Would you always follow rules and procedure?

[Val3ntine]

Perhaps that’s the case in your part of the world but ScotRail drivers on the DOO Glasgow North and South Electric routes receive all sorts of instructions (albeit non safety critical) directly from their Controllers via the GSM-R after a sort of signaller’s revolt in Scotland. The RMT in Scotland said it was not the signaller’s job to issue ‘train operator’ instructions about running non stop, stopping additionally, terminating short, next workings, getting relief etc.. and it nearly came to industrial action so now it’s almost exclusively done by the TOC controllers, who can use their own terminal to send a Contact Control message to the cab mobile. The signaller will be told what’s happening by their own NR Controller so they can regulate accordingly but they’ll usually only know about it after the driver does. I’ve heard there is even about to be a trial of using the GSM-R to broadcast passenger announcements directly from the Control during disruption to save drivers from having to do it.

Ahh I see, clearly totally different proceedures in total in regards to different TOCS or even different regions.
Where I am anyway everything gets verified by signaller or no unusal move/action is taken by the driver

 

[Twotwo]

I answered no.

In fact in my recent train driver interview I explained where I refused to follow an emergency procedure as one of my replies to their competency questions.

And here I am now as a driver for the past 12 months. So it couldnt have been a terrible answer.

However I will add, the reason i gave for refusing to follow said process was because that it was unsafe.

What was the reason behind it if I may ask?

 

[oida89]

Which is exactly what happened. The previous station was an offside release and it was a busy commuter service. The passenger got their coat caught. Just unlucky I guess.



Which is the question that goes through the mind of the Driver or the person who is faced with making that decision. Does that passenger leave their jacket or wait 20 minutes before they can be released or do you pop the door, pull out the coat, and reset the door in a matter of seconds ?

You could always Pop that Door, have a High Speed Train go past, suck the doors off and suck the passenger out to their death. You'll have killed the passenger, or risked killing them, but common sense will have triumphed if that doesn't happen. Do you feel lucky with that other person's life? Well, do you?

 

[oida89]

Pop Quiz(s)


A stop mark in a sidings is incorrectly placed and your unit will foul the points. However, the latest instruction is to stop at the marked board. Do you stop or go past ?
?

Surely as a Driver you know that if your train is fouling the points you call the Depot controller and report it. You are a Driver right?

Sometimes it is intended and planned for that your train will foul the points.

 

[oida89]

Pop Quiz(s)

When preparing your unit for service you discover a skirt open (below sole bar cover) There is an air leak and the normally covered isolation cock will stop the leak. Do you isolate the cock and close the cupboard. This will resolve the leak and allow the train to be recovered to the depot. Or do you leave it because its an isolation cock that is usually inaccessible and not touched ?

What else did the Fitter forget to finish? Driving along, Driving along, and pop there goes your main air and oh, the fitter forgot to reengage the parking brakes and suddenly your whole unit is completely unbraked and about to kill everybody.

 

[ComUtoR]

You could always Pop that Door, have a High Speed Train go past, suck the doors off and suck the passenger out to their death. You'll have killed the passenger, or risked killing them, but common sense will have triumphed if that doesn't happen. Do you feel lucky with that other person's life? Well, do you?

I think you missed the word 'punk'

However, that is the big question in hand isn't it. Do you follow the rules to the letter or to you bend it slightly ? When there is a RAIB report they will look specifically at the rules and no further. I fully understand why people will ALWAYS follow the rules irrespective of the consequences. I also understand that people will also act on common sense. When it all goes well you get a pat on the back and potentially the rules get reviewed and changed. When it goes wrong....

Does then end justify the means ? Does someone who follow the rules precisely knowing that someone still gets hurt or worse still believe they should be vindicated ?

Surely as a Driver you know that if your train is fouling the points you call the Depot controller and report it. You are a Driver right?

Sometimes it is intended and planned for that your train will foul the points.

It's situational and I am fully aware of the rulebook.

I've driven 3 trains since November 2018. Does that qualify me as a Driver ?

What else did the Fitter forget to finish? Driving along, Driving along, and pop there goes your main air and oh, the fitter forgot to reengage the parking brakes and suddenly your whole unit is completely unbraked and about to kill everybody.

So who's fault would that be ? In the absence of specific rules and regulations, someone has to make a decision. Do we have thousands of rules to cover every single minutiae of our daily work lives or do we allow for flexibility and decision making ?


Welcome to the forum.

 

[bionic]

So who's fault would that be ? In the absence of specific rules and regulations, someone has to make a decision. Do we have thousands of rules to cover every single minutiae of our daily work lives or do we allow for flexibility and decision making ?

If you are doing a prep in the sidings and find a skirt up and an air leak you get hold of the shunter, yard coordinator, fleet controller etc and you find out why. Then you get the person who was working on it to come and finish what they were doing. Then you get confirmation that it is safe to restart the prep from the beginning. If this isn't done its kettle on and feet up time. You've already said this is equipment the driver doesn't touch.

You would have to be certifiably insane and completely reckless to just operate the cock, put the panel back on and run the train.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you are doing a prep in the sidings and find a skirt up and an air leak you get hold of the shunter, yard coordinator, fleet controller etc and you find out why.

100% that is what I'd do.

Then you get the person who was working on it to come and finish what they were doing. Then you get confirmation that it is safe to restart the prep from the beginning. If this isn't done its kettle on and feet up time. You've already said this is equipment the driver doesn't touch.

So this is where the original question comes into the fore. This is equipment that the Driver doesn't normally touch because it is inacessible behind the skirt. If you got confirmation and someone told you that you can operate the isolation cock and then lift and secure the skirt and carry on would you still do it ? It is a grey area and one where decision making needs to take place. I would support anyone who flat out refused and support anyone who got confirmation and acted. Just accepting something over the phone is just as negligent. Someone authorising you to do something that you would normally do is also just as negligent.

You would have to be certifiably insane and completely reckless to just operate the cock, put the panel back on and run the train.

So true, funny how it seems....

I just sat and re read the entire thread. You post highlights the intent of others who posted various scenarios. There is always more to each situation and you need more information before a decision can be made.

 

[bionic]

So this is where the original question comes into the fore. This is equipment that the Driver doesn't normally touch because it is inacessible behind the skirt. If you got confirmation and someone told you that you can operate the isolation cock and then lift and secure the skirt and carry on would you still do it ?

No way. If I'm not meant to be touching those panels I'm not taking responsibility for fixing one on. What if it flies off at 100mph and derails another train, or flies off and decapitates someone?

If the fleet controller told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?

It is a grey area

No it's not.

 

[DanDaDriver]

A common one we used to have is walking to prep your set at the Depot and there’s a NTBM board on. No tags, just the board. Radio up the yard foreman (all recorded) and get the reply; “Yes it’s fine, they’ve finished on it, just knock the board off.”

 

[ComUtoR]

No way. If I'm not meant to be touching those panels I'm not taking responsibility for fixing one on. What if it flies off at 100mph and derails another train, or flies off and decapitates someone?

Lets wind back a second. This isn't something you are forbidden to touch. This isn't something that there are any rules preventing it's use. Just something that is normally out of reach. Let us also pretend that you are fully traction qualified and have a decent amount of knowledge of the consequences and fully understand what this isolation cock does. To quote a forum members moniker.. This is little more than a 'MrPic' just a reach in and move the isolation cock 90 degrees.

If the fleet controller told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?

Not in the slightest and it's what has been mentioned before. Nobody should instruct you to do something you shouldn't and you should know the people who are authorised to give specific instructions.

No it's not.

How so ? There are no rules in place here. There are no procedures and nothing that prevents you from taking action. It's just an unusual situation where there is no clear cut right or wrong.

 

[ComUtoR]

A common one we used to have is walking to prep your set at the Depot and there’s a NTBM board on.

Remind me of the rules about the boards...

 

[DanDaDriver]

Remind me of the rules about the boards...

It’s all grey areas and hearsay.

 

[ComUtoR]

It’s all grey areas and hearsay.

Shame this is a public forum.

 

[sw1ller]

I brake rule 1.5 from rule book S7 on a daily basis. But local instructions let me do it. Does that count?

 

[ninhog]

I brake rule 1.5 from rule book S7 on a daily basis. But local instructions let me do it. Does that count?

Which local instruction allows you to ignore a potentially incorrect signal indication?

 

[alxndr]

The only situation where I would wilfully break a rule is if following the rule would pose a danger to life. Not an inconvenience or a delay but a real risk that someone would be killed or seriously maimed. At the end of the day I want to be able to go home and sleep at night.

 

[sw1ller]

Which local instruction allows you to ignore a potentially incorrect signal indication?

It’s the “unlit” part of the rule I’m referring to. There are emergency distant and stop signals that protect the end of a runway near the railway. They’re usually switched off and are only on if there’s an emergency.

 

[Aivilo]

G1 1.1 safety must always be your first concern. If there is no rule that allows or prevents you doing something you believe must be done, you must do it in the safest way way you know taking into account your training and experience.

 

[Eccles1983]

It’s the “unlit” part of the rule I’m referring to. There are emergency distant and stop signals that protect the end of a runway near the railway. They’re usually switched off and are only on if there’s an emergency.

Nailed it.

Valley of the RAF type?

 

[sw1ller]

It’s the “unlit” part of the rule I’m referring to. There are emergency distant and stop lights that protect the end of a runway near the railway. They’re usually switched off and are only on if there’s an emergency.

Nailed it.

Valley of the RAF type?

You got it. You learning it yet?

 

[oz220]

What was the reason behind it if I may ask?

Because doing so would put others at higher risk.
If you are procedurally required to take action X during an emergency but during that emergency, action X will put others at a higher risk. Would you continue to try to achieve action X or turn around and leave it. Not completing action X ultimately could also put people at risk however at the time I felt the risk was much higher by following the procedure.
I used this for my interview followed by the words; id never do or ask my team to take action which would put themselves at risk.

 

[t_star2001uk]

It’s the “unlit” part of the rule I’m referring to. There are emergency distant and stop signals that protect the end of a runway near the railway. They’re usually switched off and are only on if there’s an emergency.

Surly if they are usually off but only on during an emergency then the signal is in its correct state. So you dont break any rule passing it if it is unlit.

 

[Eccles1983]

You got it. You learning it yet?

Not yet, It's on one of the old FnW maps I dug out the other day.

 

[Eccles1983]

Surly if they are usually off but only on during an emergency then the signal is in its correct state. So you dont break any rule passing it if it is unlit.

That's not what the rule book says.

One of the conditions is that the signal is showing no light at all. These signals fit that and as such require a local instruction to prevent a driver stopping and reporting them on every occasion.

Rules and procedures can be justifiably broken. The classic one is fire bells ringing just as you enter a tunnel especially when I know that I am not making the other end. - I would knowing the layout of the signals reverse out of the tunnel as quick as I could. - the rules say you shouldn't just throw it in reverse and move more than 2ft.

It's called a justifiable violation.

 

[ComUtoR]

Surly if they are usually off but only on during an emergency then the signal is in its correct state. So you dont break any rule passing it if it is unlit.

If its 'unlit'. How do you know if the signal is working or not ?

Is the local instruction there because the unlit state is considered 'normal' (like an off indicator or how a SPAD indicator works) ?

 

[t_star2001uk]

If its 'unlit'. How do you know if the signal is working or not ?

Is the local instruction there because the unlit state is considered 'normal' (like an off indicator or how a SPAD indicator works) ?

Thats what i was trying to get at. It would be easier if we knew the location...

 

[t_star2001uk]

As the emergency signals are NOT normally illuminated then passing the it is not a breach of the Rule Book.

NW3001 - CREWE NORTH JN. TO HOLYHEAD
VALLEY
The down and up main line emergency colour light signals adjacent to the Valley Aerodrome runways will not
normally be illuminated but if the line is obstructed or damaged by aircraft these distant and stop signals, which are
operated from the Aerodrome Control Tower, will display caution and danger aspects respectively.
If a danger aspect is displayed drivers must bring their trains to a stand at the emergency stop signal and tell the signaller
at Valley signal box using the telephone at the signal. If a train is to be detained at the signal drivers must place three
detonators 20 metres apart on the line on which the train is standing 300 metres (approximately 300 yards) in rear of the
train.
Drivers must not proceed until the signal lights have been extinguished and the personal authority of the signaller has
been obtained
If the line has to be examined to ascertain whether the permanent way is obstructed or damaged, and no other competent
person is readily available, the signaller may request the driver of a train stopped at the signal to arrange for a member of
the traincrew to examine the line on foot.
During a failure of the emergency signals, drivers of trains will be instructed by the signaller at the next signal box open in
rear to approach the emergency signals at caution and be prepared to stop if a hand danger signal is shown.
Whenever possible, the patrolman must test the telephone at the emergency stop signal and, if it is out of order, report the
circumstances to the nearest signal box.

 

[ComUtoR]

Gotta love 'local instructions'

Cheers t_star2001uk

 

[sw1ller]

Yeah, that’s the one. Still unlit init!! That rule doesn’t state anything about if the signals are normally off, it just says I have to stop if a signal is unlit - which I don’t do at this location.

My point is, there’s no easy yes or no answer to the question. Theres all sorts of local rules and ways of working.

TW1 10.2 days I must use the low tone on the horn when passing a whistle board, but theres one in particular I give both tones every time. So I’m breaking that rule too, however, that ones backed up by the line “at any other time you consider necessary” sooooo, I dunno anymore.