Services that were withdrawn that should be reinstated

[Eagle]

XC should extend some of their Bournemouth services to Weymouth on Summer Saturdays just like old times.

August 2012 wasn't "old times" :P

This would be a good idea though (even with 2tph it can get quite crowded during the school holidays). Just not sure it's the best use of XC's capacity at the moment.

 

[Drsatan]

August 2012 wasn't "old times" :P

This would be a good idea though (even with 2tph it can get quite crowded during the school holidays). Just not sure it's the best use of XC's capacity at the moment.

Instead of running 2tph to London Waterloo from Weymouth, I'd propose the following, depending on paths and rolling stock availability:

1) An hourly service from Weymouth to London Waterloo, running semi-fast to Bournemouth

2) An hourly service from Weymouth to Brockenhurst, calling at all stations.

 

[Eagle]

Instead of running 2tph to London Waterloo from Weymouth, I'd propose the following, depending on paths and rolling stock availability:

1) An hourly service from Weymouth to London Waterloo, running semi-fast to Bournemouth

2) An hourly service from Weymouth to Brockenhurst, calling at all stations.

Am I missing something here, because in the Dorset part of the line that's exactly the same as the current timetable.

Currently you get:
1tph Weymouth, Dorchester, Wareham, Hamworthy, Poole, Parkstone, Branksome, Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton...
and
1tph Weymouth, Upwey, Dorchester, Moreton, Wool, Wareham, (Holton Heath alt. hours), Hamworthy, Poole, Bournemouth, Pokesdown, Christchurch, New Milton, Brockenhurst, Southampton...

(and no you can't move the Parkstone and Branksome calls to the stopper, otherwise the two trains would collide.)

 

[SussexSpotter]

Obviously I'd hope the Spa Valley could be given a little help with relocating !

But where would they go???? Unless they did some sort of merge with the K&ESR.....but is that likely to happen???? Would there be enough space at the Bluebell Railway for them????.....they might welcome them what with the future Ardingly extension.....but I really don't know whether they would.

Was the Basingstoke/Reading service popular with through passengers ? (I'd have though the WOE through services would have been more useful).

I can see how a 2 car 170 would get rather crowded on the West Coastway though !

It's difficult to judge passenger loadings on this service and how many people that were using it travelled all the way.....all I remember was that the service was always busy and I think Dft were rather silly for axing it. If you had a good amount of luggage you would have been struggling to find space for it on a 170. Passengers standing up was very common!!! I would have thought that a fair number of through passengers would have used it as apart from the small number of Brighton XC services which went via Gatwick (2tpd), this was probably the best way of getting from Brighton to Reading.

The WOE services were probably more useful than the Reading's admittedly, but they just wern't frequent enough and only ran at weekends. I am pretty sure there would be a good market for a long distance service running all the way along the coast between Brighton and the WOE like the old days.....say Brighton-Penzance :P ....but for the service to be any use it needs to be frequent and reliable. Perhaps that's been the problem with some of the longer distance Brighton services in the past....lack of carriages....poor frequency....unreliable etc.

 

[yorksrob]

But where would they go???? Unless they did some sort of merge with the K&ESR.....but is that likely to happen???? Would there be enough space at the Bluebell Railway for them????.....they might welcome them what with the future Ardingly extension.....but I really don't know whether they would.

One thing we don't have a shortage of in this country is disused railways !

It's difficult to judge passenger loadings on this service and how many people that were using it travelled all the way.....all I remember was that the service was always busy and I think Dft were rather silly for axing it. If you had a good amount of luggage you would have been struggling to find space for it on a 170. Passengers standing up was very common!!! I would have thought that a fair number of through passengers would have used it as apart from the small number of XC services which went via Gatwick (2tpd), this was probably the best way of getting from Brighton to Reading.

The WOE services were probably more useful than the Reading's admittedly, but they just wern't frequent enough and only ran at weekends. I am pretty sure there would be a good market for a long distance service running all the way along the coast between Brighton and the WOE like the old days.....say Brighton-Penzance :P ....but for the service to be any use it needs to be frequent and reliable. Perhaps that's been the problem with some of the longer distance Brighton services in the past....lack of carriages....poor frequency....unreliable etc.

If there were a lot of through travellers on this route, perhaps thay could send some XC services that way.

 

[SussexSpotter]

One thing we don't have a shortage of in this country is disused railways !

True.....true!

If there were a lot of through travellers on this route, perhaps thay could send some XC services that way.

Its just finding the paths amongst the ridiculous number of slow Southern services, the section between Ford and Barnham is 8tph Off-Peak in both directions as it is and then there's the lack of passing places.

 

[Drsatan]

Am I missing something here, because in the Dorset part of the line that's exactly the same as the current timetable.

Currently you get:
1tph Weymouth, Dorchester, Wareham, Hamworthy, Poole, Parkstone, Branksome, Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton...
and
1tph Weymouth, Upwey, Dorchester, Moreton, Wool, Wareham, (Holton Heath alt. hours), Hamworthy, Poole, Bournemouth, Pokesdown, Christchurch, New Milton, Brockenhurst, Southampton...

(and no you can't move the Parkstone and Branksome calls to the stopper, otherwise the two trains would collide.)

Sorry I'm aware of that, the reason I made my suggestion was to avoid the situation today whereby Weymouth has two trains an hour to Waterloo, but they leave 13 minutes apart.

Of course, amending departure times from Weymouth so there's a more reasonable gap probably means reinstating double track between Moreton and Wool.

 

[Eagle]

Sorry I'm aware of that, the reason I made my suggestion was to avoid the situation today whereby Weymouth has two trains an hour to Waterloo, but they leave 13 minutes apart.

The only realistic way to do that would be to distribute the stops more evenly between the two trains.

 

[dannypye9999]

I totally agree, too many disused railways that could be re-opened and all the government are bothered about is spending billions on HS2.

 

[JamesRowden]

Its just finding the paths amongst the ridiculous number of slow Southern services, the section between Ford and Barnham is 8tph Off-Peak in both directions as it is and then there's the lack of passing places.

Today I was thinking that the old Guildford-Horsham-Shoreham line would have been a good route to run a Reading-Brighton service along (and some services from London if double track). However I expect that restoring the link wouldn't have a good enough business case at the momment (,maybe in the distant future).

 

[SussexSpotter]

I totally agree, too many disused railways that could be re-opened and all the government are bothered about is spending billions on HS2.

I would agree with this as well!

 

[CMS]

I agree with the sentiment for a 2tph Southern WLL service, however I think that the key market is commuters and local leisure traffic. A 2nd tph should probably not exceed Watford Junction or Tring, and would have to stop at all stations en-route. From my own observations, 4-car 377s are rammed going northbound until 2000 until WFJ, with standing room only to Wembley Central, and couldn't cope with the demands of juggling medium/long-distance passengers with short 30min trips, particularly given the tight WCML pathing situation. Looking at what Southern have done in the past during engineering works, I think it would be plausible to run the services to either Caterham, Tattenham Corner or potentially Three Bridges, thus providing a link between Gatwick and outer South London to inner South London.

Additionally, whilst it is not a WCML priority, I would appreciate an extra 1 or 2 stops on Tring services between Watford and Euston to provide an alternative to LO at QPW and WMB. It really pains me that you can get to St Albans in 18 mins from Central London on a clear run, but the quickest off-peak LO to Wembley is 25mins, which could decrease easily to 10-12 mins, which might seem unnecessary but as lovely as 378s are, the journey does feel awfully slow, particularly if you're catching an onward connection.

 

[Aictos]

The beauty of HS2 means more services will be able to run on both the WCML and ECML, don't forget the existing rail network is already seeing a lot of investment from longer carriages for both Southern and South West Trains to routes in the North being wired up to major works ie Hitchin flyover/Reading and Peterborough remodelling etc...

HS2 is good because it means more investment into the railways

 

[yorksrob]

That depends. If the HS2 service ends up requiring subsidy (as I believe is the case for the TGV) then I fear a decline and run down of regional services. Even before then we have to trust successor Governments to continue investing in the wider railway at the same time as building it.

 

[Metrailway]

That depends. If the HS2 service ends up requiring subsidy (as I believe is the case for the TGV) then I fear a decline and run down of regional services. Even before then we have to trust successor Governments to continue investing in the wider railway at the same time as building it.

Alistair Darling has declared that he is a 'HS2 sceptic' for similar reasons.

However, I don't want this good thread descending into a HS2 thread, as we have many HS2 focused threads on this forum!

Were there ever any Southampton/Portsmouth/Brighton/etc - Scotland services via the Northern half of the WCML?

I've always thought such a service would be used well. I've seen some historic data which seems to suggest that there is a decent demand between southerly stations such as Reading to northern WCML stations such as Preston and Lancaster despite the change needed.

 

[Buttsy]

Alistair Darling has declared that he is a 'HS2 sceptic' for similar reasons.

However, I don't want this good thread descending into a HS2 thread, as we have many HS2 focused threads on this forum!

Were there ever any Southampton/Portsmouth/Brighton/etc - Scotland services via the Northern half of the WCML?

I've always thought such a service would be used well. I've seen some historic data which seems to suggest that there is a decent demand between southerly stations such as Reading to northern WCML stations such as Preston and Lancaster despite the change needed.

Back in the day, the Dorset Scot used to run from Poole to Glasgow/Edinburgh using the WCML from Birmingham until it was decided that it was better to route these through Manchester and reduce the train to six coaches to ensure loadings were good. This carried on until XC when under Arriva and DfT changed it's parameters.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Alistair Darling has declared that he is a 'HS2 sceptic' for similar reasons.

However, I don't want this good thread descending into a HS2 thread, as we have many HS2 focused threads on this forum!

Quite right.....back on topic......

Were there ever any Southampton/Portsmouth/Brighton/etc - Scotland services via the Northern half of the WCML?

I've always thought such a service would be used well. I've seen some historic data which seems to suggest that there is a decent demand between southerly stations such as Reading to northern WCML stations such as Preston and Lancaster despite the change needed.

There was a Brighton-Edinburgh service known as the Sussex Scot which ran at one time, run with a Virgin 47 and MK2 stock.....that went via Preston if I recall. Later being taken over by a voyager.

 

[swt_passenger]

[concerning Brighton > Basingstoke > Reading]

It's difficult to judge passenger loadings on this service and how many people that were using it travelled all the way.....all I remember was that the service was always busy and I think Dft were rather silly for axing it.

Passenger loadings end to end were small. But the BCR of replacing the service with an hourly Southampton service was relatively high. Noting that the Southampton service actually runs all day. The Brighton-Basingstoke services were diverted to/from Portsmouth Harbour in the peak flow directions - and they still run - presumably because there are measurable passenger flows that inform the need for the trains..

Part of the reasoning behind removing the DMUs from the Basingstoke - Reading leg was to make room for additional freight paths.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Passenger loadings end to end were small. But the BCR of replacing the service with an hourly Southampton service was relatively high. Noting that the Southampton service actually runs all day. The Brighton-Basingstoke services were diverted to/from Portsmouth Harbour in the peak flow directions - and they still run - presumably because there are measurable passenger flows that inform the need for the trains..

Part of the reasoning behind removing the DMUs from the Basingstoke - Reading leg was to make room for additional freight paths.

Whilst you might consider the BCR to be higher running the Southampton service, do you not agree that the removal of ''any'' type of link between Brighton, Basingstoke and Reading completely was a pretty poor decision by the Dft???? As I said earlier nothing more than short-sightedness....

 

[swt_passenger]

Whilst you might consider the BCR to be higher running the Southampton service, do you not agree that the removal of ''any'' type of link between Brighton, Basingstoke and Reading completely was a pretty poor decision by the Dft???? As I said earlier nothing more than short-sightedness....

What I consider, is that if you read the relevant RUSs and franchise consultations from around the time, ie around 2005/6 - that there is ample evidence that it wasn't a random decision, but based entirely on where the real passenger flows were needed. A conscious decision was made based on the evidence that it was more use to run west coastway services to Southampton - where you can connect with trains towards Basingstoke/Reading anyway.

At the time the proposed withdrawal hardly raised any objections - only 10 people were interested enough to comment, compared to the 154 objections DfT received about Chandlers Ford's proposed service changes!

There again, we had the debate about this particular service before, back in May 2012, and you've raised nothing new this time. Your only point is that the service existed and you used it, therefore it is wrong to remove it. Why not just accept that change happens?

 

[tbtc]

Were there ever any Southampton/Portsmouth/Brighton/etc - Scotland services via the Northern half of the WCML?

IIRC there was a "Cross Country" service in BR days from Glasgow that ran via Carlisle - Wigan - Liverpool Lime Street (reverse) - Crewe - Birmingham and to the south coast.

I think it was more about "tagging different services together to provide some direct service" rather than any fast route from Glasgow/ Carlisle to the south coast. Handy for putting your Granny on to ensure that she didn't have to change I suppose.

 

[SussexSpotter]

What I consider, is that if you read the relevant RUSs and franchise consultations from around the time, ie around 2005/6 - that there is ample evidence that it wasn't a random decision, but based entirely on where the real passenger flows were needed. A conscious decision was made based on the evidence that it was more use to run west coastway services to Southampton - where you can connect with trains towards Basingstoke/Reading anyway.

At the time the proposed withdrawal hardly raised any objections - only 10 people were interested enough to comment, compared to the 154 objections DfT received about Chandlers Ford's proposed service changes!

There again, we had the debate about this particular service before, back in May 2012, and you've raised nothing new this time. Your only point is that the service existed and you used it, therefore it is wrong to remove it. Why not just accept that change happens?

I can accept change happens don't get me wrong, but the point is and as other forum members have mentioned on this thread, they were used by people to make through journeys. I only used them on the odd occasion.....however in my opinion retaining some form of a limited service would have been better than just withdrawing a service altogether.....

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Part of the change was to allow a "tidying up"of the west Coastway services , allowing Southern to put virtually everything onto a clockface pattern (there used to be some odd Soton /Pomo am peak trains) - there have of course , been some other developments since then ,not least some extra XC trains and Southern's improvements to the Arun Valley routes towards London and the Coast. Getting NR "In administration" to do more than a like for like replacement of the 2 aspect signalling north of Basingstoke to reading was hard work (but well worth it in improving the flow of trains on the corridor)

Fareham - Eastleigh hourly off peak remains a gap though ....

 

[bicbasher]

I'd like the reinstatement of through Southern services to Charing Cross, running the fast Tattenham Corner services during the day, then evenings as the Caterham stoppers (Tattenham Corner on Sunday).

 

[mister-sparky]

I'd like the reinstatement of through Southern services to Charing Cross, running the fast Tattenham Corner services during the day, then evenings as the Caterham stoppers (Tattenham Corner on Sunday).

They were scrapped due to the crossing movements at London Bridge restricting paths for SET services into Charing Cross. Once the remodelling work is done they would have been impossible.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Part of the change was to allow a "tidying up"of the west Coastway services , allowing Southern to put virtually everything onto a clockface pattern (there used to be some odd Soton /Pomo am peak trains) - there have of course , been some other developments since then ,not least some extra XC trains and Southern's improvements to the Arun Valley routes towards London and the Coast. Getting NR "In administration" to do more than a like for like replacement of the 2 aspect signalling north of Basingstoke to reading was hard work (but well worth it in improving the flow of trains on the corridor)

Fareham - Eastleigh hourly off peak remains a gap though ....

Whilst the Southern timetable might be virtually clockface, the FGW Brighton timetable is a real mess compared to the old Alphaline one.....having no real structure to it. Great Malvern trips Monday to Saturday and then Cardiff trips on Sundays. There's also a FGW service which runs between Portsmouth and Brighton during the morning peak.....and a Romsey service on a Sunday morning.

 

[Metrailway]

Back in the day, the Dorset Scot used to run from Poole to Glasgow/Edinburgh using the WCML from Birmingham until it was decided that it was better to route these through Manchester and reduce the train to six coaches to ensure loadings were good. This carried on until XC when under Arriva and DfT changed it's parameters.

Quite right.....back on topic......
There was a Brighton-Edinburgh service known as the Sussex Scot which ran at one time, run with a Virgin 47 and MK2 stock.....that went via Preston if I recall. Later being taken over by a voyager.

IIRC there was a "Cross Country" service in BR days from Glasgow that ran via Carlisle - Wigan - Liverpool Lime Street (reverse) - Crewe - Birmingham and to the south coast.

I think it was more about "tagging different services together to provide some direct service" rather than any fast route from Glasgow/ Carlisle to the south coast. Handy for putting your Granny on to ensure that she didn't have to change I suppose.

I presume these services were never "frequent" - similar to how Southampton has 1tpd to Edinburgh in modern times?

It is a shame that Brighton (and Gatwick) lost its XC services, especially as Brighton has a large urban area and is a popular destination in its own right. At least Portsmouth has access to XC services in nearby Southampton.

 

[SussexSpotter]

I presume these services were never "frequent" - similar to how Southampton has 1tpd to Edinburgh in modern times?

It is a shame that Brighton (and Gatwick) lost its XC services, especially as Brighton has a large urban area and is a popular destination in its own right. At least with Portsmouth, it has XC services in nearby Southampton.

Once a day from Brighton if I remember correctly and then a return service, so yes it was infrequent.....the Southampton service is 1 way only and no return service so not really that useful.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Whilst the Southern timetable might be virtually clockface, the FGW Brighton timetable is a real mess compared to the old Alphaline one.....having no real structure to it. Great Malvern trips Monday to Saturday and then Cardiff trips on Sundays. There's also a FGW service which runs between Portsmouth and Brighton during the morning peak.....and a Romsey service on a Sunday morning.

Agreed - a mess , and the DfT would not consider any change as they had bigger issues on GW - Romsey is there for route knowledge retention - as it was in W&W days. To be fair - the afternoon service off Brighton helps SN out in the peaks.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Agreed - a mess , and the DfT would not consider any change as they had bigger issues on GW - Romsey is there for route knowledge retention - as it was in W&W days. To be fair - the afternoon service off Brighton helps SN out in the peaks.

If the Dft could bring back the old style timetable that would be a lot better