shacks to Birmingham don't you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm all in favour of Lincoln getting its Lincoln - Nottingham - Leicester - Birmingham back, although i'm not sure how it would work in the current franchising system...





..but that is just ridiculous. Especially the first line!

In the 1980s every other hour was Newark Castle only, the principle stations via Derby. Admittedly there was all shacks on the balance working. But request stops as well!

Under ct it was Loughborough only on the way to liecester from Nottingham, the shacks were only added when the service was split to replace the independent service.

At one point there were 2 trains per hour under CT the fast one was Newark castle, Nottingham and onwards to Birmingham. In fact when ct took over the Birmingham service was vai Derby for a while. Some trains from Grimsby needed another 153 added at Nottingham. So no the service has got slower and got split at the same time.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
Looking at area when I go past and on Google maps, it doesn't look to be a difficult job to build a flyover at all.

Here's my solution:
1) Wait until the A46 Newark by-pass is upgraded to dual carriageway. (It'll happen evetually now that the rest of the A46 from Leicester - Bingham - Newark is nearing completion.)

2) The A46 bridge over the Nottingham - Lincoln line is already wide enough for the 4 lane road. It gives an idea of the line, ie a new carriageway will be north of the existing road.

3) A largish flyover will need to be built over the Trent and ECML.

4) Build it wider. Make it accomodate 2 lanes of road traffic and 2 railway tracks.

5. Slew the Nottingham - Lincoln line from immediately after the A46 overbridge to climb up to the new bridge. There's about 360m from the overbridge to the start of the exisiting road flyover. To get a 5m bridge height that requires a 1:60 gradient. That's quite achievable. With a harsh but not impossible gradient of 1:30 you could get a 10m rise.

6. The disruption to the ECML will be minimised - the effects of doubling the width of an overbridge does not translate to double the interpution.

7. On the other side of the ECML there is lots more space to bring the railway back to the original line and connect with the existing spur to the ECML.


Simple engineering I think.
Of course, the only thing preventing it is money
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Greenback]

Lincoln probably deserves a better service, but it won't get one for the foreseeable future!

 

[tbtc]

Lincoln probably deserves a better service, but it won't get one for the foreseeable future!

Sadly the same is true of a lot of places

 

[sheff'd victoria]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25946

Following on from my thread about the state of rail travel in Lincolnshire a number of points have been rasied on here from that.

The issue of of travel to Lincoln/Linconshire on a Sunday is poor to say the least

The last train from Lincoln to Sheffield is 2127 ( Mon - Sat ) this is shocking to say Sheffield is only just over 1hr away

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25946

Following on from my thread about the state of rail travel in Lincolnshire a number of points have been rasied on here from that.

The issue of of travel to Lincoln/Linconshire on a Sunday is poor to say the least

The last train from Lincoln to Sheffield is 2127 ( Mon - Sat ) this is shocking to say Sheffield is only just over 1hr away

I am glad that I opened this thread as it shows that nothing much has changed since the time when you made your thread in August 2009..

Anything that keeps the matter to the fore is well worth persevering with,

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Ive just e-mailed Northern Rail over this.

As I said the 2127 is far to early for the last train, with late connections at Retford for the ECML and Worksop for the Robin Hood Line I would have thought that a 2227 would be popped in , this would form of the 2046 departure from Sheffield Midland which at this point only go's as far as Retford

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ive just e-mailed Northern Rail over this.

As I said the 2127 is far to early for the last train, with late connections at Retford for the ECML and Worksop for the Robin Hood Line I would have thought that a 2227 would be popped in , this would form of the 2046 departure from Sheffield Midland which at this point only go's as far as Retford

Is there anyone on the forum who works for a railway organization who might suggest a reason for this to be so? Is it anything to do with having units back at the depot for availability purposes?

 

[tbtc]

Is there anyone on the forum who works for a railway organization who might suggest a reason for this to be so?

I don't think Lincoln's nightlife is *that* buzzing that a half ten is needed - apart from Gainsborough the service doesn't really serve anywhere that local either.

Whilst there's trade between Worksop and Sheffield, its not westbound that late at night either.

I presume it just isn't worth the hassle of running a later service. It may be because the signal box closes or something, but I would't think the Lincoln - Sheffield service is one with much demand late at night (e.g. no Airport trade, no big nightlife)

 

[trentside]

I'd presume the signal boxes from Lincoln to Retford are open all night (except Saturdays?) as there are a number of overnight freight services. Even with this, I'm not sure of the demand for later Lincoln - Sheffield services.

The last arrival into Lincoln is the 23:41 (23:46 on Sundays) from Nottingham. As it runs via Newark Northgate to connect with northbound EC services, it can get quite busy - particularly on Sundays in my experience.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However, I'd estimate that the majority of passengers (in either direction when the train arrives at Sheffield) get off at Sheffield. Whilst I'd keep an hourly service from Sheffield to Cleethorpes, I'm not convinced they all need to come from Manchester. In the same way, I'd keep some service from Sheffield to Manchester, but I'm not convinced they all need to extend to Manchester Airport.

I thought that Sheffield (and its catchment area) was against any reduction of train services to Manchester Airport.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

E-mail from Northern Rail

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

I am sorry that you feel the times of our trains are unsuitable for many passengers. The Department for Transport (DfT) sets the minimum number and frequency of trains that we must run on each line. We then set our timetables to match this standard and exceed it whenever possible. Due to the nature of railway lines, we need to allocate a specific timing for each train to keep them a safe distance apart. This does limit our flexibility in creating our timetables and unfortunately, we are unable to tailor our timetables to suit the needs of every passenger.

We cannot implement the changes you have requested, but I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to look at ways in which you feel we could improve our timetables.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thank you for e-mailing Northern Rail. We now know who are the culprits, according to Northern Rail's reply. I feel that 2011 will not see any new updates to service provision as they do not want anything to occur that might cause detrimental effects on their stated performance target figures.

I note that the last two years of their franchaise is stated to be subject to performance targets being achieved, taking 2013 as the final year of the franchaise.

 

[tbtc]

I thought that Sheffield (and its catchment area) was against any reduction of train services to Manchester Airport.

Ask anyone in Sheffield and they'd say that a reduction in service to Manchester Airport would be a bad thing...

...but offer them an alternative improvement (e.g reduction in service to the Airport, but a more frequent service to Piccadilly) and you'd get a different story.

Why every place in Northern England needs an hourly service to Manchester Airport (when few passengers make more than one or two trips a year to the Airport) is beyond me...

 

[Yew]

E-mail from Northern Rail

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

I am sorry that you feel the times of our trains are unsuitable for many passengers. The Department for Transport (DfT) sets the minimum number and frequency of trains that we must run on each line. We then set our timetables to match this standard and exceed it whenever possible. Due to the nature of railway lines, we need to allocate a specific timing for each train to keep them a safe distance apart. This does limit our flexibility in creating our timetables and unfortunately, we are unable to tailor our timetables to suit the needs of every passenger.

We cannot implement the changes you have requested, but I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to look at ways in which you feel we could improve our timetables.

Oh yes, because its not like any other line in the country runs more than one train an hour on a peice of track. Pretty pathetic response from northern there, even somthing about shortage of rolling stock would be a better excuse

 

[trentside]

It's not just passenger workings on that line though, it's used by quite a number of freight trains, both to the ports at Immingham and to the power stations along the route. They all take up paths, which restricts the number of passenger trains that can operate.

 

[tbtc]

Pretty pathetic response from northern there, even somthing about shortage of rolling stock would be a better excuse

What do you honestly expect them to say?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ask anyone in Sheffield and they'd say that a reduction in service to Manchester Airport would be a bad thing...

...but offer them an alternative improvement (e.g reduction in service to the Airport, but a more frequent service to Piccadilly) and you'd get a different story.

Why every place in Northern England needs an hourly service to Manchester Airport (when few passengers make more than one or two trips a year to the Airport) is beyond me...

The trains as currently run as at the present time offer both of these options of a regular service to Sheffield commuters and holidaymakers. No-one is disputing this fact. Are you saying that certain Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport services should terminate at Manchester Piccadilly to avoid reversal and to make for a quicker turnround in the journey times?

I have heard many comments concerning the importance to people living in the Doncaster and Scunthorpe areas for the current service pattern of the existing First TPE South route to be retained. With regard to the final sentence that you made, if this is the case, why are the train loadings at the levels that they are?

Manchester Airport has a vigourous marketing strategy to attract as many people as possible to fly from its airport with its two runways and the current provision of rail services fits nicely within its strategy. In the Northern Hub document, there is mention of a fourth platform there.

I see no call for any reduction of the number of National Express coaches that operate into Manchester Airport interchange, that carry high loadings.