Without additional funding from government there is a real risk to the survival of Eurostar

[DavidCarbonis]

It also depends on the nature of the business conducted. Those involving physical goods and certain areas of the service sector will definitely see a decrease, whilst other parts of the service/industrial sector which don't involve physical goods will probably remain roughly the same I suspect.

 

[MotCO]

While some of the decrease may be temporary,

There was a lot of stocking up prior to 31st December to avoid any issues with a potential No Deal. Therefore it will take a little while for this to work its way through, alongside the hiatius caused by new paperwork, processes etc.

 

[Chester1]

This assumes that travel between London/SE England and northern France/Benelux will eventually return to pre-Covid levels.

However, the extraordinary circumstances of Covid have coincided with the long-term change of Brexit. This will reduce business travel between the UK and the EU, particularly to/from Brussels, the EU capital and one of Eurostar's principal destinations. Brexit will also impede travel for non-EU tourists (including UK citizens) due to the requirement for Schengen visas or visa-waivers (an odd term as I presume they are just a different/simpler form of visa).

The need to retain Eurostar is lessened post Brexit now that the EU considers the UK to be a third country, and hardly a friendly one. When countries disengage with one another, international travel between them tends to decline. One example is the reduction in passenger rail services across the EU's eastern frontier, between the Baltic states/Poland and Russia/Byelorussia, over the last 30 years.

All the above weakens any case for additional funding from the UK government to mitigate the risk to the survival of Eurostar.

A visa waiver means you fill in a short form on a website, pay a small fee, they run your details through a system to check you aren't a terrorist etc and then you are free to travel for X amount of time. The continuation of reciprocal health agreements mean that travel insurance should not be a requirement of entry for EU citizens into UK or for UK Citizens into the EU. People who travel regularly to Schengen countries will just renew every 3 years (at cost of 7 Euros). Unlike with a visa there will be no requirement for the application to be linked to a journey, people will be able to renew simply because their last waiver is about to expire. With the exception of visas on arrival (which are really just an entry tax), a visa requires you to provide plans, often attending an appointment to provide finger prints and they are usually expensive. The launch of ETIAS (and a UK equivalent) will trigger a certain type of Europhile but it won't make a real difference to Eurostar or airline passenger levels. People who are remotely likely to make short notice journeys to the EU will be overwhelmingly people who will keep their ETIAS in date. Most applications will be processed within minutes. I will be happier going on holiday knowing almost all visitors to both the UK and the EU will be subject to a basic background check.

 

[AverageTD]

I will be happier going on holiday knowing almost all visitors to both the UK and the EU will be subject to a basic background check.

Has this worried you in the past? In my completely unrealistic ideal world we'd be part of Schengen and people feeling better because of pre-boarding checks or something like ETIAS when travelling with Eurostar has never occurred to me. Is this a widespread sentiment among Eurostar passengers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has this worried you in the past? In my completely unrealistic ideal world we'd be part of Schengen and people feeling better because of pre-boarding checks or something like ETIAS when travelling with Eurostar has never occurred to me. Is this a widespread sentiment among Eurostar passengers?

I certainly think there is little to be gained and a lot to be lost by joining Schengen.

 

[EAD]

I certainly think there is little to be gained and a lot to be lost by joining Schengen.

Moot maybe given the UK was never likely to join the Schengen Area. Of course the broader Schengen framework also includes the Schengen Information System for police/border information and intelligence (so e.g. UK was and Ireland is part of that but not part of the area). Of course the Schengen Border Code is there to ensure the standard of checks on entry and exit from the Schengen zone as a whole - the passport scan/swipe against the database. Whether the zone within your external border is one country or more you are still facing the same challenges on correctly managing that border.

 

[Chester1]

Has this worried you in the past? In my completely unrealistic ideal world we'd be part of Schengen and people feeling better because of pre-boarding checks or something like ETIAS when travelling with Eurostar has never occurred to me. Is this a widespread sentiment among Eurostar passengers?

I doubt people think about it until they hear about either system. With passport checks for flights and Eurostar already in place its not much of an extra inconvenience. Its not a particular worry but a policy of visitors in both EU and UK requiring basic pre travel background checks to check they are not terrorists or serious criminals would be a positive for me.

Like I said earlier in the thread, it will have a negligible effect on passenger numbers for both Eurostar and flights. The biggest potential problem for British tourists (requirement of proof of healthcare) should have been resolved by the reciprocal healthcare agreement within the trade and co-operation agreement

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Have been keeping a watch on news outlets regarding Eurostar, it seems from the headlines and tempo that Eurostar is just about reaching crisis point?

 

[MotCO]

Have been keeping a watch on news outlets regarding Eurostar, it seems from the headlines and tempo that Eurostar is just about reaching crisis point?

The Daily Telegraph has written today that SNCF, one of its owners, is not short of money - it's just that it wants to invest £517m in a high speed link in Spain (quoted from Rail Insider).

I quote the Daily Telegraph: "It has emerged that at the same time as passing round the begging bowl for a £500m bailout of Eurostar, parent company SNCF is planning to plough hundreds of millions into a costly new high-speed service in Spain.
The bill for that? €600m (£517m), according to trade publication Rail Insider. So it’s not that SNCF is broke and doesn’t have the money to support Eurostar, it’s just that it would prefer to spend it elsewhere." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/24/two-faced-french-taking-britain-ride-eurostar/ (Behind paywall)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Daily Telegraph has written today that SNCF, one of its owners, is not short of money - it's just that it wants to invest £517m in a high speed link in Spain (quoted from Rail Insider).

I quote the Daily Telegraph: "It has emerged that at the same time as passing round the begging bowl for a £500m bailout of Eurostar, parent company SNCF is planning to plough hundreds of millions into a costly new high-speed service in Spain.
The bill for that? €600m (£517m), according to trade publication Rail Insider. So it’s not that SNCF is broke and doesn’t have the money to support Eurostar, it’s just that it would prefer to spend it elsewhere." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/24/two-faced-french-taking-britain-ride-eurostar/ (Behind paywall)

Another reason why any "bailout" should come in the form of an investment in the company, thus diluting SNCF's stake.

 

[Ianno87]

The Daily Telegraph has written today that SNCF, one of its owners, is not short of money - it's just that it wants to invest £517m in a high speed link in Spain (quoted from Rail Insider).

I quote the Daily Telegraph: "It has emerged that at the same time as passing round the begging bowl for a £500m bailout of Eurostar, parent company SNCF is planning to plough hundreds of millions into a costly new high-speed service in Spain.
The bill for that? €600m (£517m), according to trade publication Rail Insider. So it’s not that SNCF is broke and doesn’t have the money to support Eurostar, it’s just that it would prefer to spend it elsewhere." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/24/two-faced-french-taking-britain-ride-eurostar/ (Behind paywall)

Probably a shrewder investment at the present time - capital investment with a long term payback, versus limping a current operator along on in the short term with low certainty of a return to a sustainable number of passengers, totally at the mercy of rules and restrictions imposed by governments.

From a hard-nosed business perspective, entirely the right decision.

 

[MotCO]

Probably a shrewder investment at the present time - capital investment with a long term payback, versus limping a current operator along on in the short term with low certainty of a return to a sustainable number of passengers, totally at the mercy of rules and restrictions imposed by governments.

From a hard-nosed business perspective, entirely the right decision.

From a payback perspective, I agree, but from a liquidity perspective, surely any business would cut back on its capital programme if the funds were running out.

 

[Ianno87]

From a payback perspective, I agree, but from a liquidity perspective, surely any business would cut back on its capital programme if the funds were running out.

Although I can't imagine the French Government letting SNCF as a whole fail. But the Eurostar bit is, in effect, expendable to the core SNCF business.

 

[MotCO]

Although I can't imagine the French Government letting SNCF as a whole fail. But the Eurostar bit is, in effect, expendable to the core SNCF business.

But a new track in Spain is also not core business?

 

[Starmill]

But a new track in Spain is also not core business?

Presumably it's a reference to Ouigo Spain, a new low-cost operation SNCF are launching. Quite unlike Eurostar's, the domestic Spanish market has the potential to rapidly scale up and generate significant long-term profits.

 

[Ianno87]

But a new track in Spain is also not core business?

No. But, at this moment in time, a much better investment than pouring money into loss-making Eurostar, which has no clarity on when it will be back to trading "normally".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Daily Telegraph has written today that SNCF, one of its owners, is not short of money - it's just that it wants to invest £517m in a high speed link in Spain (quoted from Rail Insider).
I quote the Daily Telegraph: "It has emerged that at the same time as passing round the begging bowl for a £500m bailout of Eurostar, parent company SNCF is planning to plough hundreds of millions into a costly new high-speed service in Spain.
The bill for that? €600m (£517m), according to trade publication Rail Insider. So it’s not that SNCF is broke and doesn’t have the money to support Eurostar, it’s just that it would prefer to spend it elsewhere." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/24/two-faced-french-taking-britain-ride-eurostar/ (Behind paywall)

That's because France, Spain and Italy face competition on their domestic high-speed routes for the first time, under the EU Railway Packages (as do other countries, to differing timescales).
Trenitalia and Renfe are setting up in France as a result, so SNCF are only responding to the competition by setting up in Spain, which amounts to open access in our terms.
SNCF is indeed stony broke, to the extent of €50 billion or so, much of which has been taken on by the French state directly, while the operational company is being restructured.
Eurostar is not 100% SNCF/French anyway, they have 55% and there is 30% Canadian shareholding, 10% British and 5% Belgian (with the Canadian and British shares being in private rather than government hands).

Saying "SNCF is not short of money" is like describing Network Rail finances here.
They only have the money the government allows them to have.

 

[StephenHunter]

I'm not sure that the Daily Torygraph is the best source on all of this.

 

[HS2isgood]

Presumably it's a reference to Ouigo Spain, a new low-cost operation SNCF are launching. Quite unlike Eurostar's, the domestic Spanish market has the potential to rapidly scale up and generate significant long-term profits.

The domestic Spanish market is underexploited under the RENFE monopoly atm, I think there should be a relevant market to tap into. One of the major disadvantages of the Spanish non-commuter trains is the mandatory reservation on nearly every service, and the lack of any fixed service patterns in LD services.

 

[Starmill]

The domestic Spanish market is underexploited under the RENFE monopoly atm, I think there should be a relevant market to tap into. One of the major disadvantages of the Spanish non-commuter trains is the mandatory reservation on nearly every service, and the lack of any fixed service patterns in LD services.

Absolutely. Ouigo Espana will also be competing with RENFE's new low-cost brand, Avlo, and if the entrance of Trenitalia's ISLA low-cost service in Spain makes it through, there too. Of course, SNCF are also getting in first before RENFE's entrance of the French domestic market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The domestic Spanish market is underexploited under the RENFE monopoly atm, I think there should be a relevant market to tap into. One of the major disadvantages of the Spanish non-commuter trains is the mandatory reservation on nearly every service, and the lack of any fixed service patterns in LD services.

France manages to operate enough capacity with CR in place, most of the time. The problem is that RENFE operates what it feels like (frequencies and lengths) and just tells those who can't get a seat to go away - they make no attempts at all to grow their market - it's a problem with CR (because people are turned away) but it'd also be a problem without (because it'd have gross overcrowding like XC does, say). Hence the rather well-developed coach market there. France, if anything, being a non-Takt country, actually does put effort into putting capacity where it's needed.

 

[Aictos]

Only true among railway enthusiasts, staff on discount tickets, and those who do not fly, either for environmental reasons, or because they've a fear of flying. The reality is Eurostar don't try to integrate with other rail services at either end very hard, and they most certainly don't offer sensible prices.


Maybe, but who do you propose pays the bills meantime?

Umm claiming Eurostar don't try to integrate with other rail services is incorrect especially as National Rail advertises integration between National Rail services and Eurostar services allowing though ticketing from York or Huddersfield to Paris for example.

Train Travel in Europe | National Rail

It's easy to travel to almost anywhere in Europe by train from Great Britain – find out more about Eurostar, Interrail, popular destinations, how to book train tickets and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Considering that Eurostar pre Covid19 captured over 70% of London to Paris traffic, you can't seriously be saying that they were all rail enthusiasts, rail staff or those who don't like to fly?

 

[BananaRepublic]

......Eurostar is not 100% SNCF/French anyway, they have 55% and there is 30% Canadian shareholding, 10% British and 5% Belgian (with the Canadian and British shares being in private rather than government hands).

That 10% "British" is a UK subsidiary of an American corporation (Hermes Infrastructure, Hermes GPE LLP, a division of Federated Hermes Inc.).


In all this reporting about Eurostar's woes, there's no mention of the planned merger with Thalys, which was agreed last year (2020) and originally due to be completed this year (2021).
The new combined company would affect the overall balance of ownership again.


a

 

[ainsworth74]

Umm claiming Eurostar don't try to integrate with other rail services is incorrect especially as National Rail advertises integration between National Rail services and Eurostar services allowing though ticketing from York or Huddersfield to Paris for example.

Would you like to tell me where to book a through ticket from say Leeds to Paris? Or your examples of York or Huddersfield? Because you won't be able to do so via the Eurostar website nor by ringing them. The only vaguely integrated tickets remaining are those to London International which are not well advertised and only available, as far as I'm aware, from Raileasy, Trainsplit or from a station ticket office. When you consult the Eurostar website (I'm sure you'd agree more likely to be a prospective passengers first port of call rather than a tucked away corner of National Rail Enquires) you will find, at least from my quick scan, no information whatsoever of through ticketing being available (because it isn't) and nor will you even find any mention of London International tickets being available either.

I believe the statement that Eurostar don't try very hard to integrate is very accurate and I'd struggle to see how one could suggest anything otherwise from what is the actual picture of the service on the ground rather than an outdated page on NRE.

Considering that Eurostar pre Covid19 captured over 70% of London to Paris traffic, you can't seriously be saying that they were all rail enthusiasts, rail staff or those who don't like to fly?

Of course not but that was stated in relation to people changing trains at St Pancras. I'd be stunned if more than few dozen people or so on each departure have originated from locations outside the South East due to the lack of obvious integration between Eurostar and the National Rail network and, what integration does exist, ending up being more costly than just catching a flight from local airport.

 

[DavidCarbonis]

Would you like to tell me where to book a through ticket from say Leeds to Paris? Or your examples of York or Huddersfield? Because you won't be able to do so via the Eurostar website nor by ringing them. The only vaguely integrated tickets remaining are those to London International which are not well advertised and only available, as far as I'm aware, from Raileasy, Trainsplit or from a station ticket office. When you consult the Eurostar website (I'm sure you'd agree more likely to be a prospective passengers first port of call rather than a tucked away corner of National Rail Enquires) you will find, at least from my quick scan, no information whatsoever of through ticketing being available (because it isn't) and nor will you even find any mention of London International tickets being available either.

I believe the statement that Eurostar don't try very hard to integrate is very accurate and I'd struggle to see how one could suggest anything otherwise from what is the actual picture of the service on the ground rather than an outdated page on NRE.

Of course not but that was stated in relation to people changing trains at St Pancras. I'd be stunned if more than few dozen people or so on each departure have originated from locations outside the South East due to the lack of obvious integration between Eurostar and the National Rail network and, what integration does exist, ending up being more costly than just catching a flight from local airport.

One used to be able to book through tickets on Eurostar's own website (UK leg tickets were to/from London Eurostar CIV, LOE, as opposed to London Internationl CIV, LNE), but for at least over a year there's been an incompatibility between National Rail and Eurostar's booking systems.

I note from personal experience that there are locations on the Midland and East Coast mainlines where travelling to St Pancras/Kings Cross is still cheaper/quicker than going from a regional airport for end-to-end journey times. I grant that there are some regional airports near where I used to live in the East Midlands, but the choice of destination airport wasn't as time convenient (and came to a similar cost when luggage was factored in) as just taking the train there.

 

[Glenn1969]

We are still in the pandemic. I wouldn't judge anything involving travel or trade that involves quoting numbers of people or things crossing borders for at least another year

 

[Ianno87]

Would you like to tell me where to book a through ticket from say Leeds to Paris? Or your examples of York or Huddersfield? Because you won't be able to do so via the Eurostar website nor by ringing them. The only vaguely integrated tickets remaining are those to London International which are not well advertised and only available, as far as I'm aware, from Raileasy, Trainsplit or from a station ticket office. When you consult the Eurostar website (I'm sure you'd agree more likely to be a prospective passengers first port of call rather than a tucked away corner of National Rail Enquires) you will find, at least from my quick scan, no information whatsoever of through ticketing being available (because it isn't) and nor will you even find any mention of London International tickets being available either.

I believe the statement that Eurostar don't try very hard to integrate is very accurate and I'd struggle to see how one could suggest anything otherwise from what is the actual picture of the service on the ground rather than an outdated page on NRE.

Should they "integrate" (whatever that means)? Is there anything inherently wrong with buying seperate tickets for different legs? A bit like how I can't get on my local bus route and ask for a single to Hong Kong.

Of course not but that was stated in relation to people changing trains at St Pancras. I'd be stunned if more than few dozen people or so on each departure have originated from locations outside the South East due to the lack of obvious integration between Eurostar and the National Rail network and, what integration does exist, ending up being more costly than just catching a flight from local airport.

The "South East" still represents around 30% of the total population of the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Should they "integrate" (whatever that means)? Is there anything inherently wrong with buying seperate tickets for different legs? A bit like how I can't get on my local bus route and ask for a single to Hong Kong.

It would help if the UK would legislate to require accommodation on the next available train in the event of a missed connection due to a delayed train. That's how we require our domestic railway to operate, adding the requirement to include Eurostar wouldn't strike me as hard.

 

[ainsworth74]

One used to be able to book through tickets on Eurostar's own website (UK leg tickets were to/from London Eurostar CIV, LOE, as opposed to London Internationl CIV, LNE), but for at least over a year there's been an incompatibility between National Rail and Eurostar's booking systems.

Indeed, lost I would assume at the same time as the ability to book tickets to destinations in Germany from London via the DB website was also lost. Again, hardly the greatest advert for integration that Eurostar torpedoed both the main ways of booking through tickets on their services at the same time...

Should they "integrate" (whatever that means)? Is there anything inherently wrong with buying seperate tickets for different legs? A bit like how I can't get on my local bus route and ask for a single to Hong Kong.

Depends whether you'd be happy paying for a walk-up single on Eurostar if you train to London was late and you missed you booked train? Personally I think offering the protection of a through booking is a worthwhile benefit to the consumer and taking that away is an overall loss. Especially as it has likely increased the cost of such journeys (certainly in the case of my London to Germany example it has done so). Equally I'm far from convinced that asking to buy a ticket to Hong Kong on the local bus round my way is comparable to being able to book a ticket from Darlington to Paris.

Now if Eurostar and other companies agreed themselves (or were compelled by the EU/UK) to honour tickets in the event of missed connections where the reason for the missed connection was a delay whilst travelling on another train companies service then I'd agree that having separate ticket on different legs isn't inherently an issue. But at the moment either that isn't the case at all, it only applies if you hold certain tickets or if you're covered by HOTNAT which itself better than nothing but isn't the greatest protection and isn't that well advertised.

 

[Starmill]

Umm claiming Eurostar don't try to integrate with other rail services is incorrect especially as National Rail advertises integration between National Rail services and Eurostar services allowing though ticketing from York or Huddersfield to Paris for example.

It may indeed say that on National Rail Enquiries, but unfortunately it is not true, as others have explained.

To be honest we've moved well on from this now. The original point being made was that long-distance rail connections with Eurostar either in London or on the continent can't be booked on one ticket and thus involve risk being borne by the traveller which wouldn't be otherwise, and that this is a disincentive to such use. It's still possible, yes absolutely. In the same way as it's possible to combine PAYG safely with Eurostar if you're prepared to make your own arrangements should there be an issue, and that it's possible to get a workaround of a London International ticket in a separate transaction, although these often cost more anyway, and few people will visit a ticket office for one. It's just not likely. And it's also clearly not a business proposition, because otherwise they would be doing something about it wouldn't they?

You do have more luck booking through to 'any Belgian station' though this is easier as Belgium is relatively smaller by travel times, and SNCB don't restrict the trips by time. Oui.sncf can do some partial integration with France too, and Any Dutch Station is apparently coming to the UK version of the site, although it still won't let me today. Presumably this is because of the pandemic delays and temporary timetables.