XC woes: what should the policy regarding first class on overcrowded services be?

[Mogz]

Moderator note: Split from

Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

Somewhere I read that there was a suggestion of 46 services being taken out of the timetable.. The only place I would have seen that was in one of these forums. Maybe they won't run 170s on Sundays. I have seen the rumour about no 170s on Sundays and think it is somwhat incorrect. If XC...

www.railforums.co.uk

More Crosscountry woes today.

17:39 Oxford-Piccadilly.

4 coaches.

People unable to get on.

First Class virtually empty.

Train staff telling people they can’t get on at the front and stand in the first class vestibule.

This has been a problem for over fifteen years but no-one seems to care.

 

[vicbury]

More Crosscountry woes today.

17:39 Oxford-Piccadilly.

4 coaches.

People unable to get on.

First Class virtually empty.

Train staff telling people they can’t get on at the front and stand in the first class vestibule.

This has been a problem for over fifteen years but no-one seems to care.

I'd get on and tell them to call the Police if they had an issue with it. Only takes one passenger to say enough is enough and the staff will quickly realise they need to apply common sense.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'd get on and tell them to call the Police if they had an issue with it. Only takes one passenger to say enough is enough and the staff will quickly realise they need to apply common sense.

Because that's very mature and helpful of you..

Yes I suspect Standard Class pax were denied standing by the front vestibule because of it's close proximity to the galley- The First Class host won't want people stood in their way when they're trying to prepare food and drink or stock their trolley.

 

[vicbury]

Because that's very mature and helpful of you..

Yes I suspect Standard Class pax were denied standing by the front vestibule because of it's close proximity to the galley- The First Class host won't want people stood in their way when they're trying to prepare food and drink or stock their trolley.

So what if first class passengers can't have their food and drink? Is that more important than leaving people stranded?

Idiotic rules are made to be broken and staff at other train operators are far more pragmatic in such situations.

My GWR train manager had no issue whatsoever with first class being full of standard ticket holders on a crowded service last week

 

[fishwomp]

More Crosscountry woes today.
17:39 Oxford-Piccadilly.
4 coaches.
People unable to get on.
[..]
This has been a problem for over fifteen years but no-one seems to care.

I think there was plenty more room for sardines in the other carriages: normally when they're _that_ rammed, it gets later and later at each stop due to the time it takes for people to get on and off - whereas that one kept time until it hit was delayed on the single track section north of Leamington.

If the railway staff don't board with a spatula to peel the passengers off from each other at each stop, there's no problem and it's perfectly fine, you could fit more passengers in yet...

(yes, being sarcastic.. it's no way to run a railway)

 

[tomoufc]

I'd get on and tell them to call the Police if they had an issue with it. Only takes one passenger to say enough is enough and the staff will quickly realise they need to apply common sense.

Do XC have a policy of not declassifying first class these days?

I was on an extremely busy voyager from Sheffield to Leeds on Sunday. The guard didn’t mention the overcrowding, but did say that first class is for first class ticket holders only (neglecting of course to mention that standard class tickets can be upgraded). Of course, there was no way they could actually reach first class, so I didn’t pay any extra.

My theory is I’ll eventually have to pay for a first class upgrade, but by then I’ll have amassed dozens of journeys in first class. There’s no way I’d still travel by XC without such a strategy.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Yes I suspect Standard Class pax were denied standing by the front vestibule because of it's close proximity to the galley- The First Class host won't want people stood in their way when they're trying to prepare food and drink or stock their trolley.

So what if first class passengers can't have their food and drink? Is that more important than leaving people stranded?
Idiotic rules are made to be broken and staff at other train operators are far more pragmatic in such situations.
My GWR train manager had no issue whatsoever with first class being full of standard ticket holders on a crowded service last week

When Cross Country receive and get into service all 12 five car class 221 Voyagers from Avanti I wish they would make their entire Voyager fleet standard class only and replace the first class seating with standard class as they have for the class 170 trains used for their Nottingham to Cardiff and Birmingham to Stansted services.

Having these additional 12 five car class 221 Voyager will ensure they can operate five car or double set Voyagers on all busy routes, but it would be a bigger improvement if the first class areas were replaced with standard class seating.

There is no point in having first class on train services that get overcrowded, due to not having enough seats, especially when first class has to be declassified to cope with the overcrowding.

If the DfT want first class, they should have a lot more seats in total on the trains.

 

[1D54]

My GWR train manager had no issue whatsoever with first class being full of standard ticket holders on a crowded service last week

And hopefully informing first class ticket holders how to go about obtaining a refund.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Because that's very mature and helpful of you..

Yes I suspect Standard Class pax were denied standing by the front vestibule because of it's close proximity to the galley- The First Class host won't want people stood in their way when they're trying to prepare food and drink or stock their trolley.

So what if first class passengers can't have their food and drink? Is that more important than leaving people stranded?

It’s a designated first class area, so unless in exceptional circumstances, I fail to see why those who have paid extra for the premium should fail to receive the service so that people who haven’t can stand in part of the first class carriage.

My GWR train manager had no issue whatsoever with first class being full of standard ticket holders on a crowded service last week

I would have had issue if I were one of the people that had paid for the privilege of using first class; I hope the extra was reimbursed.

 

[fishwomp]

I wonder whether first class is profitable when you're prepared to crush load standard.

Compare:
- A half empty carriage (already with fewer than standard seats) conveying passengers at 2x the fare of standard.
- A carriage full and standing at a 50% more passengers than seated capacity

Then consider how full is first class when standard is half empty? Is it half empty, or three quarter empty? etc.. shuffling air around.

 

[vicbury]

It’s a designated first class area, so unless in exceptional circumstances, I fail to see why those who have paid extra for the premium should fail to receive the service so that people who haven’t can stand in part of the first class carriage.


I would have had issue if I were one of the people that had paid for the privilege of using first class; I hope the extra was reimbursed.

Exceptional circumstances, such as paying customers otherwise being left behind on the platform..?

 

[fishwomp]

Exceptional circumstances, such as paying customers otherwise being left behind on the platform..?

It's only exceptional if it doesn't happen often... Alas it does ..

 

[tomoufc]

I wonder whether first class is profitable when you're prepared to crush load standard.

Compare:
- A half empty carriage (already with fewer than standard seats) conveying passengers at 2x the fare of standard.
- A carriage full and standing at a 50% more passengers than seated capacity

Then consider how full is first class when standard is half empty? Is it half empty, or three quarter empty? etc.. shuffling air around.

I doubt it is profitable, but there’s essentially no political will to do anything different, so the situation is just allowed to fester.

 

[Xavi]

On a recent trip from Devon to Derby with all services running to schedule, first class was full (and standing heading south) mid-afternoon. My ticket cost about £300. XC won’t be scrapping first class anytime soon.

 

[Mogz]

Meanwhile in continents Europe they get nice new long trains with features that long distance trains USED to have here but no longer do…

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder whether first class is profitable when you're prepared to crush load standard.

Compare:
- A half empty carriage (already with fewer than standard seats) conveying passengers at 2x the fare of standard.
- A carriage full and standing at a 50% more passengers than seated capacity

Then consider how full is first class when standard is half empty? Is it half empty, or three quarter empty? etc.. shuffling air around.

Every time I see XC services at Reading (I actually avoid travelling by XC these days) 1st Class is pretty well loaded.

 

[Jimini]

Every time I see XC services at Reading (I actually avoid travelling by XC these days) 1st Class is pretty well loaded.

I concur with that. It's been quite noticeable how first class business has picked up on this corridor, particularly since the end of the Covid timetables and the return to mainly single unit working / everything running to Bournemouth and vv. (ex. Manchester).

I now travel exclusively in first class between Reading and the West Midlands; fortunately I am in a position where I can be pretty flexible on timings so will plan around Seatfrog availability M-F, or just do a weekend upgrade Sat-Sun.

 

[brad465]

If XC ever got an IET fleet, or something else that significantly increase the number of seats for the same carriage count, then both a suitable first class and a higher capacity standard class could be achieved. You could also have carriages that partition first and standard, like on other IETs.

4-car Voyager's in particular are really bad in only having 3 standard cars, which can't really be retrofitted with a partition or removal of 1st entirely; if they had 5s and 9s they can have better 1sttandard ratios as well as greater capacity overall.

 

[Snow1964]

So what if first class passengers can't have their food and drink? Is that more important than leaving people stranded?

Idiotic rules are made to be broken and staff at other train operators are far more pragmatic in such situations.

My GWR train manager had no issue whatsoever with first class being full of standard ticket holders on a crowded service last week

They are of course free to change the relative pricing of first and standard tickets to reflect the proportions of each class on the train.

If they are going to charge a premium, then those who have paid and accepted the higher price will get them more should be able to enjoy what they have paid for.

Ultimately if tickets are being sold, the solution should be provide standard class capacity, not ruin the ambiance of those you have advertised / contracted to give more to. And if have to downgrade should be instant refunds approach, not a casual if we remember to announce it and tell you that as customer you can do the work to apply for refund in your own time as happens now.

I think the train manager is wrong to accept standard class in First, would be much better if they fired off a stinky report to management saying leaving people behind and thus incurring lots of delay repay. They will never add extra vehicles if it doesn't give senior people headaches.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Do XC have a policy of not declassifying first class these days?

I was on an extremely busy voyager from Sheffield to Leeds on Sunday. The guard didn’t mention the overcrowding, but did say that first class is for first class ticket holders only (neglecting of course to mention that standard class tickets can be upgraded). Of course, there was no way they could actually reach first class, so I didn’t pay any extra.

My theory is I’ll eventually have to pay for a first class upgrade, but by then I’ll have amassed dozens of journeys in first class. There’s no way I’d still travel by XC without such a strategy.

I think you need to be very careful here, unless you are travelling at a weekend when special weekend upgrades are available travelling on a ticket type other than Advance.

CrossCountry do occasionally use a revenue protection contractor called Transport Investigations Ltd and you can be prosecuted for failing to purchase the upgrade before boarding (if facilities exist to do so). Simply taking the chance to "pay when challenged" is an offence, and if you are not asked for money, you are still liable to make a reasonable effort to pay the correct fare, no matter how strongly you feel about the situation.

They do not need to prove intent - they only need to prove ticket facilities existed at the time of boarding and that you occupied a first class seat or stood in a first class carriage or corridor/vestibule with a standard class ticket.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If they are going to charge a premium, then those who have paid and accepted the higher price will get them more should be able to enjoy what they have paid for.

Completely agree.

Ultimately if tickets are being sold, the solution should be provide standard class capacity, not ruin the ambiance of those you have advertised / contracted to give more to.

And again, completely agree.

 

[Goldfish62]

I now travel exclusively in first class between Reading and the West Midlands; fortunately I am in a position where I can be pretty flexible on timings so will plan around Seatfrog availability M-F, or just do a weekend upgrade Sat-Sun.

If you can afford the upgrade 1st Class really is the only way to travel between Reading and the W Midlands because it's such a truly hideous experience on this corridor otherwise.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the train manager is wrong to accept standard class in First, would be much better if they fired off a stinky report to management saying leaving people behind and thus incurring lots of delay repay. They will never add extra vehicles if it doesn't give senior people headaches.

Which 'senior people' have any power here? The service is specified by the DfT within the constraints of funding and the available rolling stock.

The best that 'senior people' can do is make some sort of case to the DfT, and in turn Treasury, to try to make things better, but ultimately it is always going to hit a funding barrier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you need to be very careful here, unless you are travelling at a weekend when special weekend upgrades are available travelling on a ticket type other than Advance.

This bit is very important - Weekend First type upgrades can generally only be purchased on board - few if any TOCs will sell them at all before boarding - thus paying when challenged is the only way to obtain them. And I too find that some TOCs are a bit bad at collecting them, Avanti are too.

On a weekday I'd agree, the OP would be risking prosecution or if applicable a Penalty Fare.

 

[amahy]

In my opinion, XC should just get rid of all first class until its trains are a proper length. To have an entire coach of first in just a 4 car train, when there is no unreserved coach, is completely ludicrous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately if tickets are being sold, the solution should be provide standard class capacity, not ruin the ambiance of those you have advertised / contracted to give more to. And if have to downgrade should be instant refunds approach

There is no mechanism to do this. If one was speccing a wholly new ticketing and retail system allowing train crew to scan a ticket and hit "refund" would be a useful feature (perhaps with an automatic process for someone to approve it in the back office), but as thing are the only way for it to be done is for the passenger to claim the (partial) refund from the retailer.

 

[tomoufc]

This bit is very important - Weekend First type upgrades can generally only be purchased on board - few if any TOCs will sell them at all before boarding - thus paying when challenged is the only way to obtain them. And I too find that some TOCs are a bit bad at collecting them, Avanti are too.

On a weekday I'd agree, the OP would be risking prosecution or if applicable a Penalty Fare.

Good shout, thanks. On reflection I think I’ve only done this on weekends anyway, since overcrowding seems less severe on weekdays.

In my opinion, XC should just get rid of all first class until its trains are a proper length. To have an entire coach of first in just a 4 car train, when there is no unreserved coach, is completely ludicrous.

Completely agree. It’s a service being provided at huge expense to taxpayers, and so capacity shouldn’t be wasted in this way.

 

[Ben427]

Because that's very mature and helpful of you..

Yes I suspect Standard Class pax were denied standing by the front vestibule because of it's close proximity to the galley- The First Class host won't want people stood in their way when they're trying to prepare food and drink or stock their trolley.

Heaven forbid the trolley doesn't get stocked.

The railway should be there for primarily moving people from A to B. First class on a 4 or even 5 carriage train is absurd.

 

[Teapot42]

Every time I see XC services at Reading (I actually avoid travelling by XC these days) 1st Class is pretty well loaded.

I suspect that's because people have started to realise that you can often pick up 1st Class advance tickets for about the same price as standard on many occasions. Trouble is, that just leads to overcrowding in First.

My mother was travelling back to Durham earlier this year, I checked the prices and it was something like £1 more for first over standard, and for that quid you got fed and watered. When she got to the train 1st was full and her seat taken. The person in it happily moved (no way at nearly 80 could she stand for nearly 3 hours) but that then meant he didn't have a seat.

While XC is one of the worst, it's a common problem in this country to provide the bare minimum capacity, rather than plenty for the average journey to be comfortable and there still be enough seats at peak times.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Every time I see XC services at Reading (I actually avoid travelling by XC these days) 1st Class is pretty well loaded.

I've noticed over the last month or two Cross Country appear to have greatly increased the availability of the "cheaper" First Class Advance tickets on their trains- although they can still be substantially more expensive compared to Standard Class.

Heaven forbid the trolley doesn't get stocked.

The railway should be there for primarily moving people from A to B. First class on a 4 or even 5 carriage train is absurd.

My point was health and safety- the train crew won't want passengers very close to them if avoidable whilst they're preparing hot food and drink.