Will we ever see any more new stretches of motorway in the UK?

[ABB125]

There's some quite spectacular civil engineering

And some even more spectacular cost overruns/poor project management!

that's a good opportunity to sort the A1 and get rid of that absurdly dangerous entrance into a boat yard which for the benefit of those who aren't familiar with it is from the *right hand lane* of the northbound carriageway

I think that's being fixed as part of the A428 dualling scheme, but I'm not 100% sure

 

[A0]

I disagree - at certain times of day / week it can be considerably quicker on those particular journeys by train, and the same applies for almost any journey that makes use of the M6 between Coventry and Knutsford, the western side of the M25, the M42, and the M4 east of Reading. Of course it depends on your precise origin / destination with respect to relative journey times, and how many people are making the journey together, and what you need to take.

The route has long since been selected, albeit not confirmed through formal consultation or a consents process. (Which means ot could change). I remember looking at the consultation docs for the A1(M) around the west side of Grantham 30 years ago.

The M6 between Coventry & Knutsford has a number of practical alternatives though - the M6 toll being one, using the M1 to Donnington and then the A50 to Stoke being another.

The M25 is a problem - but I'd contend the east side is worse than the west, not least because there really are no practical alternatives - whereas at least with the west side there are some alternative options.

I think that's being fixed as part of the A428 dualling scheme, but I'm not 100% sure

I believe that to be the case as well - the point remains it's an outrageously dangerous junction on a quick road and it's pretty inexcusable that such a thing still exists on the main road network in 2023.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised - the A43 built in the 1990s has 4 dangerous at level junctions between Northampton and Towcester - so even quite recently ridiculously unsafe junctions were still being built on trunk roads.

 

[snowball]

You’d probably be best off building a completely new offline bypass for that stretch of the A1, passing to the east of Biggleswade and St Neots before rejoining at the A14 interchange.

When a Baldock to Alconbury section of A1(M) was proposed in the 1990s it was generally west of the present A1.

The A428 Black Cat to Caxton Gibbet scheme, which recently overcame a legal challenge and so is likely to go ahead, includes a 3-level junction with the A1, probably committing the A1 to continue to go through the present Black Cat location for the next several decades.

 

[A0]

When a Baldock to Alconbury section of A1(M) was proposed in the 1990s it was generally west of the present A1.

The A428 Black Cat to Caxton Gibbet scheme, which recently overcame a legal challenge and so is likely to go ahead, includes a 3-level junction with the A1, probably committing the A1 to continue to go through the present Black Cat location for the next several decades.

Bit in bold - that isn't really a problem though. You can't run further east because that would cause a huge problem through Sandy. Some of the places like Wyboston which have roads facing out onto the A1 would need some changes, but TBH even if *all* the affected houses were subject to a compulsory purchase, it would be miniscule compared with the numbers HS2 has taken.....

 

[Anonymous10]

A465: section 5 and 6 Dowlais Top to Hirwaun | GOV.WALES

We are converting the A465 from Dowlais Top to Hirwaun to 2 lanes in each direction.

www.gov.wales

There's some quite spectacular civil engineering, especially further east. A bit of a showpiece for the contractors and their engineers. Much more interesting from that point of view than the cancelled M4 relief road near Newport would have been.

I agree being originally from there it is spectacular.

 

[bramling]

I disagree - I think both are eminently "do-able" - the problem is between Peterborough and Doncaster they don't serve anywhere particularly large. And whilst the M1 does seem to 'shadow' the A1, the reality is it does so about 40 miles to the west (if you look at the distance of the A14 from Huntingdon to Catthorpe) - yes that narrows as you head further north - but from Peterborough for example, you're not going to head over to the M1 near Leicester to head north.

That's not to say the A1 is easy to upgrade - it isn't from Baldock going north, it's not too difficult until you reach Biggleswade where quite alot of work would be needed, but Biggleswade is growing, so there's a pretty good case for upgrading the A1 and eliminating the roundabouts on it where there is 'east-west' traffic vying with 'north-south' traffic. Biggleswade - Sandy, the challenges are Lower Caldecote and Beeston. Now the Caldecote area has been touted for large scale housing on a few occasions - so maybe that will provide the opportunity to sort out the A1 - Beeston's trickier but a further bypass of Sandy to the west (can't do to the east because of the nature reserve) might be the solution there. Next you've got Tempsford where again a load of housing is planned, plus east-west railway, so that's a good opportunity to sort the A1 and get rid of that absurdly dangerous entrance into a boat yard which for the benefit of those who aren't familiar with it is from the *right hand lane* of the northbound carriageway. After that you've got a couple of villages which are probably easily sorted and then you're at the A1M at Alconbury.

I don’t doubt that it’s feasible, but I think it would stall at the political stage. Probably a classic case of people wanting the improved road, but not wanting the disruption that would come with delivering it, especially as there would likely have to be some amount of property acquisition.

It’s already very conspicuous that the five remaining roundabouts between London and Berwick are all on the Baldock to Huntingdon section, and whilst Black Cat now seems like it’s finally going to go, I don’t think there’s any real plans for the remainder. We can’t even get the S-bend south of Buckden smoothed out, and there’s still plenty of at-grade junctions on this section as well.

The Home Counties never seem to be a priority for this sort of thing, the politicians seem much happier providing gold-plated A1(M) in North Yorkshire!

If I were spending money I’d sort the roundabouts at the southern end and do a few small schemes to get rid of the worst flat junctions, and I’d do motorway on the Doncaster to Ferrybridge section (which I always find is generally the worst part of a journey up the A1 due to the very high number of HGVs). If there was still money to spend then next priority would eliminating as many flat junctions as possible between Peterborough and Doncaster.

Oh and 3 lanes plus a hard shoulder between Welwyn and Stevenage, but I’m resigned to never seeing that in my lifetime!

 

[Bald Rick]

The M6 between Coventry & Knutsford has a number of practical alternatives though - the M6 toll being one, using the M1 to Donnington and then the A50 to Stoke being another.

Oh trust me, over the years I’ve done pretty much every practical diversion on every section. None of them are quicker than the M6 if it has no congestion.

The M25 is a problem - but I'd contend the east side is worse than the west, not least because there really are no practical alternatives - whereas at least with the west side there are some alternative options.

congestion and delays are worse on the west side.


I suppose the key point in all of this is that whilst you and I are comfortable with diverting off the obvious route, very many people are not. Hence why the severe congestion occurs, and why some people will choose to avoid it by taking the train.

 

[MotCO]

I suppose the key point in all of this is that whilst you and I are comfortable with diverting off the obvious route, very many people are not.

I'm never sure whether it is better to stay on the motorway in the traffic jam, or use Google Maps or Waze to find an alternative route. The alternative routes are often slower, and probably everone using satnav is following the same route, by which time the congestion on the motorway may have cleared - that certainly happened to me recently going north on the A1(M).

 

[paul1609]

I agree. The A1(M) I believe is the only English motorway which still has discontinuous sections

Technically I think you can add the M25. It becomes the A282 at Junction 30 and doesn't regain it's motorway status until Junction 2.

 

[zwk500]

Technically I think you can add the M25. It becomes the A282 at Junction 30 and doesn't regain it's motorway status until Junction 2.

It's continuous, just circuitous.

 

[paul1609]

It's continuous, just circuitous.

Its an orbital motorway, as such its not continuous!

 

[zwk500]

Its an orbital motorway, as such its not continuous!

The Motorway is in 1 continuous piece, even if it isn't complete. It's not discontinuous in the way the A1(M) is. From j2 to j30 the Motorway does not end. Although I will grant you there is a Turn-off-to-Stay on at j5.

 

[87 027]

The original A282 Dartford crossing (tunnel) predates the M25 by a number of years and is deliberately classified as a trunk road rather than a motorway so that (some) otherwise prohibited local traffic is permitted to use it. Travelling clockwise the crossing feels like a motorway throughout. Travelling anti-clockwise less so as you approach the tunnels

 

[paul1609]

The original A282 Dartford crossing (tunnel) predates the M25 by a number of years and is deliberately classified as a trunk road rather than a motorway so that (some) otherwise prohibited local traffic is permitted to use it. Travelling clockwise the crossing feels like a motorway throughout. Travelling anti-clockwise less so as you approach the tunnels

When the Dartford Tunnel opened in 1963 it was only a single carriageway and there were no motorways planned at either end so it was a bit of a no-brainer that it was the A282. It didn't even become a dual carriageway until 1980. Neither of the road tunnels would ever have met motorway standards.

 

[PTR 444]

When the Dartford Tunnel opened in 1963 it was only a single carriageway and there were no motorways planned at either end so it was a bit of a no-brainer that it was the A282. It didn't even become a dual carriageway until 1980. Neither of the road tunnels would ever have met motorway standards.

Furthermore, the bridge didn’t even open until 1991, five years after completion of the M25. In the intervening years, traffic on the D3M motorway and surrounding arterial roads had to funnel in to a single D2 bore, with no prospect of using the opposite carriageway unless one of the bores was closed.

 

[stuu]

Neither of the road tunnels would ever have met motorway standards.

A pedant points out that motorway is a legal status and has absolutely nothing to do with what the road looks like

 

[jfollows]

A pedant points out that motorway is a legal status and has absolutely nothing to do with what the road looks like

Such as the former A6144(M) (https://www.pathetic.org.uk/former/a6144m/)

 

[paul1609]

The Motorway is in 1 continuous piece, even if it isn't complete. It's not discontinuous in the way the A1(M) is. From j2 to j30 the Motorway does not end. Although I will grant you there is a Turn-off-to-Stay on at j5.

In true flat earth tradition there is an element down here in Kent that will tell you that the northern portion of the Sevenoaks bypass while redesignated as a motorway has never been changed from the A21 so at Polhill overbridge the M25 ends and you join the A21(M). You then leave the A21(M) at Junction 5 to join the western portion of the M25. Google Maps suggests that this may not be as silly an argument as it seems.

 

[zwk500]

In true flat earth tradition there is an element down here in Kent that will tell you that the northern portion of the Sevenoaks bypass while redesignated as a motorway has never been changed from the A21 so at Polhill overbridge the M25 ends and you join the A21(M). You then leave the A21(M) at Junction 5 to join the western portion of the M25. Google Maps suggests that this may not be as silly an argument as it seems.

That section is undeniably part of the M25 at that point. It may or may not be concurrent with the A21((M)?) under motorway regulations, but that doesn't mean that 1. The M25 designation disappears or that 2. Motorway status is suspended.

 

[MotCO]

In true flat earth tradition there is an element down here in Kent that will tell you that the northern portion of the Sevenoaks bypass while redesignated as a motorway has never been changed from the A21 so at Polhill overbridge the M25 ends and you join the A21(M). You then leave the A21(M) at Junction 5 to join the western portion of the M25. Google Maps suggests that this may not be as silly an argument as it seems.

Expand the Google Map view, and the anti-clockwise lane is labelled A21, while the clockwise lane is labelled M25! https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...2088347!4d-0.0584818!16s/g/1thmdwfh?entry=ttu

In reality, the A21 ends at the Hewett's roundabout, and recommences south of the M25. I recall when the M25 was being built, that the A21 went down what is now shown as the A224, but at the Polhill bridge, the southbound A21 joined what is now the M25. (Happy to be corrected). So at one time, the A21 was following the route of the future M25, and maybe this is where the confusion has arisen.

 

[PsychoMouse]

Always thought there could be a motorway joining the M50/M5 junction to the A46 at Stratford and turning that whole stretch to the M69 into a motorway. I believe the original plan however was to join the M50 with the M42 at Solihull.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe the original plan however was to join the M50 with the M42 at Solihull.

That was indeed the plan (a long time ago)

 

[ABB125]

Always thought there could be a motorway joining the M50/M5 junction to the A46 at Stratford and turning that whole stretch to the M69 into a motorway. I believe the original plan however was to join the M50 with the M42 at Solihull.

I can't sort a link at the moment unfortunately, but Google "pathetic motorways strensham"

 

[zwk500]

I can't sort a link at the moment unfortunately, but Google "pathetic motorways strensham"

Tada: https://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/strensham_solihull_motorway/

 

[RichJF]

Expand the Google Map view, and the anti-clockwise lane is labelled A21, while the clockwise lane is labelled M25! https://www.google.com/maps/place/South+Godstone,+Godstone+RH9+8LB/@51.3036823,0.1530355,17z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x4875f9ba8497ba21:0x18738470c4199667!8m2!3d51.2088347!4d-0.0584818!16s/g/1thmdwfh?entry=ttu

In reality, the A21 ends at the Hewett's roundabout, and recommences south of the M25. I recall when the M25 was being built, that the A21 went down what is now shown as the A224, but at the Polhill bridge, the southbound A21 joined what is now the M25. (Happy to be corrected). So at one time, the A21 was following the route of the future M25, and maybe this is where the confusion has arisen.

The old A21 crossed over the route of the current M25 where the TCB label is & then through the small bit of concrete to the north of the modern A224 on the map...

 

[eldomtom2]

No evidence to support that - increased congestion hasn't lead to an increase in rail use - it's just lead to increased congestion.

That it's extremely difficult to build your way out of congestion is so well established to have become cliche.

 

[MotCO]

The old A21 crossed over the route of the current M25 where the TCB label is & then through the small bit of concrete to the north of the modern A224 on the map...

View attachment 139692

If you mean the Otford turn-off, and then turn right onto London Road to lead into Dunton Green past the Rose & Crown, then this road is not labelled as the A21 either on the maps or on roadsigns. The road through Dunton Green is the A224.

 

[paul1609]

The conspiracy theory for what its worth is that when the M26 opened in 1980 the A21 Sevenoaks Bypass was given motorway status between the turning for Dunton Green and the Junction for the A25. This was because at that time to stay on the A21 you had to be in the outside 2 lanes whilst lane 1 became the M25 Westbound.
In the anti clockwise direction traffic to the Dartford Crossing was routed on the M26 to junction 1 then via the A20, M20 to Junction 3 of the m25. As a consequence the turn off at Junction 5 northbound was signed A21 Bromley, London SE. This situation continued until 1986 when the m25 was opened between the end of the Sevenoaks bypass and Junction 3.
The old A21 north of the Dunton Green turn off and through Sevenoaks became a County Road at that time and Kent officially re-numbered it A224.
The theory and rumour is that the A21 has never been officially renumbered so about 2 miles north of Junction 5 and the continuation south to the A25 Junction officially remains the A21(M). There are no signs to this effect and it has no practical effect whatsoever. Because of the planning history Junction 5 of the M25 is a bit of an abortion anyway where you have to turn off in both directions to remain on the M25 and when northbound on the A21(M?) in the nearside lane on my motorbike I suddenly find myself in Lane 3 of the M25.

 

[MotCO]

Because of the planning history Junction 5 of the M25 is a bit of an abortion anyway where you have to turn off in both directions to remain on the M25 and when northbound on the A21(M?) in the nearside lane on my motorbike I suddenly find myself in Lane 3 of the M25.

This is because the M26 was to be part of an outer motorway ringroad, and thus eastbound, the M25 to M26 was to be the main route. The left turn was to leave the M25. However, the outer motorway ringroad plans never came to fruition, hence the strange junction layout.

 

[stuu]

This is because the M26 was to be part of an outer motorway ringroad, and thus eastbound, the M25 to M26 was to be the main route. The left turn was to leave the M25. However, the outer motorway ringroad plans never came to fruition, hence the strange junction layout.

That's not quite right. The Southern M25/M26 was part of the proposed Ringway 4. Ringway 3 would have run further in, and the eastern side was built between Bromley and Dartford. The southern section of it was cancelled, so the section between the M20 and M26 was added as a quick fix, leading to the bodge we have now