Will you let me off a few pence?

[Chapeltom]

I sometimes board the train with just the fare I need (a trip to the cash machine for another £10 note is not something I like to do!), but I'm absolutely paranoid I'll lose my money on route to the station sometimes. Luckily, I've never lost money on way to the station. But I'd be really really embarrassed if I was short and probably get a ticket so far with what I had, abandon journey and go home! I once did lose a ticket though on a night out after Uni (not knowing till I got on the train! And halfway home!) I was penniless, aside from about £1.50 in mixed change, I was lucky there was no inspection on the 25 minute journey. I'd have taken a UPFN happily though had I been challenged.

I can empathise with those who are a few pennies short, and yes empathise with people who are drunk, its ridiculously easy to lose something under the influence. But I once saw a guy board at an unstaffed station near Wigan late night and had absolutely nothing on him, he got UPFNed I think. It took the guard ages to fill the form out anyway. He may or may not have been genuine but feel sorry for rail staff who come across those who are short, and have to make decisions as to whether they are genuine. Whether to let them carry on a few pence short, UPFN or MG11 them.

In my job, where I've worked for nearly 9 years in a shop, restaurant (and we sell ice-cream as well), I have been known to yet people off say £1 off a £10 bill when its busy and a 2-3 pounds max on anything higher. But if the customer has been confrontational/rude about it, I may decide to refer them to the boss, if they have been pleasant I will always turn a blind eye. I don't like confrontation though and would have someone go without problems than make them pay in full if they clearly don't have it in cash, drag the boss in, see them dispute the bill (which 99.99%) of the time is right and see an argument! However, with not having proper tills, a bit of goodwill does usually go unnoticed. If were quiet or the boss is doing the bill, we insist the customer pay in full. Only about 10 times in all those years have I seen people fall short and I've had others deliberately short change and walk off, which you can't do on a train! Once, about 2 summers back a bloke paid substantially under when we really busy and he knew I knew what he'd done instantly, and he disappeared very quickly, so I instantly told the boss who had been near by anyway and next time the bloke walked past an hour later with me not there, he was approached (my boss recognized him) and told him if he didn't pay, the police would be called, he paid up pretty instantly!!

At least for staff, in a way on trains you can't run off too easily and can often deal with people. As can happen in a business in a tourist area like where I work! Some can just literally leg it over a pound short on an ice cream bill which is absolutely pathetic really!

 

[A0wen]

Exactly. And if TfL think it's worthwhile to pay the transaction charge on £1.35 bus fares rather than deal with cash,* I'm sure TOCs do too.

* They now accept contactless credit/debit cards on buses

Well, it's likely to be a transaction charge of 1 or 2 pence - which is probably less costly overall than the handling charge of cash - when you need someone to count it all up, bank it and the associated risk of holding it.

Handling cash is high risk for large organisations -theft by employees is easier (sad but true), it's a security risk in that anywhere which holds or is handling large quantities of cash is attractive to the criminal fraternity and you've even got no shortage of fake coinage and notes in circulation. Cards on the other hand are authorised with Chip & Pin - unless the retailer fails to capture the Pin as part of the transaction, the bank will pay them. Not sure what the position is with contactless to be fair - I suspect the card issuers have done a deal, on the basis the transactions are low value and therefore inherently less risky - thieves and fraudsters tend to go on shopping sprees with hot cards until they get stopped......

 

[reb0118]

For ontrain staff there is an official way to deal with passengers who are short of funds by a small amount. This can also apply if you can not give the correct change - e.g. if the fare was £5.10 and the passenger has only a £5 or £10 note but you have no coinage in change

Set up the ticket as normal. Select excess fares. Select change of ticket type - input the figure that the passenger is short and 5x zero as the ticket number. The ticket should now be produced with the actual ammount that the passenger has paid you on it so you will therefore balance.

Where the ticket states valid with ticket number..... input an asterisk (*) and then state on the back "insufficient funds/balance to pay xxx" or "no change available/balance to pay xxx" also print your name and depot on the back too.

Do not issue a return ticket unless the passenger has offered more than the single fare. An TIR form can be raised if there is a significant difference between the actual fare and the sum offered.

This is taken from my Ticket Examiners Handbook.

 

[jon0844]

I would expect contact less cards are zero risk to merchants able to take them.

But what of the cards set to require a PIN entry every nn number of taps without having made at least one normal C&P transaction (with PIN)?

If you boarded a bus, you could find it rejected unless TfL has got a way of guaranteeing it will work? If so, there's scope for fraud there but I guess a) it's pretty small and a thief would be on CCTV and b) the bus presumably has a way of downloading a black list every night so the fraudster doesn't gain much.

 

[wintonian]

I would expect contact less cards are zero risk to merchants able to take them.

But what of the cards set to require a PIN entry every nn number of taps without having made at least one normal C&P transaction (with PIN). If you boarded a bus, you could find it rejected unless TfL has got a way of guaranteeing it will work?

Maybe they would send a bill the the cardholders address?

 

[A0wen]

I can empathise with those who are a few pennies short, and yes empathise with people who are drunk, its ridiculously easy to lose something under the influence. But I once saw a guy board at an unstaffed station near Wigan late night and had absolutely nothing on him, he got UPFNed I think. It took the guard ages to fill the form out anyway. He may or may not have been genuine but feel sorry for rail staff who come across those who are short, and have to make decisions as to whether they are genuine. Whether to let them carry on a few pence short, UPFN or MG11 them.

Sorry, I don't empathise with them.

Serious question, how many people do you know who go out for the evening with just a small amount of cash on them?

Whenever I'm in a pub, loads of people seem to be paying with credit / debit cards - rare 5 years ago and unheard of 10 years ago, unless you were buying a meal - yet it seems very common now.

On that basis, most people will have at least one debit / credit card on them which could be used to pay for a train fare - alternatively, buy your train fare before you go drinking.... that way you're guaranteed your train home.

 

[telstarbox]

OT but punters who pay for two pints with chip and pin on a busy Friday night need to have a word with themselves.

 

[Lrd]

alternatively, buy your train fare before you go drinking.... that way you're guaranteed your train home.

Exactly, why spend so much money getting hammered and then not being able to pay to get home. I always make sure I put a spare £2.50 in another pocket for the bus home or just keep partying till the morning :P

Most people will ask just to save themselves a few pence and if they get away with it then how much money will they save over time? Definitely tens if not hundreds of pounds, which the companies whose services they have used has lost.

 

[Chapeltom]

Sorry, I don't empathise with them.

Serious question, how many people do you know who go out for the evening with just a small amount of cash on them?

Whenever I'm in a pub, loads of people seem to be paying with credit / debit cards - rare 5 years ago and unheard of 10 years ago, unless you were buying a meal - yet it seems very common now.

On that basis, most people will have at least one debit / credit card on them which could be used to pay for a train fare - alternatively, buy your train fare before you go drinking.... that way you're guaranteed your train home.

I do empathise with people, as I am/i was one of these people who loses/lost things very easily! Or was at least (lost nothing in about 8 months!) Keys, phone, wallet, railcard, driving licence as I.D (I'm only 20 so need it for pubs), bank card, train ticket, you name it I've lost it, drink or not, on a train or elsewhere. I once lost 4 bank cards in a month! I can empathise with those who lose things, those who are genuine. Those who have no cash on them in particular, no sympathy.

I always use cash machines and rarely use my card. I don't think I've every bought a pint with a card, seems a bit silly really. Only use my card online or on larger purchases, that's where its useful or for withdrawing money out!

I sometimes go out with a tenner when I know there's cash points nearby, and get out cash when I need it, no point drawing 20 quid out to go and lose it! Been there, done that.

I don't understand these people who never carry cash round with them! Those who insist on paying for a five pound bill with a card. Where I work, we have no card machine due to the cost of it. Trying to pay for two coffees on a credit card, now that does make me laugh. I carry both, 99% of the time!

 

[A0wen]

I do empathise with people, as I am/i was one of these people who loses/lost things very easily! Or was at least (lost nothing in about 8 months!) Keys, phone, wallet, railcard, driving licence as I.D (I'm only 20 so need it for pubs), bank card, train ticket, you name it I've lost it, drink or not, on a train or elsewhere. I once lost 4 bank cards in a month! I can empathise with those who lose things, those who are genuine. Those who have no cash on them in particular, no sympathy.

I always use cash machines and rarely use my card. I don't think I've every bought a pint with a card, seems a bit silly really. Only use my card online or on larger purchases, that's where its useful or for withdrawing money out!

I sometimes go out with a tenner when I know there's cash points nearby, and get out cash when I need it, no point drawing 20 quid out to go and lose it! Been there, done that.

I don't understand these people who never carry cash round with them! Those who insist on paying for a five pound bill with a card. Where I work, we have no card machine due to the cost of it. Trying to pay for two coffees on a credit card, now that does make me laugh. I carry both, 99% of the time!

But, are you saying if you got on a train with both cash and card to find you didn't have enough cash for the fare that you'd try to get the ticket seller to 'give you a discount' or would you simply offer your card as an alternative method of payment?

 

[BestWestern]

Just to add my tuppence worth... Oh wait, I'm a bit short - can we just call it a penny's worth?!

Sorry... Anyway, I will sometimes allow people 20p or so, I must just be a charitable sort of chap! I always pay in straight, so if I've let someone off a few pennies it comes from my own pocket I suppose, but equally if I find 20p sat on a seat at the end of the trip it goes into the float. I have no idea exactly how much is in my float right now, I will admit that it is dipped most days for tea/coffee/cake, and I top it up when I need to - having said that, there is always a sensible amount in there and I don't condone those come to work with a fiver and about 20p in copper coins!

I know some like to keep things exact, and that is absolutely fine, and indeed is the correct way of doing things. But I've always found my method works just fine for me!

 

[maniacmartin]

Passenger/customer here:

Chapeltom, if I may offer the opposite view:

I carry cash in notes only (always between £20 and £40), and also cards. I do not carry coins if I can help it as they weigh me down, jangle in my pocket and just accumulate. If I end up with coins, I'll spend them ASAP to get rid of them. Therefore if I can pay by card in any situation, then I will, except if its fiddly, timeconsuming or costs me to do so. I also earn airmiles with a card which I don't when paying with cash. I've put 1p on card before, after feeding a load of small change to a self service till at Sainsbury's (good way to get rid of it) and being a penny short. I didn't want to break into a note and end up with £9.99 of heavy change!

I find it very hard to understand how people can get themselves into a situation whereby they have no card or cash on them for a train home. So much for personal responsibility.

As a final insurance policy, I also keep a blank cheque from my cheque book in my wallet, in case for some reason all my cards (from different banks) decline and my cash runs out. Out of curiosity, would any of you accept a cheque for a ticket if the passenger has no other means to pay?

 

[BestWestern]

POut of curiosity, would any of you accept a cheque for a ticket if the passenger has no other means to pay?

Yep, cheques are valid and thus we are required to accept them, so far as I know anyway. Never had one as far as I recall though!

 

[mrmartin]

I must say it is ironic that Northern are issuing these fines.

The amount of times I have been on carlisle to newcastle trains and the conductor completely runs out of change, generally requiring him running up and down the train hoping someone is paying with 'exact' money only to find out noone has it and having to overcharge people is ridiculous.

 

[island]

I would expect contact less cards are zero risk to merchants able to take them.

But what of the cards set to require a PIN entry every nn number of taps without having made at least one normal C&P transaction (with PIN)?

If you boarded a bus, you could find it rejected unless TfL has got a way of guaranteeing it will work? If so, there's scope for fraud there but I guess a) it's pretty small and a thief would be on CCTV and b) the bus presumably has a way of downloading a black list every night so the fraudster doesn't gain much.

I don't know if they have a special arrangement, but if not, bus drivers can issue UPFNs.

OT but punters who pay for two pints with chip and pin on a busy Friday night need to have a word with themselves.

I tend to disagree. It can be logical with cashback cards etc.

Yep, cheques are valid and thus we are required to accept them, so far as I know anyway. Never had one as far as I recall though!

Most TOCs stopped accepting personal cheques on 30 June 2011 and now only accept company cheques for season tickets, if anything at all.

 

[DJ737]

G'day

What's the policy on UK trains for accepting travellers cheques from overseas tourists?

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[barrykas]

What's the policy on UK trains for accepting travellers cheques from overseas tourists?

Perfectly acceptable at stations, backed by a valid passport. You can overpay, and be given change as necessary.

 

[BestWestern]

I don't know if they have a special arrangement, but if not, bus drivers can issue UPFNs.

I tend to disagree. It can be logical with cashback cards etc.

Most TOCs stopped accepting personal cheques on 30 June 2011 and now only accept company cheques for season tickets, if anything at all.

Ah, I had a feeling after I posted that, but I thought I'd wait and see if somebody corrected me! I vaguely recall something about it now, but to be honest we never see/saw them anyhow. It's still on the Avantix though I think...

 

[reb0118]

I believe that booking offices have been instructed to no longer accept cheques for general sales, however, on train staff have NOT been instructed NOT to accept them - a double negative!

I think as we are the last line of defence then if we decline a cheque sale then there is a good chance that we would lose the revenue completely. Whereas the cheque may not bounce and if it does we have a paper tail to follow - in Scotland knowingly passing a duff cheque is quite a serious matter.

I just wish we would do the same with the cards that decline - i.e. just key the number in and if the bank subsequently refuses to pay out then we aggressively pursue the passenger for the fare before selling the debt to a collection agency.

 

[barrykas]

Ah, I had a feeling after I posted that, but I thought I'd wait and see if somebody corrected me! I vaguely recall something about it now, but to be honest we never see/saw them anyhow. It's still on the Avantix though I think...

ATW, East Coast, FCC, Hull Trains, TPE, Grand Central, London Overground and Scotrail are all listed in The Manual as not accepting cheques at all, with most of the rest only accepting company cheques.

There is an exception to the rule, in that you should be able to pay by cheque on train or at your destination if that's the only method of payment you've got available, though check for local instructions!

Cheers,

Barry

 

[district]

At my work, at the start of the shift we count a £100 float. This is then cashed down in our presence at the end of the shift and any shortfall of more than £1 is a disciplinary matter.

Once a man asked me to let him off 12p or so. I told him I couldn't, and he huffed as if finding 12p was the greatest imposition!

 

[island]

I think as we are the last line of defence then if we decline a cheque sale then there is a good chance that we would lose the revenue completely. Whereas the cheque may not bounce and if it does we have a paper tail to follow - in Scotland knowingly passing a duff cheque is quite a serious matter.

There is something in The Manual about cheques being accepted subject to local instructions where travel has already taken place.

Scots law on cheques is pretty odd, in that if you bounce a cheque the funds in the account can be attached (frozen) until either someone pays in enough for the cheque to clear, the drawer obtains the returned cheque back from the payee and hands it into the bank, or the drawee receives a letter from the payee stating it has no further interest in the cheque.

 

[Starmill]

I got let off 10p once without asking when I had £1.45 for a £1.55 fare (an excess, before you ask where the fares are so low) and a £10 note.

My local return fare is £1.15 into Manchester (Y-P discount). I was once let off 5p when I had only a £5 note for a ticket that had just been issued to me (and I paid in full for) that I got swapped for one from another station (which was a brisk 20 min walk away) whence the return fare was 5p more after the train had been cancelled.

And I must say those were some gross generalisations about teenagers out shopping. I cannot speak for the girls, nor those who have no choice but to bus it, but my parents would NEVER pick me up from ANYWHERE without an excellent reason like... from hospital or something. I guess that's an advantage of using a train/tram - as I have been penniless in the past but for my return ticket, where this option tends to be unavailable for the bus.


I guess that's the modern miracle of a debit card!

PS. Sorry if I missed it, but under what circumstances does a guard/ticket clerk end up with a surplus!? The only situation I can think of is someone whose fare is, say £4.95 and they pay with a fiver and don't want 5p.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surplus and loss is usually just that a clerk can't account for the difference between what money they have and what money they should have. There is usually a way to account for pretty much everything else (including 'money left on counter'). The discrepancy could be as simple as not giving out the right change at some point during the day, or might even just be a typo (entering £5.10 on the shift sheet instead of £5.15 for example).

 

[snail]

Serious question, how many people do you know who go out for the evening with just a small amount of cash on them?

I was behind someone in a petrol station yesterday trying to pay £2 with their debit card, after paying for fuel with a fuel card. It was declined twice. They only had £1 in change, the till operator told them to pay next time they were in (I presume the person was a regular).

I know I sometimes run out of small change but to go out with less than £1 on me I would never do.

 

[Deerfold]

I was behind someone in a petrol station yesterday trying to pay £2 with their debit card, after paying for fuel with a fuel card. It was declined twice. They only had £1 in change, the till operator told them to pay next time they were in (I presume the person was a regular).

Also unusual as most service stations have a minumum delivery of 2 or 5 litres.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OT but punters who pay for two pints with chip and pin on a busy Friday night need to have a word with themselves.

Rather judgemental!

If the system the pub has is one of the quicker ones (or a wavepay) it can be quicker than giving change. And card companies are trying to encourage people to use cards for smaller payments.

Certainly a good way of keeping track of how much your night in the pub cost.

 

[reb0118]

Certainly a good way of keeping track of how much your night in the pub cost.

I'd rather not know!

When out drinking I take cash and when it is gone I go home. (unless there are single women there & I think I'm in with a chance........)

 

[island]

Also unusual as most service stations have a minumum delivery of 2 or 5 litres.

Not sure where you come to that conclusion given that the £2 was not for fuel.

 

[Deerfold]

Not sure where you come to that conclusion given that the £2 was not for fuel.

Yes, I misread that one. I incorrectly read it as they'd tried to pay for fuel with a fuel card.

 

[6Gman]

The need for the cash to balance at shift end used to cause problems at Shrewsbury. Guards would not take EDMUs to Abbey Foregate if they were still carrying money as they could drop change in climbing down from units.

So, the units had to sit in a platform for 25 minutes while the Guard paid in, or guards who had already paid in had to be found.