Vehicle discussion. The SUV vs standard types of car.

[Bletchleyite]

But you only would use that for a gradual slow down.
If you're stopping at traffic lights or coming off a motorway junction you would mostly use friction brakes.

I mostly use engine braking for both of those, until the final stop. Though admittedly as a large diesel the Defender has particularly good engine braking.

If the motorway exit is uphill, you'll pretty much stop in most cars by the end if you just lift off the second you cross the dotted line.

 

[AM9]

I mostly use engine braking for both of those, until the final stop. Though admittedly as a large diesel the Defender has particularly good engine braking.

If the motorway exit is uphill, you'll pretty much stop in most cars by the end if you just lift off the second you cross the dotted line.

With a CVT drivechain I can get the car to keep a fixed speed downhill (it changes down through 'virtual gears' to keep the roadspeed within 4-5mph of the initial speed. It brakes the car down to 3-4mph on level roads. At the other end of the scale, I can join the M25 at J22 and leave it at J28 and aprt from slowing down on the slip to negotiate the bend on the roundabout, I usually don't touch the brake pedal at all. And yes, I can go 25-30000 miles on one set of pads.
A good EV will kick in with mechanical braking as late as possible, thereby extracting as much kinetic energy as possible for recharging.

 

[DerekC]

With modern vehicles I suspect weight and any aerodynamic differences are quite minimal between a SUV and mid-size once you have the same engines and other systems. Most 4x4s are smart and turn that off when not needed as if nothing else it wears the system if on road.

I am afraid this just ignores physics. Aerodynamics makes a difference which increases with the square of speed. Drag is proportional to frontal area, and it's more difficult to make an SUV a good aerodynamic shape because it's higher for its length, even if the modern fashion for making them brick shaped is ignored. And weight matters when starting and stopping - so heavy vehicles like SUVs are worse in urban traffic. Hybrids do get round that to some extent through regenerative braking, but they don't fix the aerodynamics and don't help at all at speed. Personally I find the procession of brick shaped large SUVs doing 85mph in lane 3 of motorways rather nauseating.

 

[Spamcan81]

I drive a Zafira which provides sufficient headroom for my 6 ft 5 in frame. Any time I try to get into a modern saloon, I have to twist my head round to 'limbo dance' through the door. I used to drive a Cavalier which was fine; modern saloons seem to offer lower ceilings or smaller doors.

I have a Zafira and it's a very handy little car. Great load capacity with the rear seats folded down.

 

[Ted633]

I very much doubt the brakes on any car would last 35,000 miles...

Just to wade in. I bought my Saab 9-3 on 35,000 miles. (Ex hire car, factory pads no longer fitted, but discs original).
I'm now on 166,000 miles, and I've not had to carry out any maintenance on my brakes, not even the front pads. I have a new set ready, but they're not going to be needed any time soon.

All my mileage is on motorways and I use a lot of engine braking, but just to prove brakes can last a long time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a Zafira and it's a very handy little car. Great load capacity with the rear seats folded down.

Good if you're a bit cold and need a fire going too

In all seriousness, MPVs are very practical, to the point that they've basically unseated the traditional estate entirely[1], and as I've contended above, most of the mainstream SUVs (I'm not talking Range Rovers or Defenders here, rather stuff like the Mokka) are pretty much just bodykitted MPVs.

[1] Demonstrated by the fact that the Mondeo is no longer in Ford's range.

 

[MotCO]

Just to wade in. I bought my Saab 9-3 on 35,000 miles. (Ex hire car, factory pads no longer fitted, but discs original).
I'm now on 166,000 miles, and I've not had to carry out any maintenance on my brakes, not even the front pads. I have a new set ready, but they're not going to be needed any time soon.

I've just had to replace my front pads on my Zafira after 112,000 miles, not because the pads were worn (I was told they were 23% worn), but because the discs were wearing out!

 

[MotCO]

Good if you're a bit cold and need a fire going too

In all seriousness, MPVs are very practical, to the point that they've basically unseated the traditional estate entirely

That's a bit harsh - I've had 2 Zafiras and done about 230,000 miles in them. I've had them serviced by main dealers and had very few problems with them. Only O2 sensors, 2 piston rings, 1 battery and steering lock replaced between them - clutch, exhaust etc still all original.

However, the question is what is the current equivalent of these MPVs? SUVs fill a slightly different market, estates aren't quite the same, so what do I replace my Zafira with?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a bit harsh - I've had 2 Zafiras and done about 230,000 miles in them. I've had them serviced by main dealers and had very few problems with them. Only O2 sensors, 2 piston rings, 1 battery and steering lock replaced between them - clutch, exhaust etc still all original.

It was just an offbeat reference to the fire-related recall of a few years ago.

However, the question is what is the current equivalent of these MPVs? SUVs fill a slightly different market, estates aren't quite the same, so what do I replace my Zafira with?

Interesting - I thought it was still on sale, seems it's not!

There are plenty of MPVs still on offer, in particular Ford have several, and there's the Citroen C4 Picasso which is a very similar vehicle in concept.

 

[Tetchytyke]

so what do I replace my Zafira with?

Ford S-Max or a Citroen C4 Picasso for a car-based MPV, or the Ford Tourneo Connect for more of a van-based one.

 

[Bobdogs]

I very much doubt the brakes on any car would last 35,000 miles...

Recently had the front pads changed on my Fabia estate after 34000 miles on mainly country lanes. Still had wear left on them.

 

[MotCO]

It was just an offbeat reference to the fire-related recall of a few years ago.

No offence taken - I think it was actually 3 recalls for the same thing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually, on the Zafira, here's a prediction - now PSA have bought out Vauxhall, we will see it back as a slightly restyled and badged C4 Picasso. The Vauxhall brand clearly has considerable goodwill value, as otherwise we'd all be driving round in Opels by now.

 

[corfield]

I am afraid this just ignores physics. Aerodynamics makes a difference which increases with the square of speed. Drag is proportional to frontal area, and it's more difficult to make an SUV a good aerodynamic shape because it's higher for its length, even if the modern fashion for making them brick shaped is ignored. And weight matters when starting and stopping - so heavy vehicles like SUVs are worse in urban traffic. Hybrids do get round that to some extent through regenerative braking, but they don't fix the aerodynamics and don't help at all at speed. Personally I find the procession of brick shaped large SUVs doing 85mph in lane 3 of motorways rather nauseating.

Speaking as an Aerodynamicist you seem confused.

What has velocity got to do with Car A and Car B being driven the same?
What has powerplant/regenerative braking got to do with the fact all vehicles do or could have the same system?


The drag equation is:

D = 1/2 x density x wetted area x CD x V^2

Since V isn’t changing (both vehicles being driven the same) it is irrelevant, as is density.

For drag coefficient (including form and skin friction), and a quick google as to numbers (apologies but in haste), suggests 0.3 for cars and 0.35 for SUVs.

Wetted area, in this case frontal cross section is apparently about 3m^2 for a SUV vs 2.3m^2 for a large saloon.

So comparing gives you 0.7 for a car and 1.05 for an SUV.

For context cars vary from CDs of 0.2 for a and Areas below 2.0m. I picked larger ones as these seem the logical comparison to SUVs but this shows cars themselves range from an indicative force of 0.4 to 0.7, (c.75% increase). SUVs compared to the larger cars are a c.40% increase.

I remain to be convinced this is significant when all the real world factors are included as for all the noise, I recall a car aerodynamicist telling me their job was to work out and try and improve the marketing/designers shape - rather than produce something aerodynamic and that they only mentioned if a PR angle was required - aerodynamics being not the driving part of efficiency.

The reality is, despite having a hatchback car, I do love the high up seating of SUVs, mainly for the view over all the road clutter and surroundings (not so much over other vehicles). I also drove slower, I assume due to the sense of cornering forces.

 

[corfield]

I very much doubt the brakes on any car would last 35,000 miles...

Doubt away but as others suggest, you are wrong.

I replaced the pads on my Mondeo at about 40k, just done again at 73ish, including a disk which had become scored. Most of my driving is cruising long distance. I’m hoping that really prolongs the car’s life as I won’t be able to afford a replacement for about 7 years! (Must avoid long rant about alimony!!!)

If you wait until the squeal is really bad you can eke a few more hundred out

 

[LOL The Irony]

[1] Demonstrated by the fact that the Mondeo is no longer in Ford's range.

It still is, I don't know where you're getting that information.

 

[corfield]

I mostly use engine braking for both of those, until the final stop. Though admittedly as a large diesel the Defender has particularly good engine braking.

If the motorway exit is uphill, you'll pretty much stop in most cars by the end if you just lift off the second you cross the dotted line.

Yet they stopped teaching engine braking in the late 90s as I was taught it but younger siblings weren’t.

The logic was modern (disc) brakes are far cheaper to replace than the wear that comes from engine braking. The latter had been essential with drum brakes due cumulative heating and fade.

AIUI you shouldn’t engine brake unless you want reduce engine life. It’s hard to tell ot course as in the same time so much has changed both making things last longer and shorter (disposable generation plus for brakes, removal of asbetos from pads meaning the disks have to be softer and thus rust/wear out quicker).

 

[corfield]

It still is, I don't know where you're getting that information.

In the US it isn’t (“fusion”) and I believe rest of world will follow as they aren’t doing another model. It’s market share nowadays is tiny vs even the 2000s.
The name may live on badged on some hybrid crossover type thing tbd.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In the US it isn’t (“fusion”) and I believe rest of world will follow as they aren’t doing another model. It’s market share nowadays is tiny vs even the 2000s.
The name may live on badged on some hybrid crossover type thing tbd.

The way Bletchleyite said it made it seem like the Mondeo had been axed completely. You are right about the SUV part though, Ford are supposedly replacing it, the S-Max and the Galaxy with 1 single 5/7 seat SUV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It still is, I don't know where you're getting that information.

I thought it already had been, but it's coming:

New Ford Mondeo to launch in 2021, official document reveals | Autocar

Parts tooling catalogue published on Ford of Europe's website suggests crossover-inspired Mk5 model will be a hybrid

www.autocar.co.uk

That might be called the Mondeo but it's an SUV, not a large, low estate.

 

[nlogax]

I thought it already had been, but it's coming:

New Ford Mondeo to launch in 2021, official document reveals | Autocar

Parts tooling catalogue published on Ford of Europe's website suggests crossover-inspired Mk5 model will be a hybrid

www.autocar.co.uk

That might be called the Mondeo but it's an SUV, not a large, low estate.

That is..one unfortunate-looking vehicle.

 

[Domh245]

That is..one unfortunate-looking vehicle.

It's a test mule - it's deliberately hodgepodge!

 

[corfield]

I very much doubt the brakes on any car would last 35,000 miles...

Apart from an EV!

And this was the US, 350 mile commute with 3 right turns! never even slowing as you come up behind something since you just eased off to let the 1 vehicle every 5 mins coming the otherway if you were exceptionally unlucky that it would have conflicted with an overtake!

So very little brake usage for the miles.

One journey the satnav said “bear left in 470miles”!!! Not even a turn!

 

[mmh]

The way Bletchleyite said it made it seem like the Mondeo had been axed completely. You are right about the SUV part though, Ford are supposedly replacing it, the S-Max and the Galaxy with 1 single 5/7 seat SUV.

SUVs / MPVs might be popular but they've not exactly killed the traditional estate off entirely yet.

Off-hand you can still buy one from Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Skoda, Vauxhall, Toyota, Kia, Mazda, Ford, no doubt others, and of course Volvo.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It still is, I don't know where you're getting that information.

Back in 2018 it was all but announced the Mondeo would be scrapped, but it looks like Ford have rowed back from there. TBF I thought it had been, they even did an obituary for the Cortina/Sierra/Mondeo lineage on The Grand Tour a while back.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Back in 2018 it was all but announced the Mondeo would be scrapped, but it looks like Ford have rowed back from there.

Well as much as news websites try, car companies still like to keep their cards close to their chests.

TBF I thought it had been, they even did an obituary for the Cortina/Sierra/Mondeo lineage on The Grand Tour a while back.

Funeral for a Ford sounds better than Last Rite for a Ford, and worked as a better segway into the fact it was the last ever show with an audience. They even mention how most of the sales are fleet or leased. Just because it isn't being bought by the general public, doesn't mean it's not being bought.

 

[corfield]

They even mention how most of the sales are fleet or leased. Just because it isn't being bought by the general public, doesn't mean it's not being bought.

When I bought mine as a private person they were shocked. When I declined finance and just bought it they were gobsmacked.

It was weird being on the receiving end of as I wondered what I was doing wrong!

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I bought mine as a private person they were shocked. When I declined finance and just bought it they were gobsmacked.

It was weird being on the receiving end of as I wondered what I was doing wrong!

Probably because almost nobody would buy a brand new Mondy when there are plenty of well-maintained ex-company 3-year-old ones out there for a far cheaper price! If you want a large traditional estate that's by far the best way to get one.

 

[gg1]

When I bought mine as a private person they were shocked. When I declined finance and just bought it they were gobsmacked.

It was weird being on the receiving end of as I wondered what I was doing wrong!

Finance companies will in most cases give a discount on the selling price in the form of a deposit contribution, effectively a marketing trick as if you pay the finance for the agreed length of the term (as 99% of people do), you'll still pay more in interest than the value of the discount, if you buy cash you won't get this discount.

For this reason if you want buy a brand new car with cash, the cheapest way to do so is, rather counter intuitively, to take out the finance and then immediately clear it, if you do so within 14 days you will be charged no interest or fees. If you're feeling generous and would like the salesman to get his commission, do so after 3 months instead and accept you'll pay a small proportion of the interest.

 

[corfield]

Probably because almost nobody would buy a brand new Mondy when there are plenty of well-maintained ex-company 3-year-old ones out there for a far cheaper price! If you want a large traditional estate that's by far the best way to get one.

Well that depends. I actually went in to buy a 2nd hand of 1-2 years, but the offer they made me on a new was so cheap (37% off list) that it was cheaper to get that. At that point the 2015 model was coming but not in full production, their fleet/company buyers were waiting that (which was delayed iirc) and they were keen to keep sales/factory occupied.

I actually paid less for the top end Mondeo than a colleague paid for a brand new fiesta the same month! Even 2 years later the resale price was still what I bought it for!

A luck confluence of factors but seemed to work for me. They were mostly amazed I wasn’t buying it on finance.