Easily, if the battery is big enough!
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Would electrifying the WEML, Marshlink, North Downs and Uckfield lines with third rail be possible under the ORR's current policy?
- Thread starter Joseph T
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Easily, if the battery is big enough!
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R
RailUK Forums
So presumably you'd have to have a big specialist battery to do regular distances at acceptable speeds, rather than a cheap car battery to get you out of trouble.
Or lots of car batteries. Honestly having a fleet where one subclass is fitted with 20 miles range and one subclass with 100 miles range is no different to having different fuel tank capacities.
Irish Rail are currently introducing a new fleet of 90mph BEMUs for their commuter services to Drogheda, Maynooth, etc that will *only* charge in the Depot, and are expecting 90 off the wires. Germany and Japan also have fleets of BEMUs in regular service, as well as the 777 Fleet on Merseyrail. The range for something like Ore-Ashford is well proven in frontline service.
Indeed, it’s how they would get charged that’s the issue. Is there enough juice on the third rail from Brighton to Ore to power the trains and charge them enough? If not then is the turnaround at Ashford long enough to make up? If not then you have to use the Dublin method but that needs more trains and somewhere to hold them whilst they charge.
There should be - London to Eastbourne can run as 12-cars in the peaks so there's plenty of power in the system, and the time from Ore to Brighton and back would exceed time on battery by a fair margin. And if there isn't, you can always boost the power supply.
No, you would have a small battery on units that would be used on fully electrified routes, and a big battery on units that would be used on partially electrified routes. In the same way that LNERs 801s (used on electrified lines) have one engine to “get you home”, but there 800s (used on partially electrified routes) have more.
Or extend the turnround times, which is rather easier!
brad465
Established Member
Until @Bald Rick is given his long overdue appointment as head of the DfT, battery trains will continue to just be hot air discussion rather than delivering on the ground results.
Class15
Established Member
And so they should continue to be, to be honest. Like bi-modes, they are an excuse not to pursue electrification.
Within the UK, Battery trains are delivering on-the-ground results in passenger service today on Merseyrail at Headbolt Lane.
Bi-modes and BEMUs both help contribute to the greater effectiveness of electrification schemes as running non-electric trains over electrified lines is minimised. They absolutely should be seen as a component of electrification and not an alternative to it, but if you insist on 'EMU or bust' you're probably harming the case for further electrification, not helping it.
Well that won’t happen, but battery trains already have! Some in service, some on order, more to be ordered soon.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Why on earth are those batteries not charged when they operate on under the DART DC OHLE?
Merseyrail (headbolt lane) and TfW (valleys 756s) say hi
Apologies, can't say as I don't know, unless it's in a press release somewhere.
brad465
Established Member
When I came back to 4 notifications I wondered if my joke proposition had started a forum civil war
I presume the big GWR and Northern orders are the main ones to watch for large-scale battery tech inclusion.
There's some uncertainty how trains in the Dublin area will continue to be powered. DART is all DC today but the long-term strategy for Intercity is 25kV. Intercity trains all go to Dublin so they need to find a way to approach the city under existing DART wiring. Either that will have to be converted to AC or the new intercity trains will need to be able to run on DC. I expect the latter will be impractical so the AC conversion of infrastructure is a better option. That will require at least those parts of the DART network shared with Intercity to also be converted to AC. I expect these new DART+ trains, even if not delivered with a 25kVAC step down transformer, will be designed to allow its retrofit later and once all trains are running on the much more capable supply they could start taking charge in motion rather than having to rely on depot charging for the off-wire work. I think in the meantime, the battery can nonetheless be charged by recovered braking energy from regen while under wires. I wonder if that is a strategy to store energy if the line isn't receptive for current sharing with other trains, rather than wastefully burning it off in resistor banks.
While in this idea all DC emus would have an emergency battery good for 10 miles or so through temporary isolations, a subfleet for longer planned off-wire work such as Ashford - Hastings would be equipped with a larger battery, suitably sized for intended duties.
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Bob Holness springs to mind; "I've started so I'll finish." Was Redhill to Tonbridge really underway in 1989? It went live in early 1994. I seem to recall that the work on the ground started around 1992. It was at the end of the old DMU era, which were replaced by DEMUs in May 1993 for the last year of diesel operation.
The most astonishing part of that article is that 200 people are electrocuted at home each year. How dull are they? It's takes seconds to trip a few circuit breakers and a few seconds more to test that the circuit is dead before doing any work.
I'm surprised that more don't get electrocuted. Can they sense the danger somehow? Or is it the case that adult animals have seen what happens over the years and teach their young to stay away?
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Dr Hoo
Established Member
I didn't say that it was 'under way', I said that it had been 'initiated'. To give reasonable effect to the Treaty of Canterbury, signed as far back as 1986, various new and upgraded works with third rails were needed between the West London Line and Waterloo to Dollands Moor via various routes. These were progressively undertaken.
Similarly the third rail extensions from Hooton to Chester and Ellesmere Port had been announced and reported in the trade press back in 1989.
What about Solent infill? Again, possibly already “signed off” but I doubt work had started by 1990.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Started? It was finished and opened in May 1990!
Electricity at Work Regulations entered into force 1st April 1990 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/635/regulation/1) and ELR codes (http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm0 gives the following third rail lines being Opened/Commissioned after that date:
| From | To | Date |
| Eastleigh/St Denys | Portcreek/Farlingham Jns | 14 May 1990 |
| Stewarts Lane/Clapham Jn | Mitre Bridge Jn | 8 March 1993 |
| Hooton | Chester | 3 September 1993 |
| Redhill | Tonbridge | 6 March 1994 |
| Hooton | Ellesmere Port | 21 May 1994 |
| Stewarts Lane | Vauxhall | 14 November 1994 |
| Former Earl's Court Jn (not 100% sure where this is) | Clapham Jn | 29 September 1996 |
| Dalston Jn | New Cross/New Cross Gate | 27 April 2010 |
| Dalston Jn | Highbury | 28 February 2011 |
So, since the EaW Regs, we've had completion of the Solent Infill (already underway at time of Act), various bits connected with the Channel Tunnel, a small Merseyrail extension, and then the East London Line.
I think you're thinking of Magnus Magnussen, but Bob Holness was an alumni of my school, so I'll forgive you !!
My dad was an electrician by trade, and I watched him rewire a whole house. I wouldn't try it myself, but I can imagine some with more confidence and no knowledge might try and bodge it..
Also, we all learned at school to wire a plug in those days, so those of us of a certain generation have a bit of knowledge of wires (albeit not a particularly useful one)
(I'm not condoning amateur electronics. Get a sparkie in).
SHows how time plays tricks with the memory!
I think you mean 'amateur electrics/electricians' which is more likely to involve lethal voltages. Most sparkies have limited knowedge of electronics, - many of the accessories and devices in a modern installation have electronics in them but it is only necessary to have competence in the wiring regulations to connect them up and test them.
CBlue
Member
FWIW, wiring a plug is still taught in GCSE science.
My favourite bodge was finding that the by then deceased elderly owner of a bungalow had once fitted wired a old fashioned bar element bathroom heater up himself. The cable terminated in a standard three pin plug, attached to a multi gang extension lead sat in the loft insulation. The flex from the extension lead had been spliced into the ceiling light wiring for the bathroom and wrapped in electrical tape. He had also taken the precaution to nail the wiring flex to one of the wooden beams in the attic so it wouldn't move, presumably for safety reasons
I'm glad it is (although less useful these days !)
Less likely to change a plug, but does give a useful basis in the things to look out for on electronic devices, and why the plug is designed in the way that it is. It also covered the role of the earth pin, why it's sometimes not required, what earthing does, and why the actual live/neutral pins have sheathing on the section nearest the plug.
Plus (hopefully) some education in respect of fusing on BS1363 connections, and the impact of cable sizes.
I assume that isn’t always easier - possibly needing an extra platform to wait in, and/or an extra loop.
ie the IoW line has single terminal platforms and the timetable is built around the loops.