XC trains behing heavily used by Wolverhampton to Birmingham commuters: how could this be resolved?

[tomoufc]

Unconvincing. It appears to concentrate on tickets sold rather than revenue generated (per seat). But this is really off topic for this thread.

Thanks for your feedback. I'll certainly bear it in mind before commenting again.

 

[Rich McLean]

Would be more simple for Tickets sold to and from Coventry and Wolverhampton and stations in-between, have a "Not XC" restriction. Tickets to/from stations south east of Coventry and North of Wolves wouldn't be affected. Then XC Revenue protection patrol the trains with lots of announcements about validity.

 

[tomoufc]

Would be more simple for Tickets sold to and from Coventry and Wolverhampton and stations in-between, have a "Not XC" restriction. Tickets to/from stations south east of Coventry and North of Wolves wouldn't be affected. Then XC Revenue protection patrol the trains with lots of announcements about validity.

Good point

 

[HSTEd]

If the trains really are crowded then on train revenue protection will be almost useless.

If they aren't crowded there is no point in this exercise

 

[redreni]

I wonder if it would be possible for XC to opt out of the TfWM ticket scheme? Aren't they generally optional schemes as things stand, with the odd few bus operators not joining? That'd take you closer to the German approach where such tickets are generally only valid on regional services, not InterCity ones.

I'm not at all sure those XC routes would get an IC number in Germany. RE (regional express) at best, given the frequency of the stops. Which means they'd be accepting the €49 ticket...

Ideally yes as they're short trains with limited capacity. In Germany they'd also be kept off the Avantis, but these typically have enough capacity so in this context it wouldn't make sense to do so.

Having said that, if double sets to Pwllheli become the norm that'd mean a 6 car set on this route where it'd be a lot less of a problem (the CAFs are better at taking crowds than Voyagers due to the door layout).

Quite.

The need is to keep passengers on the trains with the capacity for the journeys those people are making, without the inefficiency of using long trains where they aren't needed.

There would still be five or six trains an hour open to travellers between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

They are needed.

Absolutely! But the cost factor against it is to all intents and purposes permanent. The most achievable solution would be longer trains all round though of course that introduces the problem of avoiding over-capacity elsewhere. And the experience of GWR with its mix of unit lengths on long-distance services hardly inspires confidence in the most obvious way of dealing with that problem.

Overcapacity is only really a problem in an environment where the finance ministry flips out in a really rather irrational way when certain trains aren't full for their entire line of route. We wouldn't say to a car driver who takes his four children to school that he doesn't need five seats and that it's an unaffordable extravagance just because, when he drives home after dropping off the children, 80% of his car's seats are empty.

If the trains really are crowded then on train revenue protection will be almost useless.

If they aren't crowded there is no point in this exercise

Bingo!

 

[TheWalrus]

Moderator note: Split from

CrossCountry compulsory reservations: forcing passengers into 1st class

CrossCountry seem to have started doing compulsory reservations on some services, but only between Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. This appears to be part of an attempt to prevent walk-ups from Birmingham to Wolverhampton from being issued on these services if there are no seats...

www.railforums.co.uk

I would disagree with declassifying First Class for that section. The easiest solution to deal with overcrowding is to skip the Wolverhampton call all together. Force the commuters to use alternative trains which start at New Street and are longer than a 4/5 coach voyager.

I partly agree, give Wolverhampton 1tph to/from Manchester or set down only southbound/pick up only northbound.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I partly agree, give Wolverhampton 1tph to/from Manchester or set down only southbound/pick up only northbound.

And perhaps lengthen WMT service, plus offer cheaper advances into Birmingham on those services in the medium term.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I partly agree, give Wolverhampton 1tph to/from Manchester or set down only southbound/pick up only northbound.

How does set down only southbound/pick up only northbound (at Wolverhampton) help anyone travelling on XC services to/from stations further South than Birmingham New Street, for example Bournemouth?

 

[The Planner]

How does set down only southbound/pick up only northbound (at Wolverhampton) help anyone travelling on XC services to/from stations further South than Birmingham New Street, for example Bournemouth?

Presumably they expect them to change or the pick up set down is on the Bristol services and not the Bournemouths. Makes no difference to the ones that no longer stop as they will just end up being slowed down somewhere anyway.

And perhaps lengthen WMT service, plus offer cheaper advances into Birmingham on those services in the medium term.

Thats a 4 car 350 that uses the bay at Wolves. You can't lengthen it.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Thats a 4 car 350 that uses the bay at Wolves. You can't lengthen it.

Would it be possible to extend the bay eastbound from Wolverhampton station?

 

[The Planner]

Would it be possible to extend the bay eastbound from Wolverhampton station?

Not without remodeling the throat. You would get awfully close to the viaduct as well.

 

[MarkyT]

Doesn't work because people may wish to travel to Wolves from further south.

I wonder if it might be helped by creating a set of fares slightly lower than the current ones routed WMT/Avanti Only? A lot of people will choose the cheaper option even if only by 10p, and that'd keep local journeys off the short TfWs as well. I usually argue against doing this but in this case there seems a solid reason for it. A lot will be on WM passes but not everyone.

Perhaps an 'intercity supplement'. Doesn't have to be high but would be a little extra hassle to obtain before travelling so could be a disincentive. Would apply to ordinary and cheap day single and return fares below a fairly low threshold set specifically to catch short journeys between these two stations and in similar cases like Birmingham-Coventry. Seasons would also attract the charge on journeys when the express was used. Cutting out the well-established Wolverhampton stop would be ludicrous, as would missing Coventry.

 

[JW4]

Curiously, looking 1 month in advance & about now in the day, TfW seems to be the cheapest for the journey - £3.60. So obviously, they're not worried about crowding out longer distance passengers to Central Wales.

There’s some CrossCountry £3.40 advance singles from BHM —> WVH, usually xx30.

£3.30 on some TFW xx32s from BHM —> WVH.

Yet all LM/WMR/LNR seem to be £5.60, only anytime singles are available, while Avanti only anytime is £5.50.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps an 'intercity supplement'.

A simple 'intercity supplement' doesn't really work though because Avanti has plenty of capacity on most of its trains in the corridor. The solution needs to be a 'short train' supplement, but such a thing is difficult to define.

 

[JW4]

It can’t help things at all that you can buy TFW/XC only tickets and save usually at least £1.40 over taking an LNR/WMR service.

It deincentivises passengers from taking the stopper or the Liverpool or the Shrewsbury given they’re more expensive if you’re not doing a walk-up fare.

 

[redreni]

Perhaps an 'intercity supplement'. Doesn't have to be high but would be a little extra hassle to obtain before travelling so could be a disincentive. Would apply to ordinary and cheap day single and return fares below a fairly low threshold set specifically to catch short journeys between these two stations and in similar cases like Birmingham-Coventry. Seasons would also attract the charge on journeys when the express was used. Cutting out the well-established Wolverhampton stop would be ludicrous, as would missing Coventry.

Worth remembering, perhaps, that the M6 suffered with a lack of capacity to deal with local traffic in addition to the long distance traffic it was built for.

Additional capacity was provided in the form of the M6 Toll road.

Not sure why we should accept these bodge solutions to try to dampen demand artificially and push people onto local stopping trains that are already overcrowded just because it's public transport?

Whilst not relevant to the weekday commuter peaks, it's worth remembering these XC trains also suffer from overcrowding at other times and that's despite the demand-suppression/revenue gouging tactic of opting out of the national GroupSave scheme, thus encouraging people to drive.

 

[MarkyT]

Would it be possible to extend the bay eastbound from Wolverhampton station?

Not without remodeling the throat. You would get awfully close to the viaduct as well.

There might some opportunity to lengthen. There was a parcels dock on the same track beyond the bay platform that seems to have been removed recently to make room for the new tram track behind. That could add a coach length I think while still maintaining 20m+ clear beyond the buffer stop face for safety. At the outer end of the platform, the bay turnout might be replaced by a tighter left-handed one about 20m east of the existing location. The bay platform starting signal might also be moved out a bit closer to the throat and the platform extended a little on the bay side only. 6 cars should be possible, if not 8. While there would be new trackside signalling equipment involved it would look exactly like the existing layout to the interlocking and control centre. The red line below is 170m long.

 

[JW4]

Rather than an inter-city supplement would you not be better off introducing WMR/LNR advances for New Street to Wolverhampton due to the presence of TFW and XC ones?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A simple 'intercity supplement' doesn't really work though because Avanti has plenty of capacity on most of its trains in the corridor. The solution needs to be a 'short train' supplement, but such a thing is difficult to define.

And how do you rightfully advertise a train being short as a benefit worth paying extra for??

 

[JonathanH]

And how do you rightfully advertise a train being short as a benefit worth paying extra for??

Arguably that is the point. If the supplement is enough, no one uses it. However, whether it is collectable is another matter.

 

[JW4]

Arguably that is the point. If the supplement is enough, no one uses it. However, whether it is collectable is another matter.

If you go off only the train length, the 730 Wolves-Walsall via Birmingham stopping services will be only 3 carriages. I don’t think discintevitising that is a good idea, especially given LNR/WMR is already the most expensive way to travel between Wolves and Birmingham before 6:30pm.

Don’t we want to incentivise these passengers using XC for Birmingham-Wolves to switch to the likes of the Wolves-Walsall via Birmingham and Shrewsbury services, which currently they are not.

 

[MarkyT]

A simple 'intercity supplement' doesn't really work though because Avanti has plenty of capacity on most of its trains in the corridor. The solution needs to be a 'short train' supplement, but such a thing is difficult to define.

It could be applied selectively on a train-by-train basis based on known crowding figures. The trains would be marked in timetables that the supplement applies for short journeys into Birmingham New St from adjacent major stations within the West Midlands.

 

[JW4]

It could be applied selectively on a train-by-train basis based on known crowding figures. The trains would be marked in timetables that the supplement applies for short journeys into Birmingham New St from adjacent major stations within the West Midlands.

There is a list of trains that Rail Staff Travel users are advised to avoid because of their crowding figures. Maybe they could use some of the services on that list.

 

[MarkyT]

And how do you rightfully advertise a train being short as a benefit worth paying extra for??

They'd be trying to disincentivise local travel on these trains by this mechanism, though you'd still be able to pay the premium say if you wanted to get home quicker one evening. Overall, setting a price differential should help to reduce numbers.

 

[JW4]

Overall, setting a price differential should help to reduce numbers.

The price differential is there at the moment. It being most expensive on the WMR/LNR services and £0.10 on Avanti, and advances being available on TFW and XC. The current set price differential incentives using the 1xxx Headcode trains (Except for the Liverpool)

Rather than setting a new price differential shouldn’t we think about what the current one incentivises, packing onto the 2/4 car TFW with passengers heading for Wales and onto the 4/5 car XC already with passengers heading for Manchester.

 

[MarkyT]

There is a list of trains that Rail Staff Travel users are advised to avoid because of their crowding figures. Maybe they could use some of the services on that list.

Some are barred to staff outright or for use of first class facilities (if the particular individual is entitled to that). Could provide a useful starting point, and presumably the list evolves as demand changes.

 

[JW4]

Some are barred to staff outright or for use of first class facilities (if the particular individual is entitled to that). Could provide a useful starting point, and presumably the list evolves as demand changes.

On Monday to Thursday four of them currently affect XC WVH —> BHM.
11:39 WVH —> BHM (ex-Manchester)
13:39 WVH —> BHM (ex-Manchester)
14:01 BHM —> WVH (ex-Bournemouth)
17:01 BHM —> WVH (ex-Bournemouth)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They'd be trying to disincentivise local travel on these trains by this mechanism, though you'd still be able to pay the premium say if you wanted to get home quicker one evening. Overall, setting a price differential should help to reduce numbers.

We already have the second most expensive walk up fares in Europe after Norway, according to several studies done by average price per mile, and I don't think advocating increasing CrossCountry's fares will really do anyone any favours.

 

[MarkyT]

On Monday to Thursday four of them currently affect XC WVH —> BHM.
11:39 WVH —> BHM (ex-Manchester)
13:39 WVH —> BHM (ex-Manchester)
14:01 BHM —> WVH (ex-Bournemouth)
17:01 BHM —> WVH (ex-Bournemouth)

Does the Facilities 'F' code refer to first class.

 

[JW4]

Does the Facilities 'F' code refer to first class.

No