Driver Only Operated Trains

[RichmondCommu]

G'day,

As far as I can see DOO trains only benefit the TOC and no one else. Are there any restrictions in place regarding their use?

Regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[starrymarkb]

I don't think you'll find DOO extended much since privatisation. IIRC C2C was the only major conversion. BR were the main drivers of it (esp in the NSE area)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There are lots of restrictions, from type of traction to equipment required like specific types radios and dispatch equipment like mirrors or CCTV monitors.
There are also agreements in place with unions about not expanding current DOO areas.
I'm almost certain I am wrong on this one, but most DOO working was introduced under British Rail and C2C are one of the few (if only?) examples of it being brought in since privatisation and even that was well over a decade ago.

You are absolutely correct that with the inference that the biggest motivation in bringing in DOO is that it is cheaper than traditional working but that is the biggest motivation for a lot of things in all walks of life, often to the benefit of the industry in the long term. I'm not saying that is the case in terms of DOO but somebody needs to play devils advocate for a moment and it might as well be me.

 

[Mojo]

I think customers benefit from DOO too as the trains are typically much quicker where the drivers operate the doors, plus there is the reduced chance of a train being cancelled or delayed due to non availability of train crew.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't think you'll find DOO extended much since privatisation. IIRC C2C was the only major conversion. BR were the main drivers of it (esp in the NSE area)

It's a pity the Government doesn't have the balls to reverse the policy, if only for trains that run late into the evening. Are all C2C trains DOO?

 

[michael769]

In Scotland Transport Scotland require that DOO trains have a ticket examiner onboard whenever possible, so it is fairly unusual to to see one that has only the driver onboard.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think customers benefit from DOO too as the trains are typically much quicker where the drivers operate the doors, plus there is the reduced chance of a train being cancelled or delayed due to non availability of train crew.

That''s true but the presence of a guard will make lone passengers feel more secure, epecially late at night. Not to mention revenue collection when ticket barriers are left open.

 

[Mojo]

It doesn't have to be a guard though; could just as easily be a ticket examiner on board the train like on the electric trains in the Glasgow area.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think customers benefit from DOO too as the trains are typically much quicker where the drivers operate the doors, plus there is the reduced chance of a train being cancelled or delayed due to non availability of train crew.

Indeed, the difference in station dwell times on the snail-like SWT compared to South Eastern Metro is quite noticeable.

 

[warriorwarlord]

I think NSE were the only sector to really drive DOO? I can't think of any Regional Railway's operated routes and certainly no IC routes that were DOO. Amusingly Chris Green actually portrayed it as a positive thing when it was introduced! Positive it could be, its a cost cutting measure. Apart from that? meh.

The time saving between DOO and guard operation is a trivial couple of seconds. With a driver+guard combo thats quick on the buzzer, possibly nothing.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It doesn't have to be a guard though; could just as easily be a ticket examiner on board the train like on the electric trains in the Glasgow area.

Thats a very good point. Are there any services where the ony member of train crew is the driver? In which case security late at night is going to be an issue?

 

[Starmill]

It's a pity the Government doesn't have the balls to reverse the policy, if only for trains that run late into the evening. Are all C2C trains DOO?

Hmm, this is interesting... as there ever been a service unDOO-ified?

 

[OxtedL]

We know you're very focused on this issue, RichmondCommuter.

It has been pointed out previously that guards/conductors are typically pretty powerless in dangerous situations on late night trains for a number of reasons.

Perhaps greater BTP presence would be helpful.

 

[Mojo]

I think NSE were the only sector to really drive DOO? I can't think of any Regional Railway's operated routes and certainly no IC routes that were DOO.

I have to admit to not being clued up on BR history, but were Scotrail considered part of Regional or were they their own sector? Otherwise I believe you are right in that other than the Strathclyde Manning Agreement the rest of DOO lines are in the ex-NSE area.

The time saving between DOO and guard operation is a trivial couple of seconds. With a driver+guard combo thats quick on the buzzer, possibly nothing.

Aren't we told that "every second counts?"

As I've said in the past my preferred choice would be for as many trains as possible to be staffed with a second member of crew, but for the doors to be controlled by the driver.

 

[RichmondCommu]

We know you're very focused on this issue, RichmondCommuter.

It has been pointed out previously that guards/conductors are typically pretty powerless in dangerous situations on late night trains for a number of reasons.

Perhaps greater BTP presence would be helpful.

Yes you're right I am. However, whilst I would never want to see a guard / conductor intervene in a dangerous situation it might make perpetrators think twice if they see a member of staff on the train.

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally I would prefer a trained security guard on a late night train, who can patrol it at will, than a conductor that has to withdraw to a door control panel at every stop.

What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the lower costs of DOO translate into lower costs for the whole industry. The industry relies on the fare payer and the tax payer to pay for it. So without DOO, arguably fares would be higher.

And it is a significant cost - the bill for conductors in just one TOC (large, but not the largest) is north of £40m a year.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have to admit to not being clued up on BR history, but were Scotrail considered part of Regional or were they their own sector?

There was definitely a Scot-Rail brand under BR but I'm not quite sure how much autonomy it had from the rest of Regional Railways. My feeling is that they were just a brand and operated as part of Regional Railways (similar perhaps to Gatwick Express ).

As I've said in the past my preferred choice would be for as many trains as possible to be staffed with a second member of crew, but for the doors to be controlled by the driver.

Agreed. DOO where it's literally DOO is a very bad thing for all concerned (except for the accountants) but if it was DOO a la Scotrail where there is still a Ticket Examiner where ever possible (so you have a visible staff presence, someone to handle customer service and a second person in the event of an accident or similar) then I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Personally I would prefer a trained security guard on a late night train, who can patrol it at will, than a conductor that has to withdraw to a door control panel at every stop.

It would be interesting to know in terms of cost how the two compare.

What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the lower costs of DOO translate into lower costs for the whole industry. The industry relies on the fare payer and the tax payer to pay for it. So without DOO, arguably fares would be higher.

And it is a significant cost - the bill for conductors in just one TOC (large, but not the largest) is north of £40m a year.

That's very true but I would be interested to know whether those cost savings are passed on to the commuter!

 

[Bald Rick]

Security guards are about half the cost per person, and would probably only need to be on late trains which is about 20% of the service. Taken together, maybe 10% of the cost of guards?

 

[455driver]

The time saving between DOO and guard operation is a trivial couple of seconds. With a driver+guard combo thats quick on the buzzer, possibly nothing.

A good guard with good use of the whistle can speed the loading quite a bit saving a lot more than a couple of seconds at each busy station!

 

[bronzeonion]

As some of you know I feel very strongly on this matter!

I am totally against Driver Only Operation, it's the cheap and nasty way to operate trains started by BR (on the mainline), especially NSE in the 80's and 90's with the introduction of 319/321 types and Networkers.

The time savings with DOO I'm sure only came about when the current guards procedure came into place? The whole stepping out onto the platform first before opening the main doors and making sure you stay on the platform till the main doors are closed then getting onboard and ringing the bell. Wasn't the old procedure to start the train just the guard ringing the bell once or was it twice? And the drivers would be the train moving off? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

In Japan pretty much all trains on any routes: Local, Regional, Long Distance and Shinkansen all have guards who operate the doors and make announcements and only have revenue duties on the 3 latter types of service. All of the JR routes in Tokyo have guards.

The procedure (On JR East at least) there is to see the train in with your head out of the drop down window in the cab door, check the train is in the platform (there is a painted marker on the platform edge and if lined up correctly the guard can open the doors straight away as soon as the train stops. Then he/she will open the door, stand on the platform and if provided operate the train ready to depart melody that plays a melody on the platform itself along with a final automated announcement to tell passengers that the doors are about to close. Then the guard will get back into his/her rear cab and with his/her head out of the drop down window and observe the platform train interface using moniters located at the rear of the platform if the train is long or the platform is curved. When departure time is within seconds the guard will close the doors then as soon as the doors are closed the train sets off, the guard will see the trian out fully with his/her head out of the window. I am not sure whether the driver goes on the pilot light or whether the guard has to press a button to illuminate a light in the drivers cab because there are certainly no bells or buzzers used for dispatch on JR East operated trains.

I cannot see why that procedure or something similiar to that cannot be implemented here, it is just as quick or quicker than DOO, safer, keeps people in work and a good image to passengers by having more than one member of staff.

 

[Southern313]

Personally I quite like the method that Southern have with the driver releasing the doors and the guard closing. Stop on the right car mark, doors open instantly after stopping. Have a proactive guard on the whistle and get doors closed and away bang on time. I would say that the DOO operation of Southeastern Metro/FCC etc offers absolutely no benefit on time.

As a guard and now driver I too am totally 100% against DOO, apart from cost savings...of which these are quite probably minimal. My last year as a guard I took a total in revenue of £32512. My salary plus extras came to around the 30k mark so do the maths. We have some fantastic guards who go out of their way to provide what customer service they can during distruption leaving the driver to deal with signallers/fleet/fixing trains etc.

I know guards have very little power late at night with troublemakers...but if the guard is in coach 4 the troublemakers will go hide elsewhere and those passengers who feel a bit unsafe can travel with the guard. No uniformed presence = free reign for scroats.

I've wondered just how DOO complies with DDA regulations. Sure people who are wheelchair bound can book in advance for someone to meet and assist at an unmanned station but what if at 2pm a disabled passenger thinks about popping out to town and the next train is in 10 minutes...but DOO and can't get on.

 

[pendolino]

I've wondered just how DOO complies with DDA regulations. Sure people who are wheelchair bound can book in advance for someone to meet and assist at an unmanned station but what if at 2pm a disabled passenger thinks about popping out to town and the next train is in 10 minutes...but DOO and can't get on.

I have in the past got out of the cab, gone back and got the wheelchair ramp out and helped a passenger in a wheelchair off the train when I had been told that due to staff shortage there would no staff at their destination to assist. If I hadn't have done so, the passenger would have had to be taken off the train early and put in a taxi. I didn't see why they should be inconvenienced just because we were short-staffed.

If I were to see a wheelchair user waiting to board and no staff around to assist, I'd do the same in that situation too.

 

[GadgetMan]

I have in the past got out of the cab, gone back and got the wheelchair ramp out and helped a passenger in a wheelchair off the train when I had been told that due to staff shortage there would no staff at their destination to assist. If I hadn't have done so, the passenger would have had to be taken off the train early and put in a taxi. I didn't see why they should be inconvenienced just because we were short-staffed.

If I were to see a wheelchair user waiting to board and no staff around to assist, I'd do the same in that situation too.

Thought I'd add I'm pretty sure the TOC doesn't get fined for a delay if it is down to assisting a Disabled passenger. I may well be wrong.

 

[455driver]

Personally I quite like the method that Southern have with the driver releasing the doors and the guard closing. Stop on the right car mark,

There is the problem, stop at the wrong car mark and the rear doors/ coaches are off the end of the platform and there isnt a guard to pick it up.

Full guard control for me (without all the wishy washy bull) can be just as fast (and possibly safer) than driver open/ guard close.

 

[bronzeonion]

There is the problem, stop at the wrong car mark and the rear doors/ coaches are off the end of the platform and there isnt a guard to pick it up.

Full guard control for me (without all the wishy washy bull) can be just as fast (and possibly safer) than driver open/ guard close.

I agree, I cannot see why a stop marker for the guard cannot be installed on the platform so the guard can release the doors as soon as the train stops.

 

[455driver]

I agree, I cannot see why a stop marker for the guard cannot be installed on the platform so the guard can release the doors as soon as the train stops.

Our guards should be patrolling the train (where possible) so a stop car mark would be useless, a good guard only needs a second or 2 to confirm the train is on and can make that back using the whistle anyway so no extended stops, plus the whole wheelchair bit plus if the driver stops short makes them useful.

 

[bronzeonion]

Our guards should be patrolling the train (where possible) so a stop car mark would be useless, a good guard only needs a second or 2 to confirm the train is on and can make that back using the whistle anyway so no extended stops, plus the whole wheelchair bit plus if the driver stops short makes them useful.

Don't SWT require guards to step onto the platform first or is a visual check okay? I've always seen the guards role as more of an operational role such as driver rather than a passenger facing train patrolling one so was implying the guard remains in the cabs when I mentioned stop markers.

 

[455driver]

Depends what week it is (it changes that often) personally I used to stand on the step so I could look over peoples heads, if I stepped off the train I could see about 2 foot in front of me as the passengers surged forward.

A good guard knows what should be outside the door when doing a station call during a walk through, I used to try to use the same door at the station, ie start in the middle, make my way to the back for the next (straight) station or 2, back to the middle for the next couple, up to the front for the next (straight) platform etc, some stations would dictate where abouts you needed to be, New Malden on the down you needed to (preferably) be in coach 6 because the back of the train is on a slight curve, you can see it from the middle by moving right across the platform but coach 6 gives the best view.

 

[TheEdge]

Here is something that I talked about with someone at work.

GOO.

Guard Only Operation. All over the world railway systems are being automated and the driver is disappearing. Look at the DLR, driverless but with on board staff. According to Wiki the Victoria, Central and Jubilee drive themselves with the 'driver' opening the doors. All over the world there are rail systems without drivers.

IMO it is more likely we will see the driver consigned to history, even a proprietary sim like Railworks can understand how to keep trains apart so a specifically built computer system would be able to do it and arguably safer than a human at the controls and the guard continue to exist either overseeing safety at the interface or simply there in a customer service role.